The UK swing Euro Defence, away from US interests!

Pretty major news, although its buried on the back page here...

Seems that the UK is breaking ranks with the US. I interpret this to be in preparations for adoption of the Euro and more or less abandoning the US in its fight between Germany/France, OPEC, and Russia.

This could get very very ugly....


Tony Blair, UK prime minister, has dismayed the Bush administration, which believes he has embraced European Union efforts to set up an independent military structure outside Nato.

The US has received mixed signals from London despite assurances from UK diplomats that Britain would seek to scupper such moves.

Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, raised the issue in a meeting with Britain's Geoff Hoon at the informal gathering of Nato defence ministers last week in Colorado. Condoleezza Rice, White House national security adviser, has telephoned Sir Nigel Scheinwald, Mr Blair's chief foreign policy aide, to express her concern.

news.ft.com.../StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480623454&p=1012571727085

Off the same page..

"There is no Europe without European defence. And there is no European defence without Britain"

Very good article, establishing one thing..

Britains attitude seems to be leaning toward..

If You Cant Beat Them, Join Them.

Just another country joining the ranks of a uncertain currency, that seems to becoming more certain all the time.

If You Cant Beat Them, Join Them.

welcome to earth.

Possible chain of events:

UK breaks ranks with US
UK adopts Euro, fully integrates with EU
All major EU nations pull out of NATO, effectively dissolving it.
OPEC, backed by military intimidation from Russia, fully adopts Euro as oil standard currency.
US suffers 911 style attack, gets justification to invade Saudi Arabia
Russia offers military assistance to all OPEC nations
Quickly spirals downward into WWIII

Something that has been nagging me, is that since the begginning of the Iraq war, our independant action against the best wishes of NATO, effectively eliminated NATO's global acceptance and perceived effectiveness.

No country can trust the US as a NATO member now, and since the US is the major military back of NATO, NATO on it's own (or shall I say, w/o the US) is ineffective except in the most minor squabbles. (That is unless the US provides support in some cases to give the impression of NATO perceived effectiveness.

Originally posted by smirkley
Something that has been nagging me, is that since the begginning of the Iraq war, our independant action against the best wishes of NATO, effectively eliminated NATO's global acceptance and perceived effectiveness.

No country can trust the US as a NATO member now, and since the US is the major military back of NATO, NATO on it's own (or shall I say, w/o the US) is ineffective except in the most minor squabbles. (That is unless the US provides support in some cases to give the impression of NATO perceived effectiveness.

I dont know that I agree with that totally.

I do agree that NATO is not about to get involved in any international conflicts unless it is of a direct European interest without US support and most importantly, financial backing.

However, NATO on its own in Europe, in the event of a conflict with direct European interests would be an absolute powerhouse.

The divide is happening and most are none the wiser save for the general anti U.S. feelings worldwide thanks to our military arrogance.

I would have never imagined the next world war would be like this and so blantantly money motivated, but here it is coming together. Democracy vs. democracy (if you can call any of them that) in a fight to see who controls the moolah.

I really hope there are people who have power over this situation notice this stuff and at least attempt to take action against it. Seems like such people do not exist.

Have relinquished their power to the governments of the world,and the banks which control the governments.
War is about money and resources and never has been about anything else.
The country that has the most resources to waste in a war is the one that wins.
The UK is tapped,the British empire is no more.
That's why they are leaning toward the EU,if they don't,they will get their asses kicked,the EU is too close by.

Originally posted by dragonrider
Pretty major news, although its buried on the back page here...

Seems that the UK is breaking ranks with the US. I interpret this to be in preparations for adoption of the Euro and more or less abandoning the US in its fight between Germany/France, OPEC, and Russia.

This could get very very ugly....


Tony Blair, UK prime minister, has dismayed the Bush administration, which believes he has embraced European Union efforts to set up an independent military structure outside Nato.

news.ft.com.../StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480623454&p=1012571727085

Tony Blair's toast. He's gonna havta tow the line w/the Brits from here on out.

Originally posted by dragonrider
Possible chain of events:

UK breaks ranks with US
UK adopts Euro, fully integrates with EU
All major EU nations pull out of NATO, effectively dissolving it.
OPEC, backed by military intimidation from Russia, fully adopts Euro as oil standard currency.
US suffers 911 style attack, gets justification to invade Saudi Arabia
Russia offers military assistance to all OPEC nations
Quickly spirals downward into WWIII

Interesting... but there are also other things to consider. Russia may still be powerful, but not as powerful as it once was (militarily speaking).

What would happen to the US bases in Europe? would they be requested to leave? or would they be force out? (if they are forced out, then that will surely spark a war)

Where would Venezuela stand on this? Doesn't Washington hold a lot of influence over them?

And also, where would China stand in a possible WWIII? Possibly they could make a move for Taiwan.

Originally posted by Daystar

Originally posted by dragonrider
Interesting... but there are also other things to consider. Russia may still be powerful, but not as powerful as it once was (militarily speaking).

What would happen to the US bases in Europe? would they be requested to leave? or would they be force out? (if they are forced out, then that will surely spark a war)

Where would Venezuela stand on this? Doesn't Washington hold a lot of influence over them?

And also, where would China stand in a possible WWIII? Possibly they could make a move for Taiwan.

1. The idea that Russia is so weakened is a complete fallacy.

2. Why would being forced out of Europe spark a war? There's no real reason to justify our presence in Germany, for example, anyway. (especially when our forces are spread so thin elsewhere.) In the years leading up to 9-11 the argument was there was no more legitimate purpose for NATO's exhistence.

3. Washington has very little influence with Venezuela, especially considering the administration's using the CIA to try and overthrow Chavez' government.

4. Europe wouldn't need us as an ally or for our protection if Russia and the EU became economic/military allies.

5. Taking Taiwain would be a big risk for China, in the nuclear sense. You can count them in on being in middle east going for the oil just like every other nation when the shyte hits the fan.

Yes, it seems the UK will get sucked into the EU and dissolved into the European federation, the days of its indepedance are long gone.

But, as East Coast said, we are logn over due for a withdrawal from Europe. I have said this often. When I was over there, we said this often even back in the 90s, NATO needs to go, We waste too much money on that damn alliance that is obsolete. Our troops want to return home, and we need to bring them home. Thus, a NATO withdrawal will benefit us in the long run, the amount of money we spend on it is ridiculous. And the troops over there are best back over here.
US troops in Korea I hope will follow suit. Hopefully, the UK will pull out of Iraq all together. That will build pressure upon us, and thus, perhaps force our withdrawal.
As for Britains fate, who knows? Will they be fully assimilated and borged into the EU? Or will this spark such rage, since Blair is already treading water over the Iraq intelligence scandal......will they swing conservative? Be interesting to see.

Regardless, I shall be happy tosee NATO disolved, I am tired of spending money on an alliance that no longer needs to exist.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yes, it seems the UK will get sucked into the EU and dissolved into the European federation, the days of its indepedance are long gone.

But, as East Coast said, we are logn over due for a withdrawal from Europe. I have said this often. When I was over there, we said this often even back in the 90s, NATO needs to go, We waste too much money on that damn alliance that is obsolete. Our troops want to return home, and we need to bring them home. Thus, a NATO withdrawal will benefit us in the long run, the amount of money we spend on it is ridiculous. And the troops over there are best back over here.
US troops in Korea I hope will follow suit. Hopefully, the UK will pull out of Iraq all together. That will build pressure upon us, and thus, perhaps force our withdrawal.
As for Britains fate, who knows? Will they be fully assimilated and borged into the EU? Or will this spark such rage, since Blair is already treading water over the Iraq intelligence scandal......will they swing conservative? Be interesting to see.

Regardless, I shall be happy tosee NATO disolved, I am tired of spending money on an alliance that no longer needs to exist.

With the rise of the European Union, there is no legitimate reason for our continued presence in Germany, for example. We were positioned there for their stability and security. They are quite stable and secure at this stage of the game. They need us to bolster their economies, but hardly for protection. Allying themselves with Russia will probably spell their doom in the longrun if history is any guide, but Russia will most likely broker some kind of security agreement with the EU (b/c of oil trade and the euro). This will further diminish our role. AND NATO IS OBSOLETE!!
Skadi is also 100% correct on the need to pull our troops off the Korean peninsula. Our forces desperately need to re-group and refresh for replacements in the Middle East. This would stave off the much dreaded draft, take the burden off our citizen soldiers (guard and reserves) and be economically prudent. There is NO honest and valid reason to have such a force size in Korea. China, Russia and Japan are quite capable of handling/containing N. Korea. It is also very much in their nations' best interest to keep the dictatorship in check. Besides, we have forces scattered and grouped near enough to be able to reach the Koreas lightening fast if need be. And remember, if the North was to invade the South at this very moment, with our unfortunate 38,000 speedbump troops in place, they would most likely be lost in the ensuing barrage of 40 missiles per hour. What's the point of their being there? The cold, hard truth is, N. Korea has to know, the United States would NUKE them all the way to the stone age.
We need our troops to regroup in the US to fortify our already overburdened soldiers in the theatres of hot war.

And so it begins...

US seeks showdown with EU over Nato
By Judy Dempsey in Brussels
Published: October 16 2003 18:20 | Last Updated: October 17 2003 8:12


The US has called an emergency Nato meeting to challenge the creation of a stronger security and defence policy for the European Union.


The call by Nicholas Burns, US ambassador to Nato, reflects growing unease among Pentagon officials over the way Britain wants to work more closely with its EU allies in building credible defence structures and better military capabilities. But it also highlights tensions in the transatlantic alliance, with the US seeing any future EU defence policy as a potential competitor to Nato.

The US move came as EU leaders were meeting in Brussels to discuss how to make European defence more effective in any new constitutional treaty. The draft treaty is being negotiated in the intergovernment conference that includes the 15 current member and 10 candidate states that join next year.

news.ft.com.../StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480651516&p=1012571727088

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yes, it seems the UK will get sucked into the EU and dissolved into the European federation, the days of its indepedance are long gone.

UK hasnt been independed since Dec. 1941..



It has been a US puppet..

Originally posted by dragonrider
And so it begins...

US seeks showdown with EU over Nato
By Judy Dempsey in Brussels
Published: October 16 2003 18:20 | Last Updated: October 17 2003 8:12


The US has called an emergency Nato meeting to challenge the creation of a stronger security and defence policy for the European Union.


The call by Nicholas Burns, US ambassador to Nato, reflects growing unease among Pentagon officials over the way Britain wants to work more closely with its EU allies in building credible defence structures and better military capabilities. But it also highlights tensions in the transatlantic alliance, with the US seeing any future EU defence policy as a potential competitor to Nato.

news.ft.com.../StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480651516&p=1012571727088

This is proof positive that NATO is obsolete and we have no reason to be in Germany.

Um, no Fulcrum, youre wrong.

The Us had no puppets until after the war. The UK wasnt one of them. They chose to side with us because of the benefit against the Nazis. Then it was the commies. Ultimately, tho, the UK has always been pretty much self determined, and have chosen to side with the US because it was of course benefical to do so. But they have never been our puppets. They have always had thier own kick ass military, thier own economy, independant from our interests. They usually coincide. But ultimately, they were perhaps the only country in Europe who wasnt suckered into Hitlers insanity about a unityed Aryan race, and they chose to stand against him when the rest of Europe thought he was the best thing since sliced bread.

Tony Blair after 9/11 decided to be Bush's puppet, this was pretty much the first time this # has happened. It was an unwise move on his part, a very foolish one, but one he made on his own. Had he stayed out and remained freindly, helpful, and neutral, he would have fared better in maintaining Britains relative position as a go between for Europe and the US. Thier position has always been that of a mediator since world war 2. Ultimately tho, they pretty much ran thier own show.

You also forget cultural ties, Fulcrum. America is a former British colony. Theres still old ties there. We speak the smae language. We still posses in many areas remnants of old English common law. Even our geographical structure and local govornments decend primarily from then (divisions of counties, ect). So the old ties still remain, and Britain traditionally has always been pretty much aloof from the rest of mainland Europe. For the longest time, they had much more in common with Us than they did the rest of Europe, which they have been traditionally at odds with.

But now British independance will probably go down the tubes as it gets sucked into the tentacles of the EU beast. I still think Britain should remain neutral. They have always fared pretty good alone, and in reality, they didnt need the US to kick the Nazis asses, though they were taking some serious licks, they were really crunching Hitlers balls too. They would have got pounded alot more, but eventually, they would have smacked Hitlers ass back into the dark ages, tho it would have taken a bit longer.

The Brits have always held thier own on thier own, thier economy the strongest, thier militart bar none the best in Europe, man for man. Now that they will get puleld into the EU, they will get dragged down, thier military assimilated into the EU military, thier economy will take the lag from all the lesser Euro economies it must support. And of course, they will eb subject even more to the whims of the beast. Eventually, the EU will dissolve nations period. Losing the currency is the start.

Its a shame too, tho Britain has been holding out admirably, and had Blair not been such a moron and jumped on Bush's hell train to iraq, britain would probably not have been forced into this nightmare.

So if Britain is soon to be eaten up by the EU, we have no one but ourselves to blame .

Now Britain WILL become a puppet state unless they can wrangle the EU control away from the French/German cartel.

Skandi,

Sorry but i cant agree with you on this..

EU is good mmmkay?



UK is US puppet mmmkay?



Or..



It could well be anoother way around..



And britts still actually have much power over US..

As with this whole Iraq thing.. the main liar was Blair..

Bush only told those same lies to the US citizens after Blair had told those in UK..



Either way.. UK and US are almost united..

Repeat after me, Fulcrum.

EU is NWO mmkkkkkkaaayy?

Britain was the mother nation of the US, mkaaay?

Thus, Britain has always maintained closer ties to US than rest of Europe has because we were thier former colony and still possess old ties, mmmkaaaayyyy?

Britain does indeed have some influence over the US in some matters, mmmkaayyyyyyyy?

Britain ahs traditionally done what Britain wanted to, mmkkaaaayyyy?

Britian has not been anyones puppet in Eons, mmkkaaaayyyyy?

Britain will become EU drone. NOT OK.

It is hard for Europe to accept that Britain has always survived on its own, can survive on its own, and does quite well ON ITS OWN...........something the rest of Europe is VERY bitter and jelous of.

EU, as you have stated before in another thread, was HITLERS idea. WE have seen many of HITLERS ideas. This is one of many of his IDEAS. And look where Hitlers IDEAS landed you guys.

So, the EU, Hitlers idea, that tells you something RIGHT THERE.

EU IS NOT GOOD. If the EU was simply a united military front and political platform where Europe could form a united defense force to replace NATO, resolve grievances, and work on thier own affairs and polcies and stay out of trouble for once, Id give it my #ing blessing.

BUT THE EU IS NWO.NWO IS NOT GOOD.

For a nation with a huge history and solid culturral idenity, swallowing Britain itno the hegemony of the EU is dispicable. Let lesser countries with no chance on thier own play in the EU. Britain on its own has been pretty much a defeat to any other arguements. They dont need the EU. They dont need the US.

Skandi,

Wrong again..

USA and American Century are the NWO!