Berlin Wall Type Defense is the only proven way to keep mexicans out of US

I can't completely make up my mind on the immigration issue, but I'll try to point out several things.

1. If the borders are open for anyone to walk across easily, someone wanting to attack the United States will use that to their advantage someday.

2. If you were part of a poor family that wanted a better life, wouldn't you cross into the United States to get that life?

3. If a wall is built, it will be used to keep citizens IN the country in the future.

4. Hiring the illegal aliens for sub-minimum wage is wrong and should not be legalized with an immigrant work program. I support a program such as that, allowing them to legally enter for a set period of time and work, but they need to be paid minimum wage. They're humans as well and they shouldn't be paid sub-human wages. Of course, when the companies are forced to pay minimum wage, the demand for immigrant workers will go down and the problem of mass entries may be fixed right there.

5. There is an extremely large amount of empty space in the United States. We could have 10 new major cities and still have massive amounts of countryside. The people who say "The US is full!" just seem racist and/or stupid to me.

Originally posted by universalpnp
i just wonder that with all your toe the line politics and status quo statistics how you managed to be an above top secret moderator.

The last whine of the irrational and ignorant. You ranted about people not looking at 'the facts', and then when they were presented, you question the integrity and intelligence of the person presenting actual data and slam the site in general.

I personally do not mind spilling the blood of foreign invaders just like we are spilling the blood of Arabs every day.

You 'don't mind"??? The people that actually fought to help make and preserve this country certainly minded, but they did their duty against a real threat, not fantasized about killing brown people.
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well it looks like the moderators are united

United? What, we're part of some front? Because most of us aren't ignorantly concerned about illegal immigration? Because most of us bothered to look at the evidence and saw that illegals aren't responsible for some new crime wave or economic breakdown??? Because some of us have come to recognize real threats to the US?

is that they are sympathizers of the illegal foreign invaders or they are trying to protect their website from litigation or censure

The owners of this site have no interest in regulating what the moderators here say, they let us be who we are and say what we want. Who's telling you what to say?

moderators? please help?

If oyu want to insert an url, all you need to do is paste the address.

xphilesphan
you wont be able to convince people it is a problem until its too late

He won't be able to convince people if he doesn't present evidence to back up his claims, or if that evidence doesn't actually support his claims.

don white
It is the R&Fs that hire illegals. The Rich and Famous. Most R&Fs are Republicans.

Huh? The people that have small landscaping companies are Republicans? THe people that are contractors, plumbers, that install dry-wall, etc, they are Rich and famous???
Also, the republican party is the one advocating the most extreme anti-illegal measures, in particular making it a felony to hire and pay an illegal.

This mass immigration into the states (if made legal) is going to completely destroy our job opportunities as the middle class (and majority) of america.

Half of hte population of mexico isn't going ot spontaneously and simultaneously cross the border tommororw, illegal immigration will continue at normal rates, sometimes increasing, other times decreasing. The middle class isn't going to be destroyed, and lots of people in the middle class directly are benefited by or even outright supported by the illegal workers. Who do you think is hiring those guys on the street corners? Ken Lay? Bill Gates???

You could tag every illegal caught and shipped back!

And how do you catch them? Kick down doors and demand birth certificates? Will people have to carry their birth certificates in their wallets on the street? Where's your birth certificate at the moment? Could you produce it?

Do we really want federal police on the streets and in our houses looking for documentation, paying for all that, in order to do what again?

logan cale
. If the borders are open for anyone to walk across easily, someone wanting to attack the United States will use that to their advantage someday.

The problem with this thought is that a terrorist group can allways evade any kind of reasonable security at the borders, and that the only peopel that have ever tried to commit acts of terrorism came across the canadian border or just entered the country through the airports. More security at the border makes sense, but we'd have to build a shell around the whole country to keep individual terrorists out.

Hiring the illegal aliens for sub-minimum wage is wrong and should not be legalized with an immigrant work program.

Indeed. In many instances, they are used as slave labour, threatened with death and violence, such as in Lake Placid on the produce groves. There's no reason for americans to stand for that kind of crap. And the fact that they've broken the law to get here, thats a crime, we should'nt have to pretend that its not.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people in, this wall is meant to keep people out

That's an important difference.

Nope, same difference... That is how it all starts.

Originally posted on Opinion Journal by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger

An Immigrant Writes - Keep the doors of this country open

Already we hear so much talk about so many false choices. We are told that in a free society it's not possible to have border security. We are advised that in order to secure the borders, we must deport 12 million people. Never mind that we don't know who they are or where they are, and that it could cost up to $230 billion to do it.

Source:www.opinionjournal.com...

Originally posted on The New York Times

Cost of Illegal Immigration May Be Less Than Meets the Eye

But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.
[...]
It is sensible to expect that, because they were willing to work for low wages, they would undercut the position in the labor market of American high school dropouts.

This common sense, however, ignores half the picture. Over the last quarter-century, the number of people without any college education, including high school dropouts, has fallen sharply. This has reduced the pool of workers who are most vulnerable to competition from illegal immigrants.
[...]
In addition, as businesses and other economic agents have adjusted to immigration, they have made changes that have muted much of immigration's impact on American workers.

For instance, the availability of foreign workers at low wages in the Nebraska poultry industry made companies realize that they had the personnel to expand. So they invested in new equipment, generating jobs that would not otherwise be there. In California's strawberry patches, illegal immigrants are not competing against native workers; they are competing against pickers in Michoacán, Mexico. If the immigrant pickers did not come north across the border, the strawberries would.

Source:www.nytimes.com...

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Marz]

I think thats the most rediculous thing ,sounds like another media ploy to get people off the truth,something like that always brings the redneck mentallity out,while they are slowly taking away the Constitution,I think the problem is we Americans for most part are lazy,rather than do some research we listen to the news,I had employees majority in the union,try and hold an intelligent conversation with them,and this is the higher echelon on construction workers,they have no idea og laws taxes etc,they are sheep listening to their union bosses,and I have to say a few that were getting their citizenship had to study the history of America,and have a better understanding of our country then Joe worker,it's become the American way unfortunately to point fingers when things get bad,next time you turn on your TV or radio,if you have name brand,can be assured the American country farmed out the work over the border,seems kids these days are quick to judge,and as for the future it really scares me,oh well I'm old and hopefully I'll be taking a dirtnap when thses lost sheep are in power

Originally posted by universalpnp
Sure they used machine guns and land mines. But they served more as a deterrent than a practical barrier. These are times in which we must secure more brutal and inhumane options if we are to survive politically, economically, and most of all culturally. The time is now.

I kind of agree with you. A good wall would certainly make it a lot more difficult for illegals to cross into the US, which would obviously be a good thing. However building a Berlin Wall with armed guards and land mines on the US-Mexico border would just be almost impossible to accomplish.

First, I think you're the neglecting the fact that the Berlin wall was there to split a city in half. Here, you would be separating two entire countries. And let me remind you that the US-Mexico border is 3131Km long, as opposed to the 155km.

Secondly...damn, I just can't believe I was about to explain why building a Berlin Wall on the US-Mexico border would not be a good thing. Sorry, but it's not something, I think, a well educated person with average cognitive capabilities would not understand.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
How does your wall deal with tunnels?

If you have an answer for the tunnel problem, the Israelis would surely love to know.

I got the best idea!

1 - 2 chain link fences, 12 feet apart, running in parallel the entire length of the boarder.

2 - Dig a trench 15 feet deep and 6 to 8 feet wide between the fences to prevent *most* tunnels, yes there will be overachievers who dig 50 feet down but the majority are relitively challow tunnels as of now.

3 - Fill the trench with water and make an artificial river connecting the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean.


Solves the tunnel problem.


I'm not against these people coming here legally, only illegally.
Illegals hurt the economy.
They take what used to be medium to high paying jobs and work them for next to nothing.
Also they work "tax free" meaning the local economies lose money.

Anyone that wants to come to America should be allowed to, but they should be do it the right way, legally.

posted by Nygdan

logan cale
“. . If the borders are open for anyone to walk across easily, someone wanting to attack the United States will use that to their advantage someday.

The problem with this thought is that a terrorist group can always evade any kind of reasonable security at the borders, and that the only people that have ever tried to commit acts of terrorism came across the Canadian border or just entered the country through the airports . . we'd have to build a shell around the whole country to keep [determined] terrorists out. [Edited by Don W]

Q. Assuming Osama is as smart as we are, and the Geo W mantra that “terrorists hate us because of our freedom” and granting the porousness of our southern border, and our northern border as you pointed out, then WHY has not the al Qaeda attacked America anytime since the Nine Eleven Event?

[edit on 4/17/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Freeman
This immigration business is . I was born on the earth and i move about on the earth as a please. I want to move to Australia for example and theres no way those down in Canberra can stop me from doing it.

Sorry to rain on your parade buddy, but you clearly have no idea how difficult it is to get into Australia these days. The same goes for the USA. Being a true Brit and a lover of that great country, I would dearly love to be able to live and work in the US, but there are so many horrendous restrictions placed in our way that very few Brits can get in.

If you are a US citizen, can I ask you please to write to your Congressman and ask him or her to go easy on us Brits and let us in. We are your friends!!!

Originally posted by mrjones
Fill the trench with water and make an artificial river connecting the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean.

Considering that there is an ocean seperating florida from cuba, I don't think that this would make much of a difference.

Anyone that wants to come to America should be allowed to, but they should be do it the right way, legally.

Indeed. Immigrants in the past have done that, Ellis Island is a part of US culture and internal history, it was a way in which people got to the US illegally. Now the replacement for ships comming it to NY and seeing the Statue of Liberty is Death Trains from mexico and people packed into shipping containers.

We should make is easy for a person that can show that they're not a criminal to come to the US, we shouldn't have quotas and all the rest. That'd take the pressure off people to use dangerous illegal means to get to the US.

then WHY has not the al Qaeda attacked America anytime since the Nine Eleven Event?

Lets not get off topic here.Valid questions, but lets stick to immigration proper here.

I don't think it is correct to call a U.S. border fence and th Berlin Wall a similiar situation, as the Berlin wall was to keep people "in" East Germany. And a wall on the US and Mexico border would be to keep people out.

People want to come here. East Germans wanted to leave.

For the wall to work, yes it will have to be secured with armed military.

Yes, invaders crossing our border in mass should be shot.

It will take a few thousands bodies, but after that, the floww would slow down to a trickle of what it is today.

Also we need to make the law, illegals are illegal, even if they have kids born in us, they are illegals and get deported back with their parents.

Yes, there are illegal aliens from other countries coming here too, ok.
But I put it to YOU, what percent of illegals , now, are from mexico (in california, texas) as opposed to other countries?

I don't know, but i bet it would show the far and away majority woulf be mexican.

Furthermore, if Mexico does not like it:

1)Tuff cookies
2)What are they really going to do about it? Wine and cry-too bad, control YOUR border with US!
3)we take all aid money going to mexico and use it to beef up our border with Mexico

No, they should not be shot. For what, the crime of wanting a better life? It may be illegal and it may need to be stopped, but shooting the people is not what to do.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
It will take a few thousands bodies, but after that, the floww would slow down to a trickle of what it is today.

Thats really not worth killing thousands over.

Also we need to make the law, illegals are illegal, even if they have kids born in us, they are illegals and get deported back with their parents.

Er, no.

A person born in the US is a citizen of the US, even if they are 'brown'. They are just as much a citizen as you are.

what percent of illegals , now, are from mexico (in california, texas) as opposed to other countries?

Whats easier and cheaper, building a wall across mexico, or doing screening at the airports?

we take all aid money going to mexico and use it to beef up our border with Mexico

And then the situtation in mexico becomes worse, and you have more people crossing the border, easily bypassing the wall.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Nygdan, you are wrong!

Using armed defence of our borders WILL slow the flow of "ILLEGALS" from Mexico to a trickle of what it is today. I noticed you did not deny what i said, so you must agree that it slow the flow.

You said, it was not worth it, what is securing the US border worth? For that matter, do you live on a border state? If not, you do not have a real feel for the situation-imo.

I said,"Also we need to make the law, illegals are illegal, even if they have kids born in us, they are illegals and get deported back with their parents.

"we need to MAKE the law, clearly emplying it is not that way now!

As for the child of 2 illegall's, no, it should not be just as much of a citizen as someone who is born of 2 US citizens. The child is a mexican child of 2 mexican parents.

If someone, anyone, comes to the US LEGALLY, works for me. It is the FLOOD of ILLEGAL's that causes the problem.

[edit on 4/17/2006 by mrmonsoon]

Interesting posts. First, I would like to state I do live on a border town. I do see the problems and the benifits of the illegale workers coming into the area. One of the main problem is that you never know what that person is here for. Yes terrorism is a factor, but a small one, but you never really know. I also know another problem is from the law suits that affect some states like AZ, where the immigrant, crossing illegally, goes into the desert and dies, and then their home country sues for wrongful death. Another is the disease factor. That is why it is important that immigrants do such legally. And the smuggling of drugs into this country. (In a city which has to deal with such.) And the smuggling of other illegale items into this country. Yes have seen the tunnels. Must admit the last one, well that was done professionally. Ok now that was the bad side of things. The up side is that they are an important part of the economy as much as some would hate to admit it. They provide, although in my opinion, a service but are severly underpaid. Here is the question that you have to ask yourself. How much are you willing to pay for say a salad? Or a hamburger? Or a pound of meat? The impact of what they contribute can be seen at the local grocery store. Many of the fresh produce and foods that are consumed everyday, chances are, was picked by an illegale immigrant and that is what keeps some of the costs way down. What I do disagree with is that many companies and farms use those laborers as a means to keep costs down. To be paid less than the mimium wage is wrong no matter what. Many illegale immigrants are afraid to go to any health establishments, especially if they are sick, as then there is the chance that they may get pulled and sent back to their home country, and that in itself is wrong and should not be a factor. However for most it is. Yes it is true that we as a country are struggling. And yes we do have limited resources. But the laws have to be changed in order to give all involved a fair and lawful resolution. It has been stated by the Mexican President Fox, that in 10 years America will be crying and begging for the illegales to come back. Don't know, but I do know that the first thing to correct this is to start doing what we should have been doing all along, the work ourselves. As distasteful as it is, it may mean that we will have to get up, go out, pick that tomatoe, scrub that toliet and do the work that we do not want to do. The laws have to be changed, but I would encourage, as much as some will say I am wrong, that for illegales to turn themselves in, all of them. By doing such, it would do 2 things. One is put a burden on Congress to get their acts together and come up with laws that would be fair on the illegale immigrants, and would allow them to come in, after all it would also show how much of an impact on the economy the immigrant community makes.


only way to change a rule is to follow it exactly as written.

A wall would be nice. Moats are better. Like the idea of a river from the gulf to the pacific. Just make it deep.

Of course it wont stop them all. But it will slow them down. Reduce the flow.

A few warning shots will deter most. If not, let them come across. Don't kill them (funny hearing that from me, eh?). Just escort them back across at gunpoint. If they put up a fight, take off their foot. That would get the point across.

I don't have a problem with the current illegal population. I say let them stay, but under a few conditions:

Flying a Mexican flag results in immediate deportation without trial.

Possession of a gun results in immediate deportation without trial.

Anchor babies must learn English or they will not be permitted to enroll in public education.

All cash wire transfers to Mexico will have a 50% tax. This will not apply to bank-to-bank transfers, only cash transactions.

Require positive identification on all welfare recipients/applicants.

All this should do a good job of descriminating between the illegals that are honestly here to work and try to be American, and those who are here to sell drugs and form mafia connections.

I have no problem at all for those who come here strictly to make a living HERE, not send all their money back to Mexico.

I do have a problem with every single illegal I have ever knowingly met. My current area of residence has a high illegal population. It is also high in robberies, car jackings, vandalizing, drug dealing, and generally undesirable behavior (the illegals living above me like to vomit and urinate out their windows).

Statistics saying crime goes down in illegal areas are all well and good, but they must be somewhere else because they definitely are not looking here.

I wish the Native Americans would have had a wall to keep the Euros out.

Originally posted by Stunkums
I wish the Native Americans would have had a wall to keep the Euros out.

Perhaps the fear I see in these post are valid. After all, some of my ancestors were responsible for driving others of my ancestors out of their lands. Are they afraid that the illegal aliens will do to them what their own ancestors did to the natives?

Originally posted by universalpnp
Accourding to the Washington based Pew Hispanic Center, half of all Mexicans surveryed said they want to come to the US. With a country of about 50,000,000 that means that if they get their way, we will accept 25,000,000 more illegal aliens than are already here. In our country of about 280,000,000 and our cities already inundated with legitimate immigrants an citizens it does not make sense that we allow our present border security apparatus, which let 500,000 in last year alone, to continue to operate as is.

From 1961 to 1989 the post war icon known as the Berlin Wall was the most efficient border security device ever constructed. Before 1961, 2.5 million people fled from East Germany to West Germany unchecked. After construction ONLY 5,000 people snuck across in 28 years. Folks thats only 178 per year compared to half a mil. Sure they used machine guns and land mines. But they served more as a deterrent than a practical barrier. These are times in which we must secure more brutal and inhumane options if we are to survive politically, economically, and most of all culturally. The time is now.

So your solution to the problem is to use the same draconian tactics the Communist used, if thats the case then kiss the The Bill of Rights and The Consitution good Bye.