Berlin Wall Type Defense is the only proven way to keep mexicans out of US

To me, it is disgusting and shameful - unworthy of a great nation - to even talk about such a monstrosity as a wall on our border. I remind everyone, a wall works both ways, it keeps people out and it keeps people in. Just ask the Chinese.

America, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. Oh, Ye of Little Faith. A Nation Without Vision is Doomed.



[edit on 4/16/2006 by donwhite]

Do you know why the Mexicans and everyone else for that matter are coming here? Because we hire them. The fault is just as much ours as it is theirs.

If I had been born in a third world country, i'd have migrated to this one 40 or so years ago myself.

It not wrong to help yourself and your family to a better life.

Just my thoughts,

[edit on 16-4-2006 by mrwupy]

should we put up a wall around our coastline also? put machine guns in trees, moats around mexico and canadian borders to stop tunnels? cut off alaska for the sake of keeping people out of the country?

posted by mrwupy: “Do you know why the Mexicans and everyone are coming here? Because we hire them. [Edited by Don W]

I am retired. In all my life I have never hired an undocumented person. I am a P and P-er. Poor and poorer. It is the R&Fs that hire illegals. The Rich and Famous. Most R&Fs are Republicans. Most P and P-ers are Dems. They don’t hire the illegals.

“The fault is just as much ours as it is theirs. If I had been born in a third world country, I’d have migrated to this one 40 or so years ago myself. It not wrong to help yourself and your family to a better life. Just my thoughts, [Edited by Don W]

Almost all of us are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Disregarding the Native Americas and the Africa Americans. Immigrant implying voluntary.

Let me remind all posters here, Not One Mexican (or other Latinos) Has Ever Been Arrested For An Act of Terrorism!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If our government wanted to keep illegal immigrants out, they could. It serves the big corporations to pay smaller wages to whomever will do the job and let the middle class fend for themselves. In fact, they're sending the middle class jobs overseas.

I really don't think your perceptions are accurate here. The truth is we, the middle class, like inexpensive goods and services and we can't have that and pay union wages at the same time. The corporations go for the cheap labor because that allows them to hold prices down to meet our demands. As far as middle class jobs going overseas that's basically for the same reason. It may hurt to realize it, but American workers have basically priced themselves out of the manufacturing marketplace. Factories relocate overseas to take advantage of low labor costs and they do it because we demand low costs & inexpensive goods. If we kept all our factories here, labor costs would make our products non-competitive with those produced by other countries.

And don't try to blame it on the big profits of big corporations either. If you really look at the profit margins those big corporations make you will see them all pretty much coming in around six to ten percent--which is not excessive at all. Further, those profits are largely returned to the shareholders of the corporations, which are mostly middle class people just like you and me.

If our government cared about protecting the people of this country from foreign threats who mean to do us harm, they they would. But they don't.

I have to differ with you here as well because by-and-large our government does a pretty damn good job of protecting us from foreign threats.

The fact that we have an illegal immigration issue isn't about building a wall, it's about our government doing what's in our best interest. Which they don't.

The fact that we have an illegal immigration issue is mostly a political pig in a poke. The fact is, we need the workers that come across the border--legally, or otherwise because of the reasons already pointed out and because most people here don't want, and won't do the jobs being done by them. If you'll step back and closely examine this whole "issue" I think you'll see that the government is doing what we have indicated by our actions (not our words) that we believe to be in our best interests.

On your last point, I totally agree--the poster obviously has not thought the issue through and is just making emotionally based statements that will not stand up to scruitny.

I am COMPLETELY INFURIATED that we are legalizing these illegal immigrants!!!!!!!! If this country wasnt run by a bunch of corporate b*stards who are concerned only about money, the finger would be pointed at the corporations hiring illegal immigrants rather than our CONSTITUTION! Nobody in washington has said a single thing about the people hiring these illegals, and simply say "No Americans would take these jobs". Maybe not for .50cents an hour!!! This is slave labor cash and the people whom hire these people are violating SEVERAL LAWS and are being COMPLETELY IGNORED!! This mass immigration into the states (if made legal) is going to completely destroy our job opportunities as the middle class (and majority) of america. Also, what is stopping terrorists from sneaking into our country and becoming legal citizens before forming underground mobs, mafias, and gangs in an attempt to destroy the United States from the Inside out!? How much more effective do you think they will be if they are legal residents of the United States?!?! Sorry but this is a pretty personal subject for me, and I am concerned about the job outlook after millions of people become legal residents. Millions of people as equally as qualified as our ever growing number of highschool dropouts who are willing to work for minimum wage forever. The future is looking bleak.

Originally posted by universalpnp
all i guess i can say about the moderators here is that they are sympathizers of the illegal foreign invaders or they are trying to protect their website from litigation or censure which is a more likly motive. It is a great site to be sure, but it is getting a little too large to micromanage.

and one post later

Originally posted by universalpnp
and believe it or not i am new to this blogging thing so i might not be able to insert my source hyperlinks because i cant turn my html on. moderators? please help?

For real now :shk:

In regards to your first rant I would direct you to Moderators Are People Too. (and they have opinions). Here on ATS the moderators are and do post thier opinions on various matters. Most of us were selected by the admin from the membership at large and only a few of us are actually AI or Greys. What you see here is our opinions on the matter not some attempt to limit liability and the like. Instead of spending your time with pointless attacks which make you seem desparate to NOT answer any questions beyond spewing one liners, sound bites questioning the motives of staff, and etc, maybe actually articulating your thoughts and ideas. An argument that has to be defended by the tactics shown above is a poor one indeed

In regards to your second question which comes right after you accuse the staff of being what was it???? AH yes sympathizers of the illegal foreign invaders" in which you as for of all things help from us bunch of sympatizers I would direct you to these threads:

Posting work written by others. **ALL MEMBERS READ**

and

Kano's Instant Board-Rage Solution.

and

ABOUT ATS: General ATS discussion etiquette

here's a better idea: RFID towers and RFID tagging. Think of the uses! You could tag every illegal caught and shipped back! So when they tried to come again, they would alert you, and you'd catch another group with them...and if that's not enough, think of how that would make our most paranoid members froth at the mouth! I think it would be the best solution...but like another has said, the problem is that there is no interest in enforcing the law....

like alot of people have already said, I don't hate illegals at all.

I hate the fact that the base wage hasn't risen in nearly a decade.
(why bother when an illegal will work for half that)

I hate the fact that prices rise by the day but in a way that doesn't blip inflation numbers. (why bother posting true numbers when the M3 report and other brakes on unrestricted printing of fiat currency are systematically deconstructed)

I hate the fact that people just trying to survive are pitted against each other all in the name of profit margin. (me and pedro have more in common than any chairman of the board after all)

I hate the fact that nightly news does it's best to play the divide and conquer game to keep all poor people increasingly that way (as above, me and pedro are buddies except when it comes to a farcical immigration issue designed to keep both of us poor)

I hate the fact that skin color determines who I should hate and ostracize. (I have friends of all colors from numerous places around the globe, why mexico should be different I don't know)

I hate the fact that I am told to ignore one sort of crime but hate drug dealers like I hate those that ran concentration camps. (irregardless of how much I like some of the people I've met they are here illegally and are by default criminals by their presence. When I committed crimes I never once asked for leniency or expected it because it was the only way I had to support myself..... Why am I required to give anyone else a free pass when they are committing a crime by being here?)

Screw terrorism.

I swear half the crap I read here is regurgitated straight from foxnews.

I dont know about you guys, but before the eleventh of september, two thousand one I RARELY heard about terrorist. Those nasty little arabs who want to decapitate me and drink my blood. I cant watch the new for more then 2 minutes without hearing about the latest Osama gossip. Now its spilled into Mexico. Everything "they" (whoever they are) want you to support/hate uses terrorism to get "their" point across. Its driving me nuts.

Obviously Osama is responsible for our huge deficit, we might have better medicare if if wernt for those darn terrorist. Damn extremists ran over my dog.
Moussaoui ate my homework.

Just mention the middle east in any argument and the zombies just eat it up.

Illegal immigration is a hot issue now, and the one the largest arguments against it is terrorism. Take that away and there isnt much left to fight about. "They take our jobs".... the 2nd big argument, which is almost as lame as the terrorism one. You want to blame anyone for the loss of your job/s, blame yourself or the corporation you work for ( or maybe the president).

90% (give or take) of my inlaws are illegal immigrants and every single one of them are great people and all off them have miserable jobs that NO ONE wants to do, yet they never complain and are just happy to be here. Yeah they're technically criminals, as are most of the people posting on this board. How many of you have NEVER gone over the speed limit on the highway? How many of you have gone over the limit and got away with it? Just an example...

There is some REAL issues with illegal immigration (drug smuggling, cartels), but I think arguing over terrorist and jobs is a massive waste of time. Like I said, would terrorism even be in the discussion at all had we been typing all this before 9/11?

Originally posted by saturnine_sweet
here's a better idea: RFID towers and RFID tagging. Think of the uses! You could tag every illegal caught and shipped back!

yeah, theres a great idea

Why do people keep treating hispanics like animals?

Aid And Comfort

Originally posted by universalpnp
and believe it or not i am new to this blogging thing so i might not be able to insert my source hyperlinks because i cant turn my html on. moderators? please help?

Fear not! Your friendly invasion sympathizers are here to help.

In addition to the links the evil FredT provided, I recommend the following diabolical resource for plotting Internet treachery:

Zedd's Handbook of ATS Links

If it's not in Zedd's Links, it probably doesn't matter.

Also, I specifically recommend reviewing the following rambunctious links to aid in your noble quest to resist ruthless moderator oppression:

"WELCOME Aboard" from the Owners of AboveTopSecret.com (The Lay of the Land)

AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use (We live by these)

Board Info forum (Guidance from On High on Just About Everything)

I know it's a lot of reading, but ATS is a big place with lots of history, a rich culture and oh so many subtle nuances.

Whenever entering an online community, it is always sagacious to acquaint oneself with the town ordinances regarding dancing, liquor laws, hitching post fees, the disposition of the local constabulary, and the price of lodgings.

The links we've provided for your reading pleasure are there to help, and so is the ATS staff. If you're ever stuck, U2U a staff member or submit a Suggestion (using the button at the top of the page) and we'll do what we can to help out.

And now, back to your irregularly-scheduled propaganda-fueled FlameFest® discussion of... The Mexican Peril!!!

Originally posted by nuclearap0x
Also, what is stopping terrorists from sneaking into our country and becoming legal citizens before forming underground mobs, mafias, and gangs in an attempt to destroy the United States from the Inside out!? How much more effective do you think they will be if they are legal residents of the United States?!?!

Ok, build a wall around the north and south borders of the US from ocean to ocean, man it every few yards with a redneck on a 50cal. What will it change?

Go to a few bad neighborhoods and you'll still run a high risk of getting mugged or shot. Maybe even by a white guy! Just depends on where you go, and what color your skin is.

I live in an area full of gangs and violence (and rascism from all sides). Unfortunatly I know quite a few hardcore latino gangbangers through my wife's family that truly frighten me (even though they treat me as a friend)and I gurantee that all of them are 100% Grade A US citizens from the day they were born.

Gangs/mafia/violence is here to stay. Its not caused by immigration, its caused by hate, money, and pride.

Like someone said before me, the US will never be a a perfect utopia. Get over it and discuss some REAL issues that we may actually have some chance of correcting.

Like opening people's closed-minds

edit: two edits to add one comma

[edit on 4/17/2006 by PlausibleDeniability]

[edit on 4/17/2006 by PlausibleDeniability]

This immigration business is . I was born on the earth and i move about on the earth as a please. I want to move to Australia for example and theres no way those down in Canberra can stop me from doing it.

[Mod Edit:

Originally posted by SimonGray
Terms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s)


By becoming a member of these domains, you agree to the following:


1). Posting:

1b.) Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums...

- Jak]

[edit on 17/4/06 by JAK]

Originally posted by FredT
:shk: Are you suggesting that we man this wall with dogs and sentries shooting to kill?

The berlin wall worked cause the guards on the East German side shot to kill. Is this what you are advocating? Not the America I want to live in

What you have to remember is that the Berlin wall was there to keep people in, just as much as out. Nobody was shot trying to into East Germany over the wall. And the few that had to get into East Germany illegally to aid others to escape, had to find alternate methods to bypass the wall as the wall was unbreachable.

It's highly doubtful anyone would die attempting to cross such a wall in America, because if based on the Berlin structure the wall itself would be a physically impassable deterrent.

I have to say the USA seems to have a laughably illogical immigration control system. You're paranoically clamping down tight on visitors from Europe, with strict biometric checks, visa requirements and anyone even vaguely raising a suspicion through behaviour or surname being turned back, yet both the bottom and top of your country is wide open to anyone who fancies simply walking over the border.

posted by astral_ice: “ . . like a lot of people have already said, I don't hate illegals . . I hate the fact that the [minimum] wage hasn't risen in nearly a decade. [since 1993] why bother when an illegal will work for half that? [Edited by Don W]

And thereby, A/I, you have found the key to all this brouhaha over the undocumented persons coming to the US to work. How do you keep American wages down to Wal-Mart levels? It’s a two part plan. 1) Do not raise the minimum wage, i.e., keep a GOP Congress, and 2) provide an endless source of workers who will work for the $5.15 wage.

Benefit? The omnipotent Managing Class will have busted all the unions. Except the Teacher’s Union which Geo W and the GOP have almost broken, but that union is proving harder to break than most of the others. The old time, old line unions - UAW, Steel Workers, CWA, even UMW of A, have been “outsourced.” When the current generation of union members dies off, the minimum wage law and OSHA can be repealed. The Wagner Act of 1933 - which among other things, made strikes legal in America - will have been repealed by the Republicans after a fight lasting over 73 years!

The Market Reigns Supreme! Unrestrained. Unregulated.

It is a race to the bottom for workers, a race to the top for unrestrained, uninhibited capitalists! The New Deal is dead!

PS. I have long advocated a 2 level minimum wage. $10 an hour except persons under age 20, $8 an hour. And, employers to furnish health care insurance or add $2 an hour to wages.

[edit on 4/17/2006 by donwhite]

ITS NOT A BERLIN TYPE WALL PEOPLE.

That is the wrong wall to be looking it, at was short, squat and closely guarded. Over 40 years ago.


If you want to know what type of wall or "fence" look at what israel built around palestine. Luckily i have pictures of said wall/fence (its a wall with good PR)

This is the wall driving towards bethleham, over 20 feet high with guard posts.external image


Here is a closer view, i had to take all the pictures from a moving car but you get an idea of the size, its not gonna stop everyone but illegals's arn't olympic high jumpers. Tunnels will still be a problem.
external image


now i'm not advocating or decrying it, just providing some facts.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by jacquescas]

[Mod Edit: Resized images. ATTN: Image Size Guidelines - Jak]

[edit on 17/4/06 by JAK]

Don't think I tossed my hat into this one yet so...

Stop fighting fellow slaves and fight the slave-driver!

Minimum wage hasn't gone up? You blame Mexicans? I'll leave the rest to the nice mods...they shall show you the light...

Originally posted by universalpnp
From 1961 to 1989 the post war icon known as the Berlin Wall was the most efficient border security device ever constructed.

Thats not true. We could just create a zone of mustard gas on the border, and that could float over the waters around the border too, that'd keep people out.

Or we could discharge a whole bunch of nukes there and that'd irradiate the region. Then we can eliminate any evil illegals when they get into the US and try to steal our free medical coverage in their cancer treatments.





The illegal immigration "problem" is simply not a big enough problem to warrant building a gigantic stone wall at the border.

AND, it won't work. The berlin wall wrapped around part of a single city, and people did make it across it.

The romans' built a gigantic stone wall seperating their province of britain from the picts in the north. But that was not able to stop immigration, it was simply used for economic purposes. They also built a system of pallisades, patrol boats, and armies along their european frontier, called the limes or 'limits'. When large populations of barbarians showed up, wanting to settle in Rome, that never stopped them, nor was that its intent.

Building a wall across the US-Mexican border is absurd. It will cost an incredible amount, it will do nothing about illegals already in the country, it will help smuggling gangs by making their services even more in demand, and it will not work.


If anyone actually wanted to stop illegal immigration, all they'd have to do is make it easier to become a legal immigrant.

But most people don't care about illegal immigration, they want to 'stop' immigration of 'mexicans'.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by Nygdan]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so this may have already been said; yet, it deserves repeating:

The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people in, this wall is meant to keep people out

That's an important difference.

posted by jacquescas: “It is not a Berlin Wall people. If you want to know what type of wall [VP Cheney is proposing for America] look at what Israel has built and is still building around Palestine. It’s a wall with good PR. The pictures are of the wall driving towards Bethlehem. Over 20 feet high with guard towers. I had to take the pictures from a moving car. It’s not gonna stop everyone but it should stop all illegals who are not Olympic high jumpers. Tunnels will become a problem. I’m just providing the facts. [Edited by Don W]

Hello, Jacquescas, excellent pictures. The US Mexico border runs about 1800 miles. At $6 million a mile, Halliburton can have this wall in place before you can write a check for $10.8 billion! Ugh, I suppose Halliburton/Becktel will use the usual undocumented laborer? Profit, you know. Charge high, pay low. It’s the new, Republican style American mantra. Better call China for some more money.