Only idiots believe in UFOs

Originally posted by 1337nessCas
You are stupid if you think ufo's dont exist.. ''UFO'' means undentified flying object.. so it could be an airplane so dont say that ufo's dont exits

Hi 1337nessCas,

Just to clarify, my first email in this thread (which I started) did not express any opinion either way on whether UFOs exist or not. I was (and continue to be) simply looking for any pithy quotes from specific individuals which alleged "only idiots believe in UFOs" (or words to that effect).

Many people have complained about ridicule of ufology and witnesses, so I had originally thought it would be easy to find such quotations.

As my original post above makes clear (I hope), I've heard such views expressed informally but cannot recall such a view being expressed by any well-recognised skeptic or other commentator (such as in the books I've read by Carl Sagan, Frank Drake, Philip Klass, Oberg, Sheaffer, Seth Shostak or others).

I've posted the request made in my original email above on several UFO Lists (and I'd be happy for anyone to repost my email elsewhere if they want).

So far, about the best example anyone has come up with is a reference provided by "Cosmic Cowbell" to a comment by Richard J McNally's on the Jennings UFO TV documentary along the lines of the need for an open mind, but not so open as to let your brains fall out.

Are expressions of the view that "only idiots believe in UFOs" only made informally or by implication?

Perhaps such views are not explicitly expressed in books or in televised debates etc due to concern about potential libel actions?

Or perhaps there isn't as much ridicule of ufology and ufo witnesses as is commonly alleged?

Kind Regards,


[edit on 24-4-2006 by IsaacKoi]

i don't think they get it. A ufo could be anything, not a alien craft.

Originally posted by Rappa Z
i don't think they get it. A ufo could be anything, not a alien craft.

But many people refer to a alien craft as a UFO, so when you say UFO you can actually mean "alien craft" or "unidentified flying object".
And I think it was the alien craft version we were talking about.
But enough about that

Originally posted by Rappa Z
i don't think they get it. A ufo could be anything, not a alien craft.

Hi Rappa Z,

Complaints about the fact that many people equate the phrase "UFOs" with "Alien Spaceships" are very common, and not just from supporters of the ETH.

Quite a few skeptics have also complained about this confusion.

See, for example, the following article on the SkepticFriends website:

Click here and scroll down a little bit

Kind Regards,

Isaac

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by Rappa Z
i don't think they get it. A ufo could be anything, not a alien craft.

Hi Rappa Z,

Complaints about the fact that many people equate the phrase "UFOs" with "Alien Spaceships" are very common, and not just from supporters of the ETH.

Quite a few skeptics have also complained about this confusion.

See, for example, the following article on the SkepticFriends website:

Click here and scroll down a little bit

Kind Regards,

Isaac

wow, too much reading. After the first paragraph i got it. Made me laugh alot. I'm not a skeptic though. Every night i feel watched while I type 'cause 3 of the 4 walls have 5 ft high by 10 ft wide windows.

Originally posted by lost_shamanSo far they have not been forthcoming.

Apparently my post- Post Number: 2126233 (post id: 2151269)
was overlooked. If I had feelings they'd be hurt.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy

Originally posted by lost_shamanSo far they have not been forthcoming.

Apparently my post- Post Number: 2126233 (post id: 2151269)
was overlooked. If I had feelings they'd be hurt.

Hi Longhaircowboy,

Don't worry, I don't know about lost_shaman, but I'd certainly not overlooked your post.

Basically, as I recall, it made two points.

One: See Larry Hatchs site. You said that "He tends to dismiss sightings without any reason so he may have something".

Two: You said "I've also been told many times that UFOlogists are kooks. ... Ok so maybe my quotes aren't from well known people or published somewhere but they come from people I know who are part of my life and that makes them significant to me."

In relation to your first point. I know Larry and his website fairly well. I assume you had in mind his webpage showing a list of discredited sightings. For ease of reference, that page is at the link below:
www.larryhatch.net...

I can't see any really dismissive comments about _all_ UFO witnesses or "believers". In fact, most of the better known examples on that list are very widely regarded as discredited by those that have looked into them.


In relation to your second point, I'm glad that someone else has had the same experience as me. As I stated in the post which began this thread, I'd also heard similar comments - particularly as I've had a few people respond that no one would say such a thing.

My problem is trying to find any notable sceptics (or other commentators, such as in editorials in newspapers) which had _explicitly_ (and not merely by implication) suggested that all witnesses/ufologists are idiots/stupid/kooks/insane.

All the best,

Isaac Koi

PS Sorry for the lack of an earlier response to your email.

Originally posted by IsaacKoiMy problem is trying to find any notable sceptics (or other commentators, such as in editorials in newspapers) which had _explicitly_ (and not merely by implication) suggested that all witnesses/ufologists are idiots/stupid/kooks/insane.

All the best,

Isaac Koi

PS Sorry for the lack of an earlier response to your email.

Uh may I ask why? because you logic suggests that skeptics are upfront people by default then without bias of any sort... or am I reading too far ahead in this topic?

In regards commentary I cannot see how anybody can make absolutes at any time frankly... for many reasons.

In regards professionals or experts which both are often dubious terms, I still believe that there is few if any fields for which all is known so for even a skeptic to make absolute statements about unknown things seems illogical. That is when opinion comes into play.

But since our governments and news agencies and the entire system is under control of the unseen hand... well is there any investigation that is legit or logically sound?

You started this thread by mentioning Klass and he by my reasoning was either insane or paid to take a stance on the issues. He was a prime example of the people you are seeking and he got away with it too for some reason. From my limited experience I myself know of nobody else that would dare publicly to take such a HARD stand except for OUR GOVERNMENTS and MEDIA in general and not individually.

Therefore I would argue that UFOLOGY has in fact achieved something and that is the readily accepted suspension of belief as natural reaction cannot be easily be defended anymore. I hope there is never annother Klass ever in an discipline, those types hold back humanity for their own ends.

Trapped Soul...

Back to your physics book mate... the Universe is NOT infinite...it's very, very big - but not infinite. It has 'boundaries' or an 'end' if that's what you want to call it. Some think it's a sphere, other's think it's a donut shape...but most prominent scientists agree it is not infinite.

Also, if you believe Stephen Hawking, the chances of there being an extra-terrestrial lifeform advanced enough to travel to visit us is pretty much as small as you can possibly imagine. I'm not sure i agree with him on this...but he does have the maths to back it up in a theoretical sense.

I would like to believe we are not alone, but i've seen nothing to convince me that we are currently being visited. I think most 'UFO' sightings are black projects or possibly undisclosed other terrestrial based weapons/transport systems...possibly outside of the knowledge of our governments.... who knows???

Originally posted by denythestatusquo

Originally posted by IsaacKoiMy problem is trying to find any notable sceptics (or other commentators, such as in editorials in newspapers) which had _explicitly_ (and not merely by implication) suggested that all witnesses/ufologists are idiots/stupid/kooks/insane.

Uh may I ask why? because you logic suggests that skeptics are upfront people by default then without bias of any sort... or am I reading too far ahead in this topic?

Hi denythestatusquo,

You can certainly ask why I'm interested in finding such quotations.

I'm interested in showing that there is some common ground between the more rational "believers" (i.e. pro-ETHers) and the less extreme skeptics.

Both a "believer" (Hynek) and a skeptic (Klass) have written in their respective books:
(a) that some people believe that all UFO witnesses/investigators are "idiots" (or a similar term);
(b) that such a view does not reflect the variety of UFO witnesses.

There are other similar misconceptions which some members of the public appear to suffer from, in relation to which there is in fact common ground between (many) educated pro-ETHers and (many) educated skeptics.

So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of expressions of these views.

I hope this clarifies why I'm interested in finding such statements.

(As for your comment about my logic suggesting that "skeptics are upfront people by default", I'm not sure how my remarks implied that)

Kind Regards,

Isaac

Originally posted by Rapture404
Trapped Soul...

Back to your physics book mate... the Universe is NOT infinite...it's very, very big - but not infinite. It has 'boundaries' or an 'end' if that's what you want to call it. Some think it's a sphere, other's think it's a donut shape...but most prominent scientists agree it is not infinite.

Also, if you believe Stephen Hawking, the chances of there being an extra-terrestrial lifeform advanced enough to travel to visit us is pretty much as small as you can possibly imagine. I'm not sure i agree with him on this...but he does have the maths to back it up in a theoretical sense.

I would like to believe we are not alone, but i've seen nothing to convince me that we are currently being visited. I think most 'UFO' sightings are black projects or possibly undisclosed other terrestrial based weapons/transport systems...possibly outside of the knowledge of our governments.... who knows???

The universe is also said to be like a ballon that expands and then collapses and when it collapses everthing goes boom.

I read something saying one in every 100000-1000000 stars has intelligent life. Some thing else said there are 2 billion stars in the milky way.

also i have to say that i agree that most ufos are "black projects". Some guy found blueprints for a craft that had a jet engine facing every direction(45 degrees apart) on the top. That could be a ufo right there, yes?

[edit on 24-4-2006 by Rappa Z]

longhaircowboy,

I didn't mean to give the impression of overlooking your post.

I was just trying to give a quick description of the thread topic to another member and my opinion that quotes of this nature were proving difficult to find.

My use of the word "forthcoming" was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I was using it in the essence of this definition...

" Available when required or as promised:" - Dictionary.com

As you and IssacKoi have pointed out from your own experiences , the Idea or opinion held by many people is that "Only idiots believe in UFOs".

Yet, finding pithy to the point quotes like this made in public , especially by prominent sceptics , don't seem to be readily available.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

lost_shaman

No apology needed l_s I was just pointing out that the persons I refered to are indead skeptics. They may not be skeptics of "record" or persons quoted in publications but they do possess those views and freely spout them in my direction.
Isaac- I don't remember if it contained any quote of interest to you but a while back I ran across an article in the St. Pete Times about a fellow named George George. You might check for it at stpetetimes.com. He was called the UFO restuarant guy or some such.
My pointing to Mr. Hatchs site was merely in case you hadn't searched it. His willingness to dismiss cases out of hand with no sources or references leaves me a bit cold.
As certain other folk in UFOlogy have said- "maybe you should get yer arse out from behind a keyboard and do some serious investigation" and this would give them the realization of what people like ourselves endure in our search for understanding and denial of ignorance.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy
Isaac- I don't remember if it contained any quote of interest to you but a while back I ran across an article in the St. Pete Times about a fellow named George George. You might check for it at stpetetimes.com. He was called the UFO restuarant guy or some such.
My pointing to Mr. Hatchs site was merely in case you hadn't searched it. His willingness to dismiss cases out of hand with no sources or references leaves me a bit cold.

Hu Longhaircowboy,

Just in case anyone else was interested in the article you mentioned about Mr George, I've found that article online at:

Click here for article on Mr George

It's certainly a fairly lighthearted article, but (again) there is no explicit ridicule of all UFO witnesses.


As for Larry's website, I won't be so hard on him - he simply wants to concentrate (and have other concentrate) on the better sightings. Also, at the relevant webpage (below), he often (but not always) _does_ give a very brief reference (or name of a researcher) in support of his dismissal of an alleged sighting.
www.larryhatch.net...

Kind Regards,

Isaac

Glad you found the article. Sorry I didn't have the link handy at the time I posted.
I couldn't remember if there were anything derogatory in nature there.

Why would any noted skeptic, or anyone else for that matter, state that people who believe in UFO's are kooks, idiots, or something similar. The record shows that such a statement would be counter to the facts. That doesn't mean that some UFO reports are true and therefore reflect the presence of aliens. It just means that not all people who report such are somehow mentally deficient, or worse. A perfectly credible witness can make such a report and fervently believe they saw an alien craft but that doesn't make the reporter's belief true, nor the skeptical reader's disbelief true either.

When and if someone, anyone (even a real kook), brings in some physical evidence that can be verified nine ways from Sunday, then and only then will I personally believe Earth is being visited by aliens. The laws of physics are, as far as I know, immutable and the enormous distances separating stars from one another almost, but not quite, rule out visitations by intelligent alien life forms. That does not mean I don't believe in the existence of aliens. I do believe there must be a vast multitude of them scattered around the universe and the average alien race would, by the law of averages, be quite a bit older than Earthlings as well. Perhaps what we believe to be the laws of physics are simply the incomplete dellusions of an immature race--as a matter of fact, I truely hope that turns out to be the case. However, as we learn more about the universe and the physical laws which govern it, our present knowledge of those physical laws seems to be getting reinforced, not torn apart.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Why would any noted skeptic, or anyone else for that matter, state that people who believe in UFO's are kooks, idiots, or something similar. The record shows that such a statement would be counter to the facts.

Hi Astronomer70,

With respect, your comments and questions appear to conflate two distinct issues:

(1) Why would anyone state that people who believe in UFOs are idiots?;

(2) Why would I think that anyone has stated that people who believe in UFOs are idiots?


Taking the latter question first:

(a) I've actually _heard_ people say it.

(b) Several other people that have responded (on this Forum and elsewhere) to my initial email have stated that they too have actually _heard_ people say it.

(c) As noted in my original email, Philip Klass has referred to "some skeptics" that dismiss the UFO question without investigation in the belief that reports come only from 'kooks'.

(d) (With thanks to "Gorgo" of the Skeptics Friends forum) Similarly, Carl Sagan's “The Demon Haunted World” (1997) comments that "… the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons;

(e) Also, the link below is to a basic Google search for "UFO ridicule", which lists lots of complaints (without giving many specific examples, and the ones given are a bit weak...) about ridiculing of UFO witnesses/"believers":
/zu6az


Moving back to the first question, the short answer is that I don't know why people would say it. There are several possible explanations:

(a) They may not be aware of the unspecified "record" that you mention.

(b) Perhaps they have facts which give grounsd for disagreeing with your assertion that "the record shows that such a statement would be counter to the facts".

(c) Perhaps they reason differently to you from the available facts.


Of course, the fact that UFO witnesses/"believers" are _not_ all idiots does not prove that UFOs are alien spaceships.

I'm merely trying to find examples of statements that I've heard which _both_ skeptics and "believers" would agree are in fact incorrect.

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

When anyone bothers to actually read a significant number of UFO sighting reports (not abduction or actual contact reports) it becomes apparent the reporters (for the most part) are attempting to describe something they saw the best way they can. Usually, but not always, they describe their sighting of a visual object seen in the sky in terms that allowed them to estimate the size, or distance, or velocity of the object simply so they can place the object inside some frame of reference they personally can accept or understand. As you read, you can see they are trying to explain what they saw in terms others can understand. There generally is no obvious attempt to mislead listeners or readers and very rarely can the reporter be labeled a kook or an idiot. NOTE that all I'm talking about here are the actual reports of sightings--not what comes afterwards or the beliefs of the people making, or reading, the sighting report.

BTW I never questioned you're having heard people say UFO sighters are idiots or kooks.

Once you go beyond the sighting reports; however, all bets are off. The people who take sighting reports, then sometimes badger the witnesses for more details, and who use such reports to prove the existence of aliens & visitations, etc., are indeed kooks. Such people are the ones who allow the entire population of sighters to be portrayed as kooks. Only people who are too lazy to read sighting reports, or too feeble minded to think things through, or hoplessly biased on the whole subject, would call the original sighters kooks or idiots.

Generally speaking, people who report UFO sightings are ordinary people who have ordinary jobs, raise ordinary families and otherwise lead ordinary lives, pretty much just like you & I. That they saw something is beyond doubt. That they sometimes seem confused in reporting what they saw is understandable simply because most sightings do not fit readily into a normal frame of reference and they get confused in trying to make it fit into something their own minds can accept. For example, people tend to think of the atmosphere of Earth as pretty much a homogenized mix of gasses, water vapor, pollutants, etc.; however, localized differences in the atmosphere can, under the right circumstances, render entire sections of the sky impervious to radar and under other circumstances cause multiple false radar returns. Similarly, sunlight (or moonlight) reflecting off of an oil slick, or a mud puddle, or a canal or river, etc. can sometimes cause images to appear within the atmosphere that seem very real, but which are totally false. Such images appear all over the world everyday (and every night) and most of them are dismissed by the sighters out of hand simple because they do not fit into an understandable frame of reference. Some; however, do seem to fit and these tend to occassionally get reported.

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Astronomer70]

Astronomer- while I'm pretty much in agreement with what you say I must take exception to this-

The people who take sighting reports, then sometimes badger the witnesses for more details, and who use such reports to prove the existence of aliens & visitations, etc., are indeed kooks.

I collect and take sighting reports and I in no way badger anyone nor am I a kook(even though some would disagree). When someone calls me with a sighting I conduct a thorough investigation. I take down every possible fact the sightee can relate to their best recollection. I then check with the local media and airports for any possible relevant information. I don't hound the witness. I sit and discuss the ramifications of their sighting with them and assure them should any relevant information turn up I will gladly relay it to them should they be interested. I conduct myself in a professional manner and have never had any complaints about how I conduct my investigations.
I use HNSKY and Cartes du Ciel to verify any celestial events or objects with corresponding coordinants.

BTW the people who think I'm a kook think that because I do it without financial gain and in fact use my own resources to conduct my investigations. But there may be others who fit the above quote and I have no use for them. They're not kooks just unprincipled and unprofessional(you hear that MUFON?).
Otherwise as I said You pretty much put the hammer to the nail.
Heck who knows maybe someday I'll write a book called 'Tales of an Independent UFO Investigator'. Should be an interesting read.

Isaac, in case ya missed it this just arrived via the List

mufob.blogspot.com...

and self-styled "Serious Ufologists", most of whom are self-deluded
buffoons.

courtesy Stuart Miller