"Proof" of D12 is DEAD!!!

Nah dude. That only works for black people from Detroit. He must have ment everything he said in his songs. He's black and from Detroit for cryin out loud. He probably smoked crack too.

I give up. Racism's still alive. BTS proved it once again.

Thumbs up for making that point for me.

and the real fact is: as long as there are guns in existence and people harbour the hate and envy inside them instead of that wonderful thing we call love there WILL be gun violence and there will be tragic and violent deaths...the mentality now is that "They have guns, so I must get a gun...and if they shoot to kill I will shoot to kill"...when will the madness and the social corruption stop?

don't play the race card on me! what a cop out!

BTW the guy proof pistol whipped and shot in the face just died.:shk:

your running out of reasons to defend your role model as this sad story unfolds! so call me racist!?!?! very sad.

you don't need to go out to clubs, carrying a gun, afterhours all f*cked up on who knows what and get into a fight with someone over something prolly really stupid! regardless of who started what, it sounds like he definately was putting himself in harms way.

sing along to some proof tunes with me people:

Weed no seeds, last year Cannabis Cup
A druggie that mind hasn't been damaged enough
With danglin nuts I lust for angels to #
My cannon is tucked, move fast I panic and bust
Brain burnt out like a mechanical clutch
I'm too schizophrenic to touch
A scandalous bunch don't gamble with trust
Scammin for bucks, pink candy deluxe out mishandlin sluts
After a show bring all my fans on the bus
Next city, leave 'em dizzy, stranded and stuck
Hangin in clubs like blacks in slavery
Gats we aim and squeeze at acts of bravery
Maybe speakers bouncin off of Shady Lee
Can barely add, but still got A.D.D. (what I say?)
Work the do', make 'em play for keeps
I ain't gotta say # 'til the A.K. shall speak












[edit on 19-4-2006 by HereticHulk]

Yup, I pulled the race card. Know why?

You still haven't addressed the post about Ahhnold. Or Rambo. Or any other violent movie or song you ever heard. You continue to sidestep every single point the opposition has made. I am well aware of the lyrics kid. I am a fan of a lot of hip-hop out of Detroit. I don't need a reminder of how witty Proof was. His lyrics are nothing more than entertainment. Are you even a hip-hop fan at all? I doubt that.

Only an imbicile would believe everything an entertainer tells them. Its ENTERTAINMENT. Food for the culture. Keep the kiddies heads noddin. He happened to meet his demise in a grimey-ass way so it means that all his lyrics were non-fiction?

I am done with this argument HH. I doubt you will ever understand. Like I said before; Be glad you will never get it.

See...there yall go. Dafunk13, I don't think he wants to face an alternative view of his perceptions of hiphop. That's why he didn't address the references to violent movies. I don't think it has anything to do with race, but you mention it and out comes the "race card". It keeps HH from addressing the contradictions in his perceptions and you from acknowledging the violence in hiphop. The "race card" shuts down another debate.

Well, I do agree with you a bit. But I don't think we were making any progress towards an "intelligent" debate. To constantly ignore every counterpoint and continue boasting about how violent his music was is ignorance at best...perhaps not racist...or at least not racist on purpose. I will apologize for the comment, but I only hope people see how thought processes like this are perceived. Ignore all the entertainers that kill and bomb and terrorize, yet an artist from one of the most violent cities on earth dies in a really violent way and he is getting what he deserved?

I never failed to recognize the violence in hip-hop. I never defended it either. What I said was, the music is relative to the culture. It is violent because most of the artists environments are violent. We are products of our environment, afterall. They are selling records. You wouldnt write an album about lollypops and rainbows and how much you love the police when you are from Detroit or Harlem. Does it make it right? Nope. But do you think there is any moral convictions with getting rich? I doubt Proof gave two-#s whether anybody got a warm fuzzy feeling from any of his music. I dont think I gotta explain this to you Saph. You seem to understand pretty well where I am comming from.

I will do my best to play nice if everyone can stop posting comments that reek of racism rather than apathy. Read-APATHY...not sympathy. Put yourself if someone elses shoes, folks.

No, Dafunk, you don't have to explain it to me. Sometimes its just easy to dismiss someone because they don't agree with you. When it comes to hiphop/race its so easy to lable someone that doesn't understand or that's closeminded as "racist". Every closeminded hiphop hater aint a racist. HH could simply be someone that hates hiphop as he said rappers aint musicans...I think he was the one that said that...it just goes to show that he doesn't care to understand. So why address violence in american culture when he knows that it proves his belief false?

As for you, my hiphop comrade, and I hope I can call you that...I was trying to get you to open up and maybe address some of his issues so he might address your's...ah well, she's off to write some other peace treaty, since it seems this one has failed.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Yup, I pulled the race card. Know why?

You still haven't addressed the post about Ahhnold. Or Rambo. Or any other violent movie or song you ever heard. You continue to sidestep every single point the opposition has made. I am well aware of the lyrics kid. I am a fan of a lot of hip-hop out of Detroit. I don't need a reminder of how witty Proof was. His lyrics are nothing more than entertainment. Are you even a hip-hop fan at all? I doubt that.

Only an imbicile would believe everything an entertainer tells them. Its ENTERTAINMENT. Food for the culture. Keep the kiddies heads noddin. He happened to meet his demise in a grimey-ass way so it means that all his lyrics were non-fiction?

I am done with this argument HH. I doubt you will ever understand. Like I said before; Be glad you will never get it.

the contradictions are coming from you. you: "i live in a bad neighborhood, nobody else could possibly have been brought up in such a violent setting. so i'm gonna support people that attempt to exploit and spread this cycle of violence for years to come."

i like all kinds of music, except newer country and polka. but i got tired of hip hop, especially the gangsta and hardcore styles right around after doggystyle came out. you can only take that modus operandi so far before it becomes too stagnant. but to try address and debate your other questions:

rambo and arnold are ACTORS in hollywood movies, in which some they are portraying violence. they get paid and make a living at ACTING to entertain. but, you won't find rambo or arnold off the movie set, out in "da" club afterhours pistol whipping, slappin bitches, slangin and shooting people in the face. arnold and rambo don't release album after album of thug cliches' that started to get old round time of the whole east coast/west coast fued.

the violence in the movies which are portrayed by ACTORS aren't based on their own personal hardships, they are usually unrealistic, far out fantasies intended for entertainment. most folks can see the difference between hollywood fantasy and reality of perpetrating real life violence to make a buck off the sad state of affairs in mostly all of our big inner cities.

i think your "culture" that you are trying to represent, not hip hop in general, but the violent thugs that are being idolized as "products of their environments", that statement is the biggest cop out yet! i mean come on, most folks know the diff. between right and wrong. the "imbiciles" that don't draw that distinction that your are refering to are our youth, which are easily impressionable by this type of music and will grow up thinking this lfestyle is the only way to live, which it aint!

take the highroad form cripessake. so your raised or live in a #ty part of town, don't make it worse and support people that are trying to make things more difficult!?

move away if you have to!

[edit on 19-4-2006 by HereticHulk]

[edit on 19-4-2006 by HereticHulk]

GANGSTER LYRICS

Originally posted by Saphronia
To be considered gangsta rap there has to be an illusion of struggle with something more than your own image.
it's not violence for the sake of violence or the shock value of violence
The music is violent because their life has been surrounded in violence. Gangsta rap is violence as a symptom or side effect not as the main theme.

Ok. We have a definition.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Rapping about these things everone perceives as violent and terrible is only relaying life. When you live surrounded by drugs and violence and poverty, what do you expect lyrical content to be?

Originally posted by DaFunk13
he was only relating to his environment

Originally posted by DaFunk13
They can't be forced to understand the mentality of people who grew up knowing nothing but violence, and drugs, and death.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Be glad you never have to live in a neighborhood where people could rush your front door with guns drawn and kill you in your living room. Be glad you can go to the club and not have to worry about robbery. Be glad people don't get shot on your block for mean stares. Be glad 13 year old kids aren't busting guns at the crowded Cereal Festival in your hometown.

So Dafunk makes it pretty clear that this is gangster rap by your definition. Am I right?

truthseeka

Originally posted by truthseeka
If you take someone serious who says they need to get their pit bull an abortion because of a tryst with the mutt, you might need to take another look at reality

Originally posted by truthseeka
They are hardcore, no doubt

You take them serious enough to say they are hardcore…maybe you need another look at reality?

Originally posted by truthseeka
According to armaggedon, it has now come out that he was shot by the bouncer's cousin after defending himself against the bouncer

Actually…

Originally posted by armageddonbeliever
and the latest news is that the bouncer pulled a gun out first and proof defending himself, pistol whipped him, knocked him to the ground and shot him

According to armaggedon, Proof used excessive force. Why does he need to shoot him after neutralizing the situation?

Originally posted by truthseeka
So, if Ahnold got killed, he would have reaped all those violent action movies he starred in? How about Jet Li? He's kicked a lot of ass in his movies. Bruce Willis? Chuck Norris? Sly Stallone?

This really isn’t comparable. Its not the same as expressing yourself through music. Music is often more related to the artists life then a movie is related towards an actors life. How many real gangster rappers are there and how many real terminators are there huh? How many real walker texas rangers are there compared to 50 cents? As far as the message goes, how many highschool kids do you see trying to be like Ahnold in one his movies and how many do see trying to act like a gangster/hoodlum? Also, when these action stars play in movies how often are they the bad guys? And how often do the rappers play the good guys?
Your argument has holes all over it. It holds no water.

MORE CONTRADICTIONS

Originally posted by DaFunk13
You continue to sidestep every single point the opposition has made

So do you.

Originally posted by High Ryder He was inside a club that was illegaly open after hours

Originally posted by High Ryder
Why should I feel sorry for him?

Originally posted by Dr Love All the oppotunities in life afforded these guys because of the money they make, and they don't try to better themselves by removing the negative influences from their life.

Originally posted by miked1778
lets no overlook the fact that proof pistol whipped and shot someone before he was shot by the mans friend.

Originally posted by HereticHulk my point is, is that proofs music, be it gangsta rap or hardcore rap or whatever you consider it, IT GLORIFIES VIOLENCE for one, it also degrades women and basically incourages weak minded people to do some pretty irresponsible things! with absolutley no regard for the law or fellow humans! and he got killed for doing exactly some of the things he raps about!

Originally posted by HereticHulk
you don't need to go out to clubs, carrying a gun, afterhours

Where are your arguments for these?

Originally posted by DaFunk13
His lyrics are nothing more than entertainment.

Look at your previous posts shown above under gangster lyrics and then tell me again that its just entertainment. Was it relaying life or was it for entertainment?

RACISM

Originally posted by High Ryder
Im leaving this thread before I get labled a racist next.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I give up. Racism's still alive. BTS proved it once again.
Thumbs up for making that point for me.

Thumbs up for proving me right…

Originally posted by DaFunk13
To constantly ignore every counterpoint and continue boasting about how violent his music was is ignorance at best...perhaps not racist...or at least not racist on purpose

Last time I check the definition for racism is as follows: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Where is this being shown?

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I will apologize for the comment

Ok. But at the end of this very same post...

Originally posted by DaFunk13 stop posting comments that reek of racism

You apologize for playing "the race card" and then play it again. True or False?

I dont get this racism part. Please explain why or Im gonna have to go with A) You dont understand my perspective therefore you call it racist.


[edit on 19-4-2006 by High Ryder]

R.I.P Proof...another great artist gone!

What worries me is the repercussions...Fellow rappers dont normally take well to their close friends being shot dead!!!


Mic

ROFLMAO!!

High ryder and Heretic hulk, don't make me laugh.

First, Ryder says I'm contradicting myself. OK...so, all those Freddy and Jason movies weren't hardcore? It was make believe, like D-12 rap, but it would also be hardcore, like D-12 rap. Get it yet? Get outta here...

Heretic, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Ahnold has called people dogs on the set and made them get on their hands and knees. He gropes women like he's testing the firmness of melons at the store (I have SEEN him do this, BTW). He has openly called black bodybuilders 'n-word's, and said that if you gave black people a country, they would run it down the tubes. Heck of a role model, eh?

So...let me see if I understand this. It's worse to talk (rap) about doing bad things than it is to do it (act) on a screen. It's worse to hear bad things than to see them, riiight. So, it's worse to hear about people being tortured than to watch them be tortured. It's worse to hear Proof rap about blowing someone away than to see Ahnold blow someone away with a shotty. It's worse to hear about drive bys than to see someone get gutted like a fish by Mike Myers. Get outta here.

I'll leave y'all with some words of wisdom. People always want to point the finger at someone to blame them for problems in society while they ignore the real problems. People blamed Marilyn Manson for the school shootings instead of the anti-depressants the kids were on. People say rap makes people promiscuous when EVERY Disney movie has some sexual reference and/or undertones. And that's straight to the kids.

And, pretend like movies don't affect you when they do; just gives me one more thing to laugh at on ATS. I know from personal experience that everytime me and my brother watched kung fu movies back in the day, we went Shaolin as soon as the movie was over.

Eminem - Who Knew?

So who's bringin the guns in this country? (Hmm?)
I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over in London
And last week, I seen a Schwarzaneggar movie
where he's shootin all sorts of these mother#ers with a uzi
I sees three little kids, up in the front row,
screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle
I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads
who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?"
And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
What about the make-up you allow your 12-year-old daughter to wear?
(Hmm?) So tell me that your son doesn't know any cuss words
when his bus driver's screamin at him, #in him up worse
("Go sit the # down, you little #in prick!")
And # was the first word I ever learned
up in the third grade, flippin the gym teacher the bird (Look!)
So read up, about how I used to get beat up
peed on, be on free lunch, and change school every 3 months
My life's like kinda what my wife's like (what?)
#ed up after I beat her #in ass every night, Ike
So how much easier would life be
if 19 million mother#ers grew to be just like me?


[edit on 19-4-2006 by truthseeka]

And, pretend like movies don't affect you when they do; just gives me one more thing to laugh at on ATS. I know from personal experience that everytime me and my brother watched kung fu movies back in the day, we went Shaolin as soon as the movie was over.

HAHA...This is so true...

Im 21 and even now when i watch Green Street or Football Factory i get that urge...(not that i ever follow up on that urge...lol)


Mic

Jeewhiz guys, I keep trying to walk away from this thread.

So you compiled all the times I had to say it was "violent," and then you equate that with gangsta rap? It isn't. I am not going to try to draw lines and distinctions between the sub-genres of a vast scope of music, but any hip-hop fan will tell you D12 is not "gangsta rap."

I didn't mean to sidestep any questions, or opinions, so I can address them here:

#1 Lotsa clubs stay open after hours in big cities. I fail to see the relevance. It is only illegal because they were probably serving alcohol past a certain time. Big friggin deal. Next.

#2 You shouldnt feel sorry for him. Who cares? I only asked that you didnt use this thread to shovel # on his name. He just died. Its a tab bit disrespectful. Despite your obvious bias against hip-hop and especially what you consider "gangsta rap" I wouldnt expect you to feel sorry, but he is still a father, and a son, and a brother.

#3 As for all the ignored opportunities brought up by Dr. Love...I did address that. As I said, when all you know if drugs and hate and violence since childhood, its the regular 9-5 folks that seem wrong. It is one of those things that will never make sense to anyone who wasn't raised poor in a place like Detroit. I cannot teach the perception. I cannot paint that picture.

#4 As for the pistol whip thing...Who knows exactly how that happened? It could have been an attempted robbery. Maybe he smacked the guy with the gun to show he wasnt a pushover, and the guy persisted. Maybe it was someone out for him. The fact is, we dont know. We might not ever know. I seriously doubt he just picked a random face out of a crowd to pistol whip and shoot. There was something else happening. For all you know some local thug wanted to test his machismo. It is an animal mentality, but it could have just been a big-dick-contest gone violent.

#5 I am pretty sure we all addressed the violent music thing. Remember my little crack about Steve Miller's Take the Money and Run? Did you consider that song glorifying armed robbery and murder? It is ENTERTAINMENT aimed at a less violent group of ears, but the message is the same. This is where it started reeking of racism. And I wont mention the movies, cause apparently...those are different. *rolls eyes*

#6 "you don't need to go out to clubs, carrying a gun, afterhours..." Err, you sure about that? You ever been to Detroit, kid? You aren't his mommy. He can go to whatever club he wants. There are plenty of illegal clubs in this world, and I sure as hell wouldnt be hanging in any clubs, past bedtime, in Detroit without some kind of protection when you are a known local celebrity. That would be stupid. In hindsite, he probably should have just stayed home and called it a night, or partied in Canada for the night, but we can't expect him to hang out at Disney just because he has some money now.

And finally...The RACE CARD... I dropped that bomb because all you could do was whine about how violent his music was. Thats all you have on him. His radio personality. His gimmick. Yet you ignore all the movie stars that not only speak violence, but show it, complete with blood and guts and gore, and they dont even lace it with witty little rhymes and jokes. You ignore all the other violent music that isnt rap. What do we have to go on, other than to assume that you may just be a racist prick. I admitted that maybe you arent racist, but you sure sound like one...



[edit on 20-4-2006 by DaFunk13]