Starseed theory

Originally posted by Byrd
Just a note, since I'm a For Real Anthropologist:

Those othered and silenced in the discursive arrangements of knowledge and power invariably speak back. But how and on whose terms?

www.lib.latrobe.edu.au...

Please allow me to reclarify my term of reference:

Originally posted by Natalie
'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar

Byrd Allow me to disagree

Of course.

Natalie But, I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it.

Byrd
We don't. In fact, the anthropologists were the ones working to save it from extinction and to save the people and the culture... and I assure you that we're academics down to the bottom of our field note-writing fingertips.

thanks, I am aware of this. I stated 'academics' and 'most people', I did not single out or criticise Anthropologists. With all due respect, historically, academics have disregarded Indigenous cultures.

I have much respect for the anthropological research and findings of Stanner, the Berndts' and Donald Thompson; (just a handful I will mention here).

Bryd I'd point you to Franz Boas' work on the Tlingit and Haida of the American Northwest (and some traditions and art were preserved only becase of he and his fellow anthropologists) ... and googling on www.scholar.google.com... will show you that there's well over 1500 publications (including books on the rock art and one on the archaeology of the dreamtime) on the aborigines and the Dreamtime:
scholar.google.com...

There's also some huge collections and archives of oral recordings, traditions, photos, costumes, field notes on customs, etc, etc from around the world.

Here's just one of thousands of such collections:
www.nmnh.si.edu...

thanks again for your input and the links.

[edit on 3-5-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 3-5-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by Harte
And excellent "redistribution of the lightning" Byrd. I couldn't agree with you more.

Harte, thankyou for the personal insult.

Harte At least here there was no conspiracy theory advanced, just absence of knowledge on the subject

I really dont know how to respond to this. I am very upset and offended by this statement.

And speaking of stories - a priest, a rabbi and a minister walk into a bar....

What is it you really want to say? You want to personally insult me and the discussion here? You see the discussion as a 'joke'?

Do you enjoy putting other people down?

What happened? Earlier in the thread you were contributing to the discussion and your views were welcome. I dont believe I have ever insulted you Harte. Is it the fact that I am discussing this and you dont agree? You label me a 'fool' because of my lack of knowledge about this issue and the fact that I am researching this?

I would have thought, more the fool who stays in the dark.

Natalie

Originally posted by NJE777

Harte, thankyou for the personal insult.

I really dont know how to respond to this. I am very upset and offended by this statement.

What is it you really want to say? You want to personally insult me and the discussion here? You see the discussion as a 'joke'?

Do you enjoy putting other people down?

I would have thought, more the fool who stays in the dark.

Natalie

Well Nat.

I am sorry to note the discouragement and offer this my dear.

You are far more of a researcher, seeking anwers and asking questions than some of the Enlightened Charaters, using this Forum. I spent some time reviewing Past Topics in many sections in the belly of this Forum, and not many have expressed or detailed a topic, as you have.

The Good News is, at least you have the gift of Original Thought, which is obviously something "Others" are lacking. Maybe thats the difficulty they have. Being told what to believe is far easier than actually thinking for themselves.

So with this inmind, do not let the Lapdog's of Ignorance get to you. You are doing an excellent Job, and I trust this will continue, for the benefit of everyone who views your Topic.

Now, from what I understood, you had some questions in respect to the Minoans, and their Origins, and how they may have influenced things in the Past.

I do not know if this is useful, but it seems we now must sit back and truly review what the Lapdog's of Ignorance have offered up as facts for Rewriting History according to their Spin on things. (ACADEMIA's Spin of Things)

Science is the Tool, and here's a link for review.

msnbc.msn.com...

I hope it is helpful or at least directs you to further considerations.

Have a good day Nat.

Ciao

Shane

wow Shane! Very interesting...but very confusing. It just doesnt make sense. If Santorini new dates are now posed around 18 C then it certainly doesnt fit in at all with Plato's date. Unless of course, there were two eruptions 10,000 years apart??? and two Atlantis's??? (Joke: Platos Atlantis and MY OWN ) How can it be that the Minoan civilisation ended at two different times? Unless of course Atlantis came after Minoans?? um? Have I misunderstood something?
Plato links the Minoan with Atlantis. Surely then the dates would be the other way around?

According to the new chronology, the Late Bronze Age civilizations in the Aegean and on Cyprus may have developed in association with 18th- and 17th-century Canaanite and Levantine civilizations and their expanding maritime trade world.

Discovery rewrites history of ancient Mediterranean civilizations

One of the sturdiest explanations for the Atlantis legend has been that it was something to do with the eruption of Santorini/Thera (1550-1450BC) which is credited with delivering the fatal blow to the Minoan civilisation of Crete. Plato writes that volcanic activity sank Atlantis, which has given this interpretation credence; though academically the idea has been discounted for a long time

The Geological Society

Collina-Girard was interested in the way humans migrated from Europe into North Africa when the last Ice Age was at its peak - c.19,000 years ago. To see if Palaeolithic people could have crossed the strait, he made a map of what the western European coastline looked like at that time, when the sea level was 130 metres lower than today. His reconstruction of the area reveals an ancient archipelago, with an island right where Atlantis should have been.

The Geological Society see Map

Overview and Assessment of the Evidence for the Date of the Eruption of Thera

Conflicting dates and yet, this is a work in progress.

Plato’s chronology – he said Atlantis foundered around 9000 BC – is surprisingly close to the end of the glaciation and the consequent rise in sea levels worldwide.

The Geological Society

9560 BC: Taking Plato literally (assuming that his figure of 9,000 years before 560 BC was accurate and exact), the city-state of Atlantis sank into the ocean.

Wiki

So the eruption of Santorini is now posed around 18,000 BC. Plato's states Atlantis sank after volcanic eruption in 9,000 BC. Did find this interesting though regarding how Plato was told about Atlantis:

Correspondence of Minoan cultural artifacts with aspects of the Atlantis legend make the identity of the two seem virtually certain. Perhaps the most unusual of these is the Minoan bullfighting. By legend, the inhabitants of Keftiu would engage in ritualistic bullfighting, with unarmed Minoan bullfighters wrestling and jumping over uninjured bulls. This foolhardy practice is richly illustrated in remaining Minoan artwork. Legend also holds that Atlantis was peaceful — this is confirmed by a virtually complete absence of weapons in Minoan ruins and in Minoan artwork — unusual for peoples of that time. Egyptian legend held that elephants were found on Keftiu — while there were presumably no elephants on Crete, the Minoans were known to deal in ivory, and appear to have been the principal access to ivory for Egypt 20 centuries before Christ.

Lost Continents

From the new findings:

The new results suggest that the sophisticated and powerful Minoan civilization (featured in the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur) and several other pre-Homeric civilizations arose about a century earlier and lasted for longer than previously thought.

Discovery rewrites history of ancient Mediterranean civilizations

Oh I found map, but it isnt the best.

Bill Ryan (Lamont-Docherty Observatory), together with Walter Pitman, has recently expounded the theory that the Noachian Deluge, based on the stories in the Epic of Gilgamesh from which many Biblical myths were derived, thinks that the lower sea levels of 11,000 years ago would have exposed many islands.

However, the oral history lines are long; the stories of Atlantis would have had to survive down the generations for 9000 years in Egypt before being recorded by the Greeks. "The difficulty here is correct translation of nouns and adjectives passed down by the oral tradition as languages change and evolve"

The Geological Society



[edit on 3-5-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by Shane

Well Nat.

I am sorry to note the discouragement and offer this my dear.

You are far more of a researcher, seeking anwers and asking questions than some of the Enlightened Charaters, using this Forum. I spent some time reviewing Past Topics in many sections in the belly of this Forum, and not many have expressed or detailed a topic, as you have.

The Good News is, at least you have the gift of Original Thought, which is obviously something "Others" are lacking. Maybe thats the difficulty they have. Being told what to believe is far easier than actually thinking for themselves.

So with this inmind, do not let the Lapdog's of Ignorance get to you. You are doing an excellent Job, and I trust this will continue, for the benefit of everyone who views your Topic.

Im giving you a wats shane, I couldnt have said it better. Keep up the good work you guys ive really enjoyed this thread and the efforts you are all obviosly putting in researching and discussing. There is no absense of knowledge when you are actively searching for answers imho.

Cheers
Mark

Hello Nat

I have several questions.

Have we understood what Plato noted in his Timaeus Letter?
Do we know if Plato suggested that Atlantis Dissappeared in 9000 BC?
Or have we just thought this, based on not reviewing it?

Here Critias is retelling the story Solon offered his grandfather, about what was told to him by the Preist of Nith (Neith).

First and most important, from my perspective is this comment

O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you................that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age, according to the Timaeus Letter of Plato.

What is meant by 'children' when discussing this knowledge. Does this mean the Greeks only had 1000 years (or so) of history? Does this imply a child's understanding of the past?

Or is he noting that the Greek history is much more than they even considered previously? (Prior to 1600 BC or so)

It is not like he is saying the Greeks are new peoples. They had a rich history which was of known to others in the past, but the Greeks had no clue of that history. (According to the Preist)

Second, we are told, that 8000 (BC) years ago, the goddess Neith brought the Egyptian culture into being, and that a 1000 years before this, she was Athena and established Athenes in 9000 BC.

Third, we are given a short narrative on the exceedingly fantastic accomplishments
ending with a Society standing against the advances of Atlantis.

Never is a date offered for the Disappearance of Atlantis nor the Destruction of the Hellens. Common sense suggests a civilization would have taken several generations to grow to the power the Hellens are renowned to have become. They seemed to also be a part of Egyptian Records, and shared common Laws, so interaction outside of the goddess alone would not be unexpected. (This is based solely on the fact that this detailed account does not note anything to the contrary and that would be a pretty big detail. Taking pride and offering worship to some destroyed diety from another culture is not the most impressive godlike being to choose.)

SO I am of the belief, that these 'Common Events' took place later than Plato has been noted to indicate. Certainly, he (The Preist) has noted both were there 9000 years ago, but is he saying the Flood and Atlantis events took place 9000 years ago, I am not certain.

It's now, I reflect on the 'Children' comment noted above.

But yes, it offers many questions, to which none of us hold the answer. But you never learn anything if you do not ask questions.

Have a good Evening Nat, and thanks Mark

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Hi Nat, does anyone else find it strange that so many myths from around the world refer to the pleiades as the seven sisters. Why not the seven brothers or seven bears or seven dogs and so on.So many cultures seperated by both time and geography seem to have a common theme when describing this particular constellation.

Yes, I feel the same way and would like to get a list of all the myths that make reference to the pleiades seven sisters. That could take some time to do, but no doubt will find the time to complile it.

Originally posted by Shane

Have we understood what Plato noted in his Timaeus Letter?
Do we know if Plato suggested that Atlantis Dissappeared in 9000 BC?
Or have we just thought this, based on not reviewing it?

I am not sure if the review by ATS covers this but have included it if you havent seen what they have to offer: www.abovetopsecret.com...
your questions refer to the interpretation of Timaeus and the above reviews it. Anyway, not sure if the review helps here but included it for consideration.

What is meant by 'children' when discussing this knowledge. Does this mean the Greeks only had 1000 years (or so) of history? Does this imply a child's understanding of the past?

Or is he noting that the Greek history is much more than they even considered previously? (Prior to 1600 BC or so)

Second, we are told, that 8000 (BC) years ago, the goddess Neith brought the Egyptian culture into being, and that a 1000 years before this, she was Athena and established Athenes in 9000 BC.

Third, we are given a short narrative on the exceedingly fantastic accomplishments
ending with a Society standing against the advances of Atlantis.

well, as for these questions, I have no answers, just more reading to do... but it is definitely food for thought.

cheers and thanks
Nat





[edit on 4-5-2006 by NJE777]

Well here it is...no doubt brief but it is a starting point.

Pleaides – Global mythology/comparative

Aboriginal
www.big.com.au...

Hindu - The seven Krttika
www.windows.ucar.edu...

South African star myths - IsiLimela
www.nmm.ac.uk...

Native American Indian
www.sacred-texts.com...

Radical anthrop group has some more info on Aboriginal Dreaming
www.radicalanthropologygroup.org...

Pleiades Mythology - 7 Sisters
www.crystalinks.com...
Well crystal links have compilation of pleiades & global beliefs
Of course its only crystal links, no references but a starting point!
an excerpt but plenty more where below came from...

Early Dakota stories speak of the Tiyami home of the ancestors as being the Pleiades. Astronomy tells us that the Pleiades rise with the sun in May and that when you die your spirit returns south to the seven sisters.
The Hopis called the Pleiadians the 'Chuhukon', meaning those who cling together. They considered themselves direct descendents of the Pleiadians. Hopi Prophecy and Legend
The Navajos named the Pleiades the 'Sparkling Suns' or the 'Delyahey', the home of the 'Black God'.
The Iroquois pray to them for happiness.
The Cree came to have come to Earth from the stars in spirit form first and then became flesh and blood.
They believe that Mythic Mountain is actually the home of the Kachinas [Gods]. This mountain top is sacred. Being the home of the Kachina spirits it is the place where all of the large mythic beings they honor in their rituals land. "We come as clouds to bless the Hopi people" is a quote passed from generation to generation. There are some remarkable drawings that appear to be luminous discs of light in the petroglyphs in the southwest.

Star Stories
72.14.207.104...:B-Kd4BRHZFIJ:www.northern-stars.com/Star_Stories.pdf+pleiades+myths&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=84

North American Myth
72.14.207.104...:GX_fmSzjinwJ:www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol31/berezkin.pdf+pleiades+myths&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=97

well that will do for the mo..please feel free to add to it if there is something I have left out..crystal links have very good run down of global myths & pleaides. Including Japan, which I especially liked...didnt know 'subaru' meant pleaides...
They include Aztec info too...

cheers
Nat

edit: ps what new

do I use?

cos it is too wide now?

[edit on 4-5-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by NJE777
thanks, I am aware of this. I stated 'academics' and 'most people', I did not single out or criticise Anthropologists. With all due respect, historically, academics have disregarded Indigenous cultures.

No problem.

I get tired of academics and scholars getting the blame for these things when quite often the real force there are landowners and the government and the dominant religion of the area (all three of which influcence what goes into textbooks and what gets taught as well as legislation such as that done by California in the 1880's which legitimized some forms of genocide against the Native Americans and all the policies of the Australian government, etc, etc.)

To answer one of your not-yet-asked questions, no the Anthenian culture isn't 11,500 years old (9,000 years before Plato.) That would be a time before any cities were around, in fact, and at the end of the last Ice Age. It's also well before anybody had metal swords.

Originally posted by Byrd

To answer one of your not-yet-asked questions, no the Anthenian culture isn't 11,500 years old (9,000 years before Plato.) That would be a time before any cities were around, in fact, and at the end of the last Ice Age. It's also well before anybody had metal swords.

So, am I confusing the Hellens and the Athenes when considering this Byrd?

The Preist indicated Athena settled Athenes 9000 years prior to the Discussion, and that she, as Neith, settled the Egytian areas some 1000 Years later. which the Preist said was documented in their Archives, which are some 8000 Years old.

Now, I agree, the HEYDAY of the Athenes would be later than 9000 BC, but was this a reference point to both Atlantis and Athenes?

This would coincide with the first Agricultural based peoples being removed from Edin and settling around the Mid East/Med basin, and on, for that matter.

As for "That would be a time before" that is speculation. 11600 BC was the end of last Ice age, according to the Sciences, so the Preverbial increase in Ocean Levels, would have been well over or had taken effect by then 9000 BC. Until we found Troy, it was a farce and joke in the "Inner Circles of Scholarly Thought".

And as for Metal Smithing, this was taught to man, not an aquired trait.

Enoch refers to this quite clearly, in

Chapter 8:1 And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them............

he goes on to tell us who taught us what, and this explains the sad state of knowledge we have today. It's based on Satanic Principles from the lessor wannabee gods and dieties.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Ciao

Shane

Hey Nat

No, that Link you offered was something I reviewed previously, and it did nothing but infer the same premise.

Atlantis, according to Plato, was destroyed 10000 years ago.

Again, reviewing the text, I just do not note it in there. But that was what I was meaning.

I'm off to Speculate on dating a Flood.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane
Have we understood what Plato noted in his Timaeus Letter?
Do we know if Plato suggested that Atlantis Dissappeared in 9000 BC?
Or have we just thought this, based on not reviewing it?

Shane,
In the Critias, Plato relates:

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.

(my emphasis)
There's the source for dating (at least) the war between Athens and Atlantis.

Originally posted by ShaneHere Critias is retelling the story Solon offered his grandfather, about what was told to him by the Preist of Nith (Neith).

O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you................that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age, according to the Timaeus Letter of Plato.

What is meant by 'children' when discussing this knowledge. Does this mean the Greeks only had 1000 years (or so) of history?
Or is he noting that the Greek history is much more than they even considered previously? (Prior to 1600 BC or so).
...They had a rich history which was of known to others in the past, but the Greeks had no clue of that history. (According to the Preist)

The answer to your question was right there in Timaeus, using an elipsis, you omitted it from your post:

...and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes.

Originally posted by ShaneSecond, we are told, that 8000 (BC) years ago, the goddess Neith brought the Egyptian culture into being, and that a 1000 years before this, she was Athena and established Athenes in 9000 BC. Never is a date offered for the Disappearance of Atlantis nor the Destruction of the Hellens. Common sense suggests a civilization would have taken several generations to grow to the power the Hellens are renowned to have become. They seemed to also be a part of Egyptian Records, and shared common Laws, so interaction outside of the goddess alone would not be unexpected.

In neither the Critias nor the Timaeus is a specific date put on this destruction, but from context one may assume with some degree of certainty that is was not long after the war. As quoted above, the Critias says "...when afterwards sunk by an earthquake..."

The Timaeus says:

she (EDIT -"she" refers to Athens here) defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men (EDIT - meaning the Athenian "warlike men")in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

Originally posted by ShaneSO I am of the belief, that these 'Common Events' took place later than Plato has been noted to indicate. Certainly, he (The Preist) has noted both were there 9000 years ago, but is he saying the Flood and Atlantis events took place 9000 years ago, I am not certain.

No doubt about it, if Athens ever defeated the Atlanteans, it had to be a much, much "later date," since Athens did not even exist at the time Plato is discussing. But neither did Egypt, for that matter. Problem is, we have tons of ancient literature from several different civilizations that predate the founding of Athens, and it doesn't mention Atlantis or any powerful nation-state that we can't account for today.

Harte

Originally posted by NJE777

Originally posted by Harte
And excellent "redistribution of the lightning" Byrd. I couldn't agree with you more.

Harte, thankyou for the personal insult.

Harte At least here there was no conspiracy theory advanced, just absence of knowledge on the subject

I really dont know how to respond to this. I am very upset and offended by this statement.

Pardon me for recognizing ignorance (absence of knowledge) when I see it. Or rather, for pointing it out when I have seen it:

Originally posted by NJE777'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.

Also, pardon me for applauding a member of academia for recognizing same.

Originally posted by NJE777

And speaking of stories - a priest, a rabbi and a minister walk into a bar....

What is it you really want to say? You want to personally insult me and the discussion here? You see the discussion as a 'joke'?

Originally posted byByrdAllow me to disagree, both as an anthropologist with some field experience AND as a professional storyteller (yes, really.)

(My emphasis)
No, as you can see when my comment is put in context, I was making light of Byrd's "professional storytelling" experience.

Originally posted by NJE777
Do you enjoy putting other people down?
What happened? Earlier in the thread you were contributing to the discussion and your views were welcome. I dont believe I have ever insulted you Harte. Is it the fact that I am discussing this and you dont agree? You label me a 'fool' because of my lack of knowledge about this issue and the fact that I am researching this?

I would have thought, more the fool who stays in the dark.
Natalie

I am amused by Byrd's signature. Natalie, you seem to me to be looking for insults. You make a broad generalization about "white academia" after which an actual member of academia shoots you down. I recognized the act for what it was. No amount of backpedaling by you changes the situation. To me, it appears that you, for reasons that are your own, are looking for insults where there are none.
My comments were meant to reflect the lightening-quick rebuke Byrd offered to you, not to characterize you as a fool. It's far easier for me to just say "You are a fool" than to go about it in some roundabout backhanded fashion.

No, I don't think you are a fool. I do think that your comment about academia was foolish, and that it reflected ignorance of the subject, or, as I said, "...an absence of knowledge on the subject...," that subject being, you know, the subject where they attempt to "comprehend the depths of the oral tradition" and they try to "understand the artwork," who are those guys?.... OH YEAH, Anthropologists - like Byrd!

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

I am amused by Byrd's signature. Natalie, you seem to me to be looking for insults. You make a broad generalization about "white academia" after which an actual member of academia shoots you down. I recognized the act for what it was. No amount of backpedaling by you changes the situation. To me, it appears that you, for reasons that are your own, are looking for insults where there are none.

Take it from someone who grew up in close proximity to indigineous australians during the 60's and 70's that "white academia" along with religious groups, govt and farmers did in fact, not only ignore, but in a lot of cases actually fabricate cultural information regarding the aborigines for their own benefit. I have seen this first hand.

So sticking up for yourself is backpedaling.Ohhkaay. Maybe i had my beer goggles on cause your post certainly seemed insulting to me, I wouldnt have leapt to Nats defence otherwise. It actually surprised me when i read it because until then this thread had been a lively, civilised discussion.

Originally posted by Harte
No, I don't think you are a fool. I do think that your comment about academia was foolish, and that it reflected ignorance of the subject, or, as I said, "...an absence of knowledge on the subject...," that subject being, you know, the subject where they attempt to "comprehend the depths of the oral tradition" and they try to "understand the artwork," who are those guys?.... OH YEAH, Anthropologists - like Byrd!
Harte

Like i said above when talking about the history of indigineous australians, Nats comment does not show ignorance or a lack of knowledge, its the truth. That is not to say there weren't white academia who truly cared for aboriginal culture, just that they were rare.

Anyway enough on that as the discussion seems to be back where it should be.

Cheers
M4S

(edit) i really should learn to spell one of these days.

[edit on 4/5/06 by mojo4sale]

alrighty then... I am getting up to speed with Plato...

I have spent morning reading articles that I cannot provide direct link to. I will provide the info and where I sourced them but if you want to read them, you will have to subscribe or access via Uni or Library.

I am very surprised by what I have read regarding Plato's account and the lack of verification details and political motivation that cast serious doubt on the credibility of his story.

"it might be added that (unlike his modern readers) Plato is less concerned with Atlantis than with her rival and conqueror, the Athens of antediluvian age 9600 B.C. that Plato himself made the whole story up (fashionable recent theories about Thera notwithstanding) is indeed demonstrable"
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

"Plato's account was checked and confirmed from the same Egyptian records shown to Solon by the first commentor on the Timaeus, Crantor of Soli (ca 340 -275 B.C.). This claim, based on Proclus' commentary on the Timaeus (in Tim 24 a b, ip 76 Diehl)"
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

In sum, it is suggested Plato created the story to support the 'Republic'.

Plato's verification is far from adequate...

"The proof (of the story) says (Crantor) is the Egyptian Priest who report that it was inscribed on pillars that still stood (sc in Solon's day)"
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

And,

"There is no confirmation, whether 1st or second hand of the hieroglyphs in the temple of Neith at Sais supposedly seen by Solon. Crantor's contributions are in an act of faith".
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

The effect was to give the Athenians a powerful history for political reasons.

This article is very succinct but underneath are others I have read to get to this point. For those people who are not up with Plato (like myself, as I originally stated) please do read them, if you get the chance to.

Oh Byrd, I did read that Plato did in fact state it was a factual story, but perhaps this relies on the interpretation:

" his story is not fiction but fact, twice (Tim. 20e 26e)
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

Shane, I think you might find this interesting also:

"the destruction of all Greek records in the flood of the Egyptians. Likewise the Anthenians, although they were the founders of the City in Egypt then called Sais suffered the same ignorance because of the flood"
Source: Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

Bibliography:

Atlantis and the Nations
Pierre Vidal-Naquet; Janet Lloyd
Critical Inquiry, Vol. 18, No. 2. (Winter, 1992), pp. 300-326

The Genre of the Atlantis Story
Christopher Gill
Classical Philology, Vol. 72, No. 4. (Oct., 1977), pp. 287-304.

Designer History: Plato's Atlantis Story and Fourth-Century Ideology
Kathryn A. Morgan
The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 118. (1998), pp. 101-118.

Crantor and Posidonius on Atlantis
Alan Cameron
The Classical Quarterly > New Series, Vol. 33, No. 1 (1983), pp. 81-91

All can be accessed through www.jstor.org...

ok now off to source info on these "fashionable recent theories about Thera" ??

cheers
Nat
edit fffffffffffffffffformatttt!!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 4-5-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 4-5-2006 by NJE777]

Below quotes from me are quoted from other threads.

Originally posted by NJE777
I am very surprised by what I have read regarding Plato's account and the lack of verification details and political motivation that cast serious doubt on the credibility of his story.

Originally posted by Harte
The entire idea of Atlantis was born in Plato's mind, and this is pretty obvious to anyone that has read his Dialogues.
In Plato's Republic, the following two passages can be found:

In this education, you would include stories, would you not?… These are of two kinds, true stories and fiction. Our education must use both and start with fiction. . . . And the first step, as you know, is always what matters most, particularly when we are dealing with those who are young and tender. That is the time when they are easily moulded and when any impression we choose to make leaves a permanent mark...

...Now I wonder if we could contrive one of those convenient stories we were talking about a few minutes ago...Some magnificent myth that would in itself carry conviction to our whole community, including, if possible the Guardians themselves. . . . Nothing new-a fairy story like those the poets tell and have persuaded people to believe about the sort of thing that often happened 'once upon a time,' but never does now and is not likely to: indeed it would need a lot of persuasion to get people to believe it"

This shows that Plato was not above making up stories and pretending they are true, as long as some moral or other training purpose was being addressed by the "tall tale." Now, from Plato's Critias, we have the following intro to Critias' story about Atlantis:

I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man... Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon...

The "aged man" Critias here is Critias the Elder, the grandfather of the Critias that tells the tale. The important part of this passage is the line about the "day of Apaturia." This is a festival where poetry recitals and various other activities are performed by children for the adults. On the last day of Apaturia, babies, young men, and newly married wives were enrolled into their phratriai-"brotherhoods" of related families.
Considering the fact that Plato chooses the setting of a festival where young people are initiated and otherwise focused upon for the time when Critias first heard the story, and that Plato has told us of his strong belief in the use of the "magnificent myth" as a teaching tool to be used to enighten young people, what can we infer about the nature of the tale Critias heard at this festival?

Originally posted by NJE777In sum, it is suggested Plato created the story to support the 'Republic'....
The effect was to give the Athenians a powerful history for political reasons.

Originally posted by HarteThe context of the telling of the story to Solon is the Egyptian's basically bragging about how old their civilization is, and the Egyptian's contention is that the Greeks have forgotten where they come from.
This last was precisely the point Plato (who witnessed the execution of his mentor Socrates by the Athenian state) was trying to make. The Athenians had forgotten themselves. Plato was bitter about Socrates death, and rightly so. Similar criticisms of the Athens of his day can be found throughout his writings.

Originally posted by NJE777Oh Byrd, I did read that Plato did in fact state it was a factual story, but perhaps this relies on the interpretation:

" his story is not fiction but fact, twice (Tim. 20e 26e)

Originally posted by HarteRegarding Plato's repeated claim of veracity for the story...Plato does this sort of thing fairly often in his Dialogues. For example:

Listen, then, as story-tellers say, to a very pretty tale, which I dare say that you may be disposed to regard as a fable only, but which, as I believe, is a true tale, for I mean to speak the truth. Homer tells us, how Zeus and Poseidon and Pluto divided the empire which they inherited from their father.

(Source -Plato's Dialogue "Gorgias) Similar uses of the device can be found in the Republic (Story of Er), Meno and Laws.

Nat,
Or, you could have just listened to me.
One more:

I want to say here that I sympathize with you and others here that believe Atlantis once existed...I once was among you all. My fervor for Atlantis is what led to my current (nonbeliever) status, though. Attempting to research Atlantis into existence led me to finally conclude that it never had existed (the irony! )

Harte

[Quote]originally quoted by harte
Nat,
Or, you could have just listened to me.
One more:
quote: I want to say here that I sympathize with you and others here that believe Atlantis once existed...I once was among you all. My fervor for Atlantis is what led to my current (nonbeliever) status, though. Attempting to research Atlantis into existence led me to finally conclude that it never had existed (the irony! )


Harte

Should that stop others from researching, if so we would never learn anything new if we just believed what someone else tells us without gathering our own evidence. How many scientific theory's from the turn of the century are now thought to be incorrect. Without challenging the status quo we would still be living in the dark ages, just because you or me or someone else believes something to be true doesnt really make it so. I have no problem with evidence being tabled from opposing views as long as it is civil and devoid of the 'I told you so mentality'. No one takes any notice of those that state 'I have come to this conclusion so it must be correct'. It only detracts from the discussion at hand. I'll shut up now and let the exchange of ideas continue.

Peace
M4S

thanks Harte, I realise that early on in the discussion you provided information about Plato, however, at that stage, as I stated right from the start I knew nothing about Atlantis.

I am doing my own research and did go back to pg 2 and see that your imput mirrored the info I had just read. I cant just take your word for it. I am not like that. I have to find out for myself.

From this, regardless of what you believe, I believe that Plato's account is wrong...not to say this golden city didnt exist, but rather Plato's account is corrupted and he (especially as the records were destroyed in the floods) only had half the information. Just as the Dogon have an element of truth, so too this account. So, Plato's date means absolutely nothing to me.

I feel the eruption of Thera holds many answers and as this is a work in progress, time will tell. I am just looking at info on theories re: Thera, but I am interested to see what info exists re the Egyptians and if they can shed any light on this.

cheers









[edit on 5-5-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by Byrd

Would be interesting to find out what that "robert" refernce was. First name, perhaps?

Well, not 100 % sure but have been reading about Hellanicus and in the articles I have read they make reference to:

Robert, Pausanias als Schriftsteller (1919) Lucken, An, Mitt p 98
see below book review of him. I think this is your man:

Pausanias als Schriftsteller. Studien und Beobachtungen
Carl Von Robert, Berlin, Weidman
Review author[s]: Mitchell Carroll
Classical Philology, Vol. 5, No. 4. (Oct., 1910), pp. 519-522.


I decided to check out Hellanicus of Mytilene.

I will start with Thucydides (he was only interested in constitutional problems and wasn't interested in ethnograpy) Now Thucydides disaproved of Herodotus and Hellanicus. Herodotus demanded:

"Historians to explain the events they told"
Source: Greek Historiography, Arnaldo Momigliano, History & Theory Vol 17 No 1 (Feb 1978) pp 1-28.

And, Hellanicus was big on ethnography:

"A learned man from the Island of Lesbos, who wrote many books on local history, mythography & geography, among them a chonicle of Attica made public after 406 B.C."
Source: Greek Historiography, Arnaldo Momigliano, History & Theory Vol 17 No 1 (Feb 1978) pp 1-28.

And geneology, that I believe was your first guess too?

"Hellanicus devoted an entire prose work to each of serveral heroic families: his Deukalioneia, Atlantis, Asopis & Phoronis"
Source: Dionyslus of Halicarnassus on the First Greek Historians, David L Toye, The American Journal of Philogy, Vol 116 No 2 (Summer 1995) pp 279-302.

And, I think you also suggested Plato stole Hellanicus's work? Even if, Hellanicus wrote about geneology, do we write that off too?

Bibliography:

The Date of the Metopes of the Athenian Treasury at Delphi (5 Stars)
W. R. Agard
American Journal of Archaeology > Vol. 27, No. 2 (Apr., 1923), pp. 174-183

Classical Epigrams and Epitaphs: A Study of the Kimonian Age
H. T. Wade-Gery
The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 53, Part 1. (1933), pp. 71-104.

Dionyslus of Halicarnassus on the First Greek Historians
David L Toye
The American Journal of Philogy, Vol 116 No 2 (Summer 1995) pp 279-302.

Greek Historiography
Arnaldo Momigliano
History & Theory Vol 17 No 1 (Feb 1978) pp 1-28.

All can be accessed www.jstor.org/

edit to include another person who it might be, especially if it is reference from Brittanica?

Oral Tradition and History
Robert H. Lowie
American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 17, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1915), pp. 597-599

not so confident of this one though...

[edit on 6-5-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 6-5-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Byrd

To answer one of your not-yet-asked questions, no the Anthenian culture isn't 11,500 years old (9,000 years before Plato.) That would be a time before any cities were around, in fact, and at the end of the last Ice Age. It's also well before anybody had metal swords.

So, am I confusing the Hellens and the Athenes when considering this Byrd?

The Preist indicated Athena settled Athenes 9000 years prior to the Discussion, and that she, as Neith, settled the Egytian areas some 1000 Years later. which the Preist said was documented in their Archives, which are some 8000 Years old.

No, I don't think you're confusing those. But 10,000 BC was before writing had been developed ANYwhere. There were no literate civilizations, and there is no tradition of transcribing rock art (which is that old, indeed. And there's a goodly sample of it in that area.

Early forms of writing show up about 5,000 BC and fully developed texts at just before 3,500 BC.

Now, I agree, the HEYDAY of the Athenes would be later than 9000 BC, but was this a reference point to both Atlantis and Athenes?

Also, the oldest temples and known structures in Greece date to 6,500 BC. So there is plenty of hard evidence to show that Plato's statement was in error.

This would coincide with the first Agricultural based peoples being removed from Edin and settling around the Mid East/Med basin, and on, for that matter.

Erm???

There's global evidence for humans that dates back 2 million years. Our ancestors migrated out of Africa around then and had settled around the world within a million years. The artwork in the caves of Lascaux, France, is 30,000 years old. Evidence from Portugal and France shows in several places that homo sapiens and homo neanderthalis were living in communities close to one another and perhaps interbreeding 40,000-30,000 years ago.

So...err...they were everywhere. And 10,000-9,000 years ago was the period when the Earth started getting warmer and resources started drying up, and people moved INTO river valleys (starting civilizations first in India and later elsewhere). In the Middle East, they moved into the Tigris-Euphrates valley; not out of it.

So... I'm not familiar with any source that talks about a migration from a valley at the time when the whole area was drying up.

As for "That would be a time before" that is speculation. 11600 BC was the end of last Ice age, according to the Sciences, so the Preverbial increase in Ocean Levels, would have been well over or had taken effect by then 9000 BC. Until we found Troy, it was a farce and joke in the "Inner Circles of Scholarly Thought".

A tiny correction, if I may. The ocean levels kept rising until 5,000 BC.

While some scholars went along with Bishop Ussher's date of the world to 4,000 BC, there were many who didn't. Since that date never became Official Church Policy (unlike the "Earth is the center of the solar system and universe" theory), there were those who felt it was much older.

And as for Metal Smithing, this was taught to man, not an aquired trait.
Enoch refers to this quite clearly, in

Chapter 8:1 And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them............

he goes on to tell us who taught us what, and this explains the sad state of knowledge we have today. It's based on Satanic Principles from the lessor wannabee gods and dieties.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Are you sure you want to rely on that as a source? Most of the book(s) were written after 100 AD. This is hardly "ancient lore."