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Originally posted by mojo4sale
The sea, however, never returned to its original limits. (Goonganjie tribe).’”
Although Moses had never previously heard a story about Gunya the theme
was familiar to him – many Yidinyji stories are concerned with rising seas and
what olden times people did to try to stop them.
Told by Dick Moses in the coastal dialect; recorded at Yarrabah on 22 August
1973 (duration 10 minutes).
I found it amusing that the aboriginal fella telling the story is called Moses!!
www.didgeridoos.net.au...
ref above
Munya Andrews: Yes, they, according to my grandmother, they are our relatives and she’d say that we come from the Pleiades, that that’s our relatives. You know, I mean you grow up as a little kid and you hear these stories, and I grew up also believing that as well.
a little of the interview...
Rachael Kohn: Didn’t she believe in the Seven Root Races of Mankind? Is that connected to the Pleiades?
Munya Andrews: Well yes, it is, because when you think about, when I look at the common themes about the Pleiades, of course the very fact that there are seven sisters; some stories there’s six, but largely seven, and that’s also another theme that’s interplayed between six and seven, that is tied up with all sorts of meaning.
But you can’t ignore the fact that you are talking about seven sisters, and when we look at the number seven and it’s the magic use of it in our language and culture, you know we talk of seven heavens, and seven rays of the sun, and seven gates of Ishtar, and so on, for me there was something in that I had to look at. And I again looked at Madame Blavatsky, and what she has to say. And she basically calls the Pleiades, the Atlantids, after Atlas the father and after Atlantis. And basically says that they stand, they’re a symbol, if you like, of this notion of there having been seven rounds of creation.
Originally posted by mojo4sale
Have heard and still remember sitting around a camp fire and listening to dreamtime stories first hand. Hard to express the feeling you would get sitting out in the open with a million stars overhead and the sounds of the animals and birds while listening to these stories.
Sorry for rambling off topic but have really enjoyed watching this thread. Keep up the good work.
Cheers
M4S
Originally posted by mojo4sale
Have heard and still remember sitting around a camp fire and listening to dreamtime stories first hand. Hard to express the feeling you would get sitting out in the open with a million stars overhead and the sounds of the animals and birds while listening to these stories. Cheers
M4S
Originally posted by Byrd
I found that post, actually, on Usenet and scanned it for more. I'm glad to hear that Castledan is a credible source!
But... what I wanted to find out is whether this piece actually refers to a place called "Atlantis." It could, of course refer to a person or a temple or a lot of other things. Any idea, or is that one sentence the only surviving bit of the play? If so, then that's truly not much evidence of anything.
What's the ATS?
Thanks for your kind words.
Here's all I know:
Castleden points out that Hellanicus wrote a history of Attica 'from the earliest times'. bit that was 683.
But see this comment on his reliability from the 1911 Britannica:
[www.1911encyclopedia.org]
and see this -- which uses some of the above, so...
[en.wikipedia.org]
and [www.bbk.ac.uk]
There are only a few lines left of Hellanicus's Atlantis, which includes the line 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of
the Blest and made immortal.' Plato says Poseidon mated with Cleito and had a son Atlas who became ruler of Atlantis. There's also bits about Atlas's daughters and their relationships with various gods.
A transcription and/or translation of Hellanicus Atlantis I fragment is in:
Robert L. Fowler, Early Greek Mythography Volume 1: Text and
Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. Pp. xlviii,
459. ISBN 0-19-814740-6.
Castleden suggests that Plato may have borrowed from Hellanicus's book, taking the title from it, and that Hellanicus may have borrowed from an earlier Atlantis 'epic', or that both may have borrowed from Solon whose story may have been well known at the time.
Castleden also says in a footnote "Robert (1917) identifies an older fragment of the Atlantis epic in Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II, 1359. These shreds of a pre-Platonic Atlantis legend go a long way towards vindicating Plato's insistence that the tradition he was offering was true."
But there is no Robert (1917) reference in Castleden.
And see here: [www.worldwideschool.org]
Looks as though that fragment is long after Plato.
John V Luce (a Dublin Classicist), in his chapter in Edwin S. Ramage Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, says that Hellanicus used the word "Atlantis" (and he says the title might have been Atlantika or Atlantias) to mean 'daughter of Atlas' and that the work was basically a genealogical one.
Hope that helps.
Doug
This universe, created by super-natural beings, had a definite structure of the earth, heavens, and the underworld.
The structure of the Aborigine universe varied little across Australia. It consisted of three planes: the earth, the sky, and the underworld. The earth was circular and flat covered by the dome of the sky which stretched out to the horizon. The sky was the plane upon which super-natural beings or the ancestral-heroes lived. The sky plane was also where the soul of a person went after they died. The Aborigines believed that the sky was a rich country with a plentiful water supply.
Originally posted by Shane
It is noted as follows
This universe, created by super-natural beings, had a definite structure of the earth, heavens, and the underworld.
The structure of the Aborigine universe varied little across Australia. It consisted of three planes: the earth, the sky, and the underworld. The earth was circular and flat covered by the dome of the sky which stretched out to the horizon. The sky was the plane upon which super-natural beings or the ancestral-heroes lived. The sky plane was also where the soul of a person went after they died. The Aborigines believed that the sky was a rich country with a plentiful water supply.
So, the Creators who brought live to creation, are Super Natural Beings or Ancestrial Heros who lived in the Sky, which was full of water. Fish People which swan in the skies!
So the lore is there Mojo4Sale.
Have you ever heard of this, and if so, could you tell us what you had been told?
The Australian Aborigines speak of jiva or guruwari, a "seed power" deposited in the earth. In the Aboriginal world view, every meaningful activity, event, or life process that occurs at a particular place leaves behind a vibrational residue in the earth, as plants leave an image of themselves as seeds. The shape of the land - its mountains, rocks, riverbeds, and waterholes - and its unseen vibrations echo the events that brought that place into creation. Everything in the natural world is a symbolic footprint of the metaphysical beings whose actions created our world. As with a seed, the potency of an earthly location is wedded to the memory of its origin. The Aborigines called this potency the "Dreaming" of a place, and this Dreaming constitutes the sacredness of the earth. Only in extraordinary states of consciousness can one be aware of, or attuned to, the inner dreaming.
Originally posted by Shane
I am fully aware it was found in the 1700's and ponder, what does it gain a Frenchman to offer this up? Proving his Enemy is one of God's People.
www.angelfire.com...
www.asis.com...
www.zazzle.com...
Seems I find Druid's mentioned in the Text, but was not surprised by the New Age Speak version you offered. Had a good laugh looking at that thing. And you call it a bible.
Originally posted by Harte
I can't speak to the credibility of Castleden on this subject, but I believe he has published scholarly works on the Minoans, hasn't he? Anyway, when I said credible, I meant Doug Weller. He's the Director at the Hall of Ma'at discussion forum. Heard of it?
He also operates Doug's Archaeology Site.
Here's a portion of an email I received from the esteemed Mr. Weller in response to a question I posted in the guestbook at his Archaeology Site.
John V Luce (a Dublin Classicist), in his chapter in Edwin S. Ramage Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, says that Hellanicus used the word "Atlantis" (and he says the title might have been Atlantika or Atlantias) to mean 'daughter of Atlas' and that the work was basically a genealogical one.
except for his mention that Castleden provides no Robert (1917) reference concerning the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II.)
Originally posted by Byrd
except for his mention that Castleden provides no Robert (1917) reference concerning the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II.)
Would be interesting to find out what that "robert" refernce was. First name, perhaps?
Thanks for the link!
Originally posted by Shane
The Tee Shirt was a Joke Hence the
And if you review, I defined this as the Lost Chapter of Acts, and referenced my KJV did not have this Amen.
What did it gain a Frechman to inspire British Israelism??????
As for the Text in question and how it may apply, I will see what I can find for you my friend. I am sure we can located it, and find an Origin copy somewhere. We just need to look further.
By the what, what is your thesis you present Friday??/
Ref above
Genealogy
The Pleiad(e)s were the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione, and half-sisters of the Hyades, whose mother was Æthra (`bright sky'; a different Æthra than the mother of Theseus). They were perhaps also half-sisters of the Hesperides, who were daughters of either Night alone, or Atlas and Hesperis (`evening'), or Ceto and Phorcys. Both Pleione and Æthra were Oceanids, daughters of Oceanus and Tethys, the titans who ruled the outer seas before being replaced by Poseidon. Atlas (`he who dares' or `suffers'; from the Indo-European tel-, tla-, `to lift, support, bear'), another titan, led their war against the gods, and was afterward condemned by Zeus to hold up the heavens on his shoulders. The Pleiades were also nymphs in the train of Artemis, and together with the seven Hyades (`rainmakers' or `piglets'; individual Hyad names are not fully agreed upon) were called the Atlantides, Dodonides, or Nysiades, nursemaids and teachers to the infant Bacchus. The Hesperides (`nymphs of the west'), apparently not counted in this, were only three, and dwelled in an orchard of Hera's, from which Heracles fetched golden apples in his eleventh labor.
Ref above
Burnham's Celestial Handbook, Revised & Enlarged Edition, Robert Burnham Jr., 1976, Dover Publications Inc.
Star Names: Their Lore and Meaning, Richard Hinckley Allen, 1899, 1963, Dover reprint (Note: Allen's text on individual Pleiades stars can be found at Alcyone Systems.)
Star Lore of All Ages, William Tyler Olcott, 1911, 1931, G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York
Star Tales, Ian Ridpath, 1988, Universe Books
The Age of Fable, Thomas Bullfinch, 1942, Heritage Press
The Greek Myths, Robert Graves, 1960, Pelican Books
The Reader's Encyclopedia 2/e, William Rose Benet, 1965, Thomas Y. Crowell Company
American Heritage Dictionary, 1965
Fundamentals of Physics 2/e, David Halliday and Robert Resnick, 1986, John Wiley & Sons, New York
... Phaenomena (Appearances), written c.275 BC by Aratus of Soli. The Phaenomena of Aratus is based on a book of the same name written the previous century by the Greek scientist Eudoxus of Cnidus. No copies of the book by Eudoxus have been preserved; we have only Aratus’s poem. An English translation by G. R. Mair is available in the Loeb Classical Library series (Harvard University Press and Heinemann). A more recent translation and commentary on the poem is Aratus: Phaenomena by Douglas Kidd (CUP, 1997).
I referred to the French version of the Catasterisms published in 1821 by Abbé Halma. Since then, an English translation has appeared in the book Star Myths by Theony Condos (Phanes Press, Grand Rapids, 1997).
The constellation system that we use today has grown from a list of 48 constellations published around AD 150 by the Greek scientist Ptolemy in an influential book called the Almagest
The early Greek writers Homer and Hesiod (c.700 BC) mentioned only a few star groups, such as the Great Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades star cluster (the Pleiades was then regarded as a separate constellation rather than being incorporated in Taurus as it is today).
Atlas
27 Tau, SAO 76228, HD 23850, magnitude 3.62, spectral type B8 III (spectroscopic binary).
Pleione
28 Tau, SAO 76229, HD 23862, magnitude 5.09iv, spectral type B8 IVe (variable).
Alcyone
25 eta Tau, SAO 76199, HD 23630, magnitude 2.90, spectral type B7 IIIe.
Asterope
21 Tau, SAO 76159, HD 23432, magnitude 5.80v, spectral type B8 V;
22 Tau, SAO 76164, HD 23441, magnitude 6.43, spectral type A0 Vn.
Celæno
16 Tau, SAO 76126, HD 23288, magnitude 5.46v, spectral type B7 IV.
Elektra
17 Tau, SAO 76131, HD 23302, magnitude 3.70, spectral type B6 IIIe.
The Pirt-Kopan-noot tribe of Australia have a legend of a Lost Pleiad, making this the queen of the other six, beloved by their heavenly Crow, our Canopus, and who, carried away by him, never returned to her home.
Maia
20 Tau, SAO 76155, HD 23408, magnitude 3.87v, spectral type B8 III.
Merope
23 Tau, SAO 76172, HD 23480, magnitude 4.18, spectral type B6 IVe.
Taygeta
20 Tau, SAO 76140, HD 23338, magnitude 4.30v, spectral type B6 IV.
A separate membership issue is also worth mentioning. Mythologically speaking, Atlas and Pleione are not Pleiades, but rather the parents of the Seven Sisters.
The Pleiades star cluster, also known as the Seven Sisters and Messier 45, is a conspicuous object in the night sky with a prominent place in ancient mythology. The cluster contains hundreds of stars, of which only a handful are commonly visible to the unaided eye. The stars in the Pleiades are thought to have formed together around 100 million years ago, making them 1/50th the age of our sun, and they lie some 130 parsecs (425 light years) away. From our perspective they appear in the constellation of Taurus, with approximate celestial coordinates of 3 hours 47 minutes right ascension and +24 degrees declination. For northern hemisphere viewers, the cluster is above and to the right of Orion the Hunter as one faces south, and it transits -- reaches its highest point in the sky, midway between rising and setting -- around 4am in September, midnight in November, and 8pm in January.
The seven sisters then decided that they should not cause any more hardship to the remaining people in the tribe by the severe cold so they travelled far into the east, where they found the summer, and sent the warm rays of the sun back to melt the frost and ice.
The Warweenggary then left the earth altogether and travelled into the sky, where the constellation known as the Pleiades still represents their camp. They can be seen every summer and they bring with them pleasant warm weather, after which they gradually disappear towards the west.
Karambil climbed a huge pine tree which grew near his camp and hid amongst the topmost branches. Bullabogabun, however, gathered all the wood he could find and piled it into a heap at the base of the tree. He set fire to the sticks and burnt the pine tree to cinders. As the flames reached high into the air, Karambil was carried with them far into the sky, where he remains today near the Warweenggary as the star Alpha Tauri, and he now follows the sisters eternally, just as he did in his youth.
Then came the flood. The water rose up quietly from the sea, until it was higher than the tallest gum tree. It was like a vast blue plain, with only the tops of the mountains standing up above it like islands. The water kept on rising, and finally even the mountain peaks disappeared. The world was one vast, flat sheet of water, and there was no place for the Nurrumbunguttias to live. Many of them were drowned, but others were caught up by a whirlwind which carried them off into the sky, where they became stars, and some, who were gods on earth, became the gods of the sky. Among them was Pund-jil [Bunjil]. The Milky Way was made out of the fires that the Nurrumbunguttias had kindled when they were on earth.
Originally posted by NJE777
There is quite a lot on this
This site only presents the Greek legends... Why is it that Greeky mythology appears to be more credible? I dont feel it is 'fair' that oral cultures are pushed aside.
www.jintaart.com.au...
Dreaming
The Tingari are commonly described as a group of ancestral beings, with one or more dominate men or women, who brought law and culture to the people of the western desert regions.
The Tingarri stories recount creation time travels of a particularly important group of elders who taught ritual knowledge to initiates.
These designs are derived from ancient ground and sand paintings and from body decorations. It is said that this knowledge gifted group of men travelled across the country. This painting shows patterns relating to these travels, the pattern show their campsite as they systematically travelled across the country.
This painting forms part of the post initiate teachings for youths today and explains contemporary and traditional customs of the aboriginal people. During the initiation ceremonies, sacred information about the aboriginal Dreamtime are passed on to the initiates.
As these ceremonies are sacred to the Pintupi people, no further information could be given by the artist.
Creation beliefs vary from region to region but generally describe the journeys of ancestral beings, often giant animals or people, over what began as a featureless domain. Mountains, rivers, waterholes, animals and plant species and other natural and cultural resources came into being as a result of events that took place in these Dreamtime journeys. These features today are seen by many Indigenous peoples as confirmation of their creation beliefs. The creation stories explain the origins of the natural world and form the basis of Indigenous peoples' customary laws and the relationship between people and their environment.
Animals and plants are integral part of ancient spirituality and contemporary kinship systems. Most animals and plants are totems to one tribe or another, conferred on clan groups by the spiritual beings. Totems are seen as kin and these kin relationships mean that people must respect and care for their environment.
Originally posted by NJE777
I have had quite heated debates over 'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar. 'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.
Now, most people wouldnt understand the artwork, but I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it.
Originally posted by Byrd
Just a note, since I'm a For Real Anthropologist:
Originally posted by NJE777
I have had quite heated debates over 'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar. 'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.
Allow me to disagree, both as an anthropologist with some field experience AND as a professional storyteller (yes, really.)
Originally posted by Byrd
Now, most people wouldnt understand the artwork, but I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it.
We don't. In fact, the anthropologists were the ones working to save it from extinction and to save the people and the culture... and I assure you that we're academics down to the bottom of our field note-writing fingertips.
I'd point you to Franz Boas' work on the Tlingit and Haida of the American Northwest (and some traditions and art were preserved only becase of he and his fellow anthropologists) ... and googling on www.scholar.google.com... will show you that there's well over 1500 publications (including books on the rock art and one on the archaeology of the dreamtime) on the aborigines and the Dreamtime:
scholar.google.com...
There's also some huge collections and archives of oral recordings, traditions, photos, costumes, field notes on customs, etc, etc from around the world.
Here's just one of thousands of such collections:
www.nmnh.si.edu...
Originally posted by Harte
And excellent "redistribution of the lightning" Byrd. I couldn't agree with you more. I always suspect someone that makes claims about "academia" not doing their jobs, though usually it's along the lines of "those damn archaeologists hiding the truth about ancient civilizations" from us poor unfortunates that only seek wisdom. At least here there was no conspiracy theory advanced, just absence of knowledge on the subject; a condition you are rapidly correcting.