Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

Originally posted by Distracto
I was merely responding indirectly to another post on this thread referencing Masonic symbolism in movies. In fact, Leauge of extraordinary gentlemen doesn't even reference Masonry besides for the brief appearence of the Square and Rule.

psst it's the square and compass.

Let me be more specific. In each degree you have a rite of initation. Don't even try to argue it, it is documented by your fellow mason Charles T. McClenachan, 33.
Serious religious influence is presented in nearly every degree of initation from the 4th onwards.

I don't think you ever see a mason deny they have initiation ceremonies... but they are not "promotions."

You really should get the terms correct if you wish to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by pepsi78

All the simbols they have are connected to religios meanings.
Albert pike even specifies masonary is a religion.

Actually, Pike is quite clear that Masonry is not a religion. In this, he is in agreement with all other Masons:

Though Masonry neither usurps the place of, nor apes religion, prayer is an essential part of our ceremonies. - "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike, p. 6.

It has been documented that they form circles and hold hands just like druids do in religios ceremonies, same possition same aspect, same o same o.

Documented by whom? Needless to say, that's pretty laughable. What's even worse, not only are you pretending to know what we "do", but also what the Druids did. The fact of the matter is that no one knows anything about authentic Druidic ceremonies; it's all just speculation.

Nice try though.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by Masonic Light]

Documented by whom? Needless to say, that's pretty laughable. What's even worse, not only are you pretending to know what we "do", but also what the Druids did. The fact of the matter is that no one knows anything about authentic Druidic ceremonies; it's all just speculation.

Nice try though.

masonic ceremony


druid ceremony.


You forgot to tell me, what is the definition of an altar?
You have one in every lodge.

Originally posted by Distracto
Let me be more specific

I appreciate you being more specific. That allows me to give more specific answers.

You appear to have a little knowledge of freemasonry and are extrapolating that knowledge out, and superimposing your own beliefs about how freemasonry works on top if it. This is the 'Von Daniken' hypothesis - having pre-conceived ideas and making selective facts fit them. Lets look at your comments in a little more detail:

In each degree you have a rite of initation.

Only the first degree is known within masonry as Initiation. This is where one is initiated into the order and is the first regular step in freemasonry. Subsequent advancement is really just a progression from that initial step.

Don't even try to argue it, it is documented by your fellow mason Charles T. McClenachan, 33.

Now really, Distracto, that's quite disingenuous. Are you suggesting that no further discussion should take place on this matter because you have found a source which fits your preconcieved viewpoint? The author you quote wrote over 100 years ago, about a side order which has very little bearing or influence on freemasonry outside of North America. What do you think gives his opinion validity over the 100s of other masonic writers, who may or may not agree with him?

Serious religious influence is presented in nearly every degree of initation from the 4th onwards.

There are only three degrees in freemasonry. You appear to be talking about the Scottish Rite, which is a Side Order to freemasonry, and in my constitution is not one of the more commonly followed routes. I'm not a member of the Scottish Rite so I really can't comment on your allegations, and I believe I've already addressed your issues regarding religious references in Craft masonry.

Not that I expect you'll believe a word I say, of course, but you'd be surprised how little that matters to me. I would, however, be interested in knowing how you have become so 'knowledgeable' about freemasonry when it would appear you are not a member and thus not privy to how it all fits together in practice. Perhaps you are one of these people who believe that Life can be understood through reading and observation rather than experience.

Originally posted by pepsi78
You forgot to tell me, what is the definition of an altar?
You have one in every lodge.

Oh... you must mean the pedestal. It's not called an altar in my constitution. But hey... lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story, huh?

We have four in our lodge, and they're all pretty much used as desks. Except the one on the north, which is the Secretary's pedestal *

(* apologies for masonic in-joke)

Oh, and on the business of masonic ceremony versus druidic ceremony, I've just googled up a few pictures of groups of people standing in a circle holding hands. They included schoolchildren, business people, christians and hippies. I'm sure they're all worshipping some pagan god or other

[edit on 16-6-2006 by Trinityman]

albert pike the greatest mason quotes/

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion"!

more from pike

Masonry, like all religions, all the mysteries, Hermeticism and alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages or the elect. It uses false explanations and misinterpretation of its symbol to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the truth, (which it calls Light) from them, and to draw them away from it. Page 7/8

Oh, and on the business of masonic ceremony versus druidic ceremony, I've just googled up a few pictures of groups of people standing in a circle holding hands. They included schoolchildren, business people, christians and hippies. I'm sure they're all worshipping some pagan god or other

[edit on 16-6-2006 by Trinityman]

Tell me when did you last see people siting aroung in curch in a circle holding hands?

Originally posted by pepsi78
Tell me when did you last see people siting aroung in curch in a circle holding hands?

Often, and I've been a part of it. Have you never prayed that way? Holding hands is a universal way of making a connection with ones neighbor. It symbolizes the joining together of many as one, for whatever purpose.

Do you have a problem with people doing this?

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by pepsi78
Tell me when did you last see people siting aroung in curch in a circle holding hands?

Often, and I've been a part of it. Have you never prayed that way? Holding hands is a universal way of making a connection with ones neighbor. It symbolizes the joining together of many as one, for whatever purpose.

Do you have a problem with people doing this?

I dont have a problem that masons pray like druids, why should I.
But since everything comes from egipt one can imagine that everything is linked to it.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
albert pike the greatest mason quotes/


Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion"!

Pike was certainly a great Mason, but I don't know if I'd call him the greatest Mason. After all, most Masons who are not members of the Southern Jurisdiction USA of the Scottish Rite have never heard of him. But, in any case, as I mentioned before, Pike is clear that Masonry is not a religion. Following is the quote you gave above, in it's complete context, from p. 213-214:

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and .Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.

Here, Pike claims that the "true religion revealed to the Patriarchs" is to help others, and be charitable and loving to mankind. This is analogous to what is written in the Epistle of James, where it is said that the pure religion is to be charitable to those in need. Pike rightly states that these are Masonic principles, which put the "true religion" into practice. He did not say that Masonry was a religion (as he previously, and correctly, stated that it was not).

more from pike

Masonry, like all religions, all the mysteries, Hermeticism and alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages or the elect. It uses false explanations and misinterpretation of its symbol to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the truth, (which it calls Light) from them, and to draw them away from it. Page 7/8

This isn't even close to claiming that Masonry is a religion. He says that like religions, and a host of other things, Masonic symbolism is incorrectly interpreted in the exoteric sense in order that the unworthy do not gain what is not their just due, or, to paraphrase Christ, that pearls are not cast before swine.

Originally posted by pepsi78
[
I dont have a problem that masons pray like druids, why should I.
But since everything comes from egipt one can imagine that everything is linked to it.

Who told you that everything comes from Egypt? There are certainly cultures far older than the Egyptian civilization, from which the Egyptians borrowed, just like everyone else.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by pepsi78
[
I dont have a problem that masons pray like druids, why should I.
But since everything comes from egipt one can imagine that everything is linked to it.

Who told you that everything comes from Egypt? There are certainly cultures far older than the Egyptian civilization, from which the Egyptians borrowed, just like everyone else.

Like the mesopotans you mean
Their culture was based on demons, they had a demon for everyhting.
And to counter this there is nothing

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion

It says black on white, religion is religion no matter how you put it.
Tell me where does the piramid and the eye originate from?
Tell me where does the compas and square originate from?
Tell me where does the sfinx originate form?
Tell me where does the obelisc come from?
None of them are integreated truly in to cristianity.
The only true word of cristianity remains the bible.
And I'll bet my 2 cents on that, and I'm not talking about tradition.
Everything you got as a simbol is either linked to a underworld god or to pagan culture.



[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Majic
[ a loose piece of Masonry fell and struck him soundly on the head.
And killed him.
Masonry Kills!

(Nods) Yes, Masonry can be fatal sometimes. You can die of deafness as well. I once heard of a man was was walking along and didn't the steamroller that came up behind him. Lol....
Seriously, this masonry thread is a bit much. Religion has caused more and bloodier wars than masons ever have.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Like the mesopotans you mean

Their culture was based on demons, they had a demon for everyhting.

Um, that's an...er..."interesting" theory you've got there, Slick. Somebody give this guy a Ph.D. in anthropology.

It says black on white, religion is religion no matter how you put it.

What "says" it? You?

Tell me where does the piramid and the eye originate from?

The All Seeing Eye originated in India. The pyramid probably originated with the Greek mathematicians.

Tell me where does the compas and square originate from?

From ancient construction workers.

Tell me where does the sfinx originate form?

The Sphinx was a creature that originated in Greek mythology.

Tell me where does the obelisc come from?

India.

None of them are integreated truly in to cristianity.

So?

The only true word of cristianity remains the bible.

Who's talking about Christianity? Who's talking about the Bible? What does that have to do with the subject under discussion?

And I'll bet my 2 cents on that, and I'm not talking about tradition.
Everything you got as a simbol is either linked to a underworld god or to pagan culture.

I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you are neither an anthropological nor historical scholar, and are therefore unqualified to make pronouncements concerning "pagan" (i.e., pre-Christian) culture.

Um, that's an...er..."interesting" theory you've got there, Slick. Somebody give this guy a Ph.D. in anthropology.

I can see you are trying to avoid a problem, little mesopotamians on the wall of the lodge worshiping, dont know anything abot that.

What "says" it? You?

No pike says it

The All Seeing Eye originated in India. The pyramid probably originated with the Greek mathematicians.

there are artifacts saying otherwise, how about horus, hmm I'll come up with a pic.

Tell me where does the compas and square originate from?

From ancient construction workers.

You ment to say that the compas and sqare is one of the most important aicient egiptian simbol?, you mentioned something about aicient, but for some reason you forgot to mention egypy

The Sphinx was a creature that originated in Greek mythology.

I didint know that greeks had faros.



I can prove that all you simbols are from underworld gods and pagan cultures.
Let me grab some history links that I have and some picks to prove it

I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you are neither an anthropological nor historical scholar, and are therefore unqualified to make pronouncements concerning "pagan" (i.e., pre-Christian) culture.

I told you to leave tradition be, if you want to talk about cristianity we will take the bible, tradition has just too many influences,many gorups can profit from it and add as they please for their own intrest, masonary is one of them, I can prove it with the bible,I chalange you.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Trinityman
Do you have a problem with people doing this?

I dont have a problem that masons pray like druids, why should I.
But since everything comes from egipt one can imagine that everything is linked to it.

Who said anything about masons praying like druids? It seems, though, that you believe Christians pray like druids too. Now you can complain about freemasons all you want, but if you start having a go at Christianity you might get me upset.

Originally posted by pepsi78


I can see you are trying to avoid a problem, little mesopotamians on the wall of the lodge worshiping, dont know anything abot that.

Little Mesopotamians on the wall of the lodge worshiping? This question is probably redundant, but what the hell are you talking about?

No pike says it

Pike is extremely clear that Masonry is not a religion. So are we. The only people who make the claim that it's a religion are non-Masons. Obviously, if Masons don't consider Masonry their religion, then it's not a religion, regardless of what some non-Masons say.

there are artifacts saying otherwise, how about horus, hmm I'll come up with a pic.

The symbol of the eye as the Eye of Shiva in India is older than the Egyptian symbol; actually, it's older than the civilization Egypt itself.

Tell me where does the compas and square originate from?

You ment to say that the compas and sqare is one of the most important aicient egiptian simbol?, you mentioned something about aicient, but for some reason you forgot to mention egypy

No, I didn't mean to say it. The square and compass were never "important ancient Egyptian symbols".

I didint know that greeks had faros.

In Greek mythology, the Sphynx was a creature who guarded the desert; anyone who wanted to cross had to answer his riddle, or be eaten. The riddle of the Sphynx was solved by the Greek hero Oedipus.

I told you to leave tradition be, if you want to talk about cristianity we will take the bible, tradition has just too many influences,many gorups can profit from it and add as they please

for their own intrest, masonary is one of them, I can prove it with the bible,I chalange you.

I don't want to talk about Christianity. This isn't a Christian website. Furthermore, you can't "prove" anything with the Bible. Since many things in the Bible have been proven to be wrong, it cannot be used as a unbiased source of correct empirical knowledge.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Trinityman
Do you have a problem with people doing this?

I dont have a problem that masons pray like druids, why should I.
But since everything comes from egipt one can imagine that everything is linked to it.

Who said anything about masons praying like druids? It seems, though, that you believe Christians pray like druids too. Now you can complain about freemasons all you want, but if you start having a go at Christianity you might get me upset.

Eye and piramid.
1 the piramid and the eye represents aicient egiptian culture of the god horus and orisis, orisis being god of the uderworld, horus being the son of orisis.
Artifact from egiptian museum.

The eye is the sun, the sun is god(not our god ceck the bible) but horus, and he is above the piramid on top looking at the people , while they pray to him every morning, basicly they praid to the sun every morning so horus wont punish them.
Your interpretation about where it came from are totaly unrealistic, it started with the god of the sun in aicient egipt, it's related to ra, horus , orisis the one you worship.
basicly everithing comes from there compas and sqare is an artifact that you will find in egiptian museum, and it's 100% atribueted and represents aicient egipt.

pepsi78

I think you're getting mixed up between Masonic Light and me. It would appear that's not the only thing you're mixed up about.

I don't want to talk about Christianity. This isn't a Christian website. Furthermore, you can't "prove" anything with the Bible. Since many things in the Bible have been proven to be wrong, it cannot be used as a unbiased source of correct empirical knowledge.

So your saing not to trust the bible great stuff, yet you have one in every lodge,you dont make sence,ohh but that is just for the surface , since you in your on statement say it has proven wrong.