The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Quote: "the Messiah was clearly Prophesied as a Warrior King like David who would lead the Jews in victory over their oppressors. Jesus was hardly that....

Other than the stories, how's that proof of Jesus's Actual Existence going? Not so good, huh?"



Enkidu - I am going to have to Chastise you for being mis-leading! I am aware of the Scripture that you are referring to - was there not One but TWO coming MessiahS foretold? One was to be a
Warrior King - as you have mentioned & the other was to be a PRIESTLY King!!! Obviously Jesus was not a Warrior King (Which is why I think the "I have come to bring a Sword" line is Fishy - the Writer was obviously trying to turn Jesus into said Warrior Messiah) - but I believe that he DOES have the Qualifications to be the Priestly/Spiritual King/Messiah!!!

P.S. Other than the stories, how's that proof of a "Historical Moses" Actual Existence going? Not so good, huh?

See how easy that is! Faith is a Funny thing - it is not necessarily based on "Fact" & "Proof" - that is why I find the title of this thread is amusing!


Proton - am I to believe that you do not realize that there is such a thing as "Semitic Christians". I believe that you should look into the subject before you lose some Credibility (start with the Native Palestinian Arab Christian Community). Also there are Jews that are fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English & many other languages - there have been mistakes & mis-translation in Scripture Historically granted - but these are being eliminated today using modern Tools. Also there are many Denominations of Christianity not just "Roman Catholic"! There are people in the world today that practice a form of Christianity that conforms very much to Judaic Law (The Torah at least - I am not really sure what is up with the Talmud). They are more or less Jews that believe that Jesus was in fact the Messiah (or the Priestly Messiah if you will).

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

See how easy that is! Faith is a Funny thing - it is not necessarily based on "Fact" & "Proof" - that is why I find the title of this thread is amusing!

Jesus is clearly the Messiah prophesied in the Torah. The facts are there, plain and simple. It was prophesied, and it happened.

What is happening in the world is all prophesied. People just either don't know, can't see, or deny the facts.

The suffering savior was prophesied and has been here. The warrior king Messiah will appear. He is the prophesied Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Has it occured to you that maybe the "Christian God" & the "Hebraic God" are not the same God & that we are OK with that?

Nope

You're right. There's no historical proof that Jesus ever existed. Just anecdotal evidence. He could very well just be a convenient literary construct used to illustrate a point. The Greeks were all about that. All those "dialogs" that the philosphers used to write. Jesus could just be another one of those.

So, no there was no Jesus, no Messiah in any form.

The only person you can hope to save you is yourself.

Originally posted by Enkidu
You're right. There's no historical proof that Jesus ever existed. Just anecdotal evidence. He could very well just be a convenient literary construct used to illustrate a point. The Greeks were all about that. All those "dialogs" that the philosphers used to write. Jesus could just be another one of those.

So, no there was no Jesus, no Messiah in any form.

The only person you can hope to save you is yourself.

ONLY somewhere around 300 fulfilled prophecies, let alone tens of thousands of witnesses and plenty of documented history. I have to laugh at your comments. Denying the Truth, is ignorance.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time F4 by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Peter said that they were not following fables, but were eyewitnesses of what happened. And yet says, prophecy is so accurate, it is far more accurate than an eyewitness account.

The facts are there. Sure, you can deny the truth, but what would be the purpose?

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Quote: "The facts are there, plain and simple."

In that case I am sorry to have to Inform you that the Torah and the Bible (both New & Old Testaments) are not "Fact Books" - but rather old Books of *FAITH* written by MAN under "Divine Inspiration". The purpose of these Books & of Religion/Spirituality in general is to get Insight into the Nature of God & to Learn to Live in a way that is Beneficial to both ourselves & the rest of Humanity. = ->

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "The facts are there, plain and simple."

In that case I am sorry to have to Inform you that the Torah and the Bible (both New & Old Testaments) are not "Fact Books" - but rather old Books of *FAITH* written by MAN under "Divine Inspiration". The purpose of these Books & of Religion/Spirituality in general is to get Insight into the Nature of God & to Learn to Live in a way that is Beneficial to both ourselves & the rest of Humanity. =

->

Well, the Old Testament contains the history of the Jews. Archaeologists have used the Bible to locate many ruins of past cities. That's a fact. The Old Testament also contains hundreds of prophecies that are 100% accurate, including predicting all of the historical world empires. All prophecies that have not occurred yet are clearly in position to occur. We are in the end times.

The Gospels contain eyewitness statements of the factual events that occurred in the life of Jesus the Messiah. The New Testament also contains factual letters written by leaders, particularly Paul, offering instruction and prophecy. The final book of Revelation is of course a prediction of the endtimes. It predicts the rise of the revived Roman empire which is currently happening with the rise of the European Union.

The Bible is a book of "factual truth". If you have the FAITH to believe these facts you can live the life it says you can live.

ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE TO HIM WHO BELIEVES.

Well, the Old Testament contains the history of the Jews. Archaeologists have used the Bible to locate many ruins of past cities. That's a fact.

Yes, you are correct. I will concede that point.

The Gospels contain eyewitness statements of the factual events that occurred in the life of Jesus the Messiah. The New Testament also contains factual letters written by leaders, particularly Paul, offering instruction and prophecy.

Now I think that you are stretching a bit! It has been stated on ATS MANY times before that the Gospels were written at least 100 Years AFTER the Death of Jesus. Also Paul never met Jesus in person.

The final book of Revelation is of course a prediction of the endtimes. It predicts the rise of the revived Roman empire which is currently happening with the rise of the European Union.

Well how do you know that the "U.S." is not this "Revived Roman Empire" - after all are WE not the ones Invading other countries?

[edit on 24-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Mod Edit: How to Quote – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 24-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Hey SS, tell me about that avatar, I can't tell whats going on.

Now I think that you are stretching a bit! It has been stated on ATS MANY times before that the Gospels were written at least 100 Years AFTER the Death of Jesus.

Nope, I am not stretching anything, check the facts.

Also Paul never met Jesus in person.

Yes he did, check Acts chapter 9, it's short.

Well how do you know that the "U.S." is not this "Revived Roman Empire" - after all are WE not the ones Invading other countries?

I believe that the U.S. is likely part of this empire.

I see that I am wasting my time! You need to look up the Definition of the word FACT Sun Matrix! The Bible is NOT a "Fact" book - it is a Faith book.

You see I myself have Faith - I myself am a Christian - but I am NOT Naive enough to Believe that the Bible just fell out of the Sky/Heaven just the way that it is today. Look around you my friend Politics is EVERYWERE! People within the Church & of the same Faith have been playing games with each other for a long time now! Just look at what happened to Jesus himself - he was taken to a Kangaroo Court, Found Guilty & Crucified - for what - being Controversial?! It was none other than a *POLITICAL ASSASSINATION*! This kind of Political & Religious Extremism is still with us today in this world. I really don't want to be a part of that personally - I try not to let myself be Manipulated by others. I would rather just be Reasonable & Open Minded - I would rather just practice my Spirituality in private!



[edit on 24-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I see that I am wasting my time! You need to look up the Definition of the word FACT Sun Matrix! The Bible is NOT a "Fact" book - it is a Faith book.

I looked up the word fact, and it didn't change a thing. The Bible is a book of factual truth.

You see I myself have Faith - I myself am a Christian - but I am NOT Naive enough to Believe that the Bible just fell out of the Sky/Heaven just the way that it is today.

Well, I think you need to check the facts for yourself, and quit believing the nonsense that is passed around. I tire of hearing how the Bible is not accurate and has been changed. The facts say otherwise. The Dead Sea Scrolls has validated much of the Old Testament. Fact.

I try not to let myself be Manipulated by others. I would rather just be Reasonable & Open Minded - I would rather just practice my Spirituality in private!

You have been manipulated all your life, you are just unaware of it. So you want to be open minded. Try this.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Like I said...

The Jews came up with this whole thing, and they don't think Jesus fit the bill. Get over it, end of story.

You have voted Stunkums for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Finally!

Someone else said it. Christians have the nerve to STEAL almost their ENTIRE faith from the Jews and Pagans, then back door and send them to hell. I gotta admit, it's a pretty cunning system...too bad it ain't real, though. But, Christians will continue to believe otherwise, and I will continue to laugh at them...

As others have mentioned, in order to for the Bible to be used as factual evidence it must first be proven to be factual. Being factual doesn't mean proving that some of the information contained within is true, but that ALL information contained within is true. I think it is pretty clear that this is not the case with the Bible. With this in mind, if one still wishes to use the truthful elements in the Bible as fact, an alternative is to prove that these isolated elements are true. Evidence that prophecies have been fulfilled is one such method, however the evidence cannot come from the Bible seeing as how it's integrity is suspect. The same applies for using Bible prophecies that have been unfulfilled to prove the contrary view.

At any rate, in my opinion, whether or not Jesus is the Messiah is of little importance. From what I have learned about Jesus, Messiah or not, he is one fine example of a human being and we would do well to follow his lead adn heed his teachings. Of Course the majority of what I know about Jesus is derived from the Bible, thus it is reliant on the assumption that this section is true.

While I admire you Sun Matrix for your steadfastness for the bible as a fellow christian, the bible has yet to be proven factual. Yet it doesnt mean I dont believe the bible as a factual source. I say that its only factual to those who understand and believe the bible. It's not proven factual because of the simple fact that it requires faith to believe in it and that also
its so easy for anyone to twist the words in the bible or view it from a different point of view that it seems to contradict itself. It is because of this it can't never be proven a factual and reliable source and also due to the fact it does not provide clear anwers to the difficulties of life or the mysteries of this supposively God forsaken universe which is also why it so widely criticized. Which is alright because I will let faith carry me through my life as supposed to limited knowlege of facts, laws, and theories of the universe that the human race has so far comprehended.

Remember, it was Jews who started the whole thing. Some Jews believed, others did not. Later, the Jews who believed the Messiah had come changed their names to Christians, or Christ followers. So, in reality, it could be said the Jews believed it and started an entire huge branch of Judaism as a result.

As to the Bible being factual, if the Bible is not factual, than nothing from antiquity is factual, either. There are more recovered manuscripts of parts of the Bible, or whole Bibles, than any other document from antiquity. No other document has been as scrutinized, yet others are accepted blindly since the few facts we can confirm prove true, while the Bible has a different standard, false until proven true.

You can read more about it in parts 1-3 (and eventually the rest) in my sig

There is a difference between having factual elements and being 100% factual. Practically all information has some factual elements, yet it is not all considered to be 100% factual as a result. One of the downfalls of the Bible is that it provides so many opportunities to be proven wrong. These other blindly accepted documents that have been proven to be completely true is the whole reason why they are accepted. Had the Bible been proven to be completely true it would be accepted as well.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Like I said...

The Jews came up with this whole thing, and they don't think Jesus fit the bill. Get over it, end of story.

Actually, God came up with the whole thing. He said that the builders(Jews) would reject the cornerstone. They wrote the Torah, it is there for them to see and yet they can't. Just as prophesied.

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

Like I said......

Where are your facts? Find the truth and let your story begin.

Actually, from a historical POV, the first ever mention of the hebrew people reside's in egypt, around the time of Akhenaten or Amenhotep IV, which ever name you prefer. This is the earliest written information we have on these people. There are some account's in the egyptian history of a people they called the hyksos who's story parallels that of the biblical exodus. There are records of the Jews being called the descendents of the hated hyksos as well.

Akhentaten was the originator, or follower of a religion called atenism, the worship of the sun as the sole deity over all of mankind. It's also generally accepted that Moses (or Osarseph) was an Egyptian high priest. A corrupt one at that.

Well, I'll just leave it at that and let you read the source's and determine whether to accept the written history around the rise of monotheism, Moses, and the hyksos (hebrew) invasion.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.jesusneverexisted.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
home.tiscali.nl...
www.katapi.org.uk...

The written history around the beginings of the 'biblical' era are really interesting and tell a most enlightening story of where, how, who, and why. It just take's the time to research and put all the peice's of the puzzle together. And the need to remember, the bible isn't the only source of written history and is very apologetic to it's own belief's.

Akhentaten was the originator, or follower of a religion called atenism, the worship of the sun as the sole deity over all of mankind.

Ah, I see you have found the Matrix, the lie that blinds the world. Yes, the false god, Aten comes from "the composite deity Ra-Amun-Horus. These previously separate deities had been merged with each other."

Taken right from your source we can trace the false god Aten to a composite diety of Ra-Amun-Horus. Which we can trace to Osiris, Isis etc., which we can trace to Nimrod and Semiramis. The lie that blinds the world.
I suggest again that you read my Matrix thread. I can't get the link to work but here it is.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's also generally accepted that Moses (or Osarseph) was an Egyptian high priest. A corrupt one at that.

Actually, it is generally accepted that Osarseph is a mythical figure. Also:

Manetho apparently states that these events are the real history behind the biblical story of Moses and the Israelites, an argument that Josephus rejects as absurd. Many modern scholars interpret it as an early example of anti-Semitism (especially the claim that Jews are descendants of exiled lepers).

And also the suggestion from your source that Moses is also Joseph is laughable.

Others identify Osarseph as Joseph, to which his name is very similar, a situation in which Joseph's interpretations of the dreams of the pharaoh are identified as the dreams of Amenhotep III. These are not mutually exclusive interpretations; it is possible that Osarseph is both Joseph
(interpreter of dreams and friend to the pharaoh) under Amenhotep III, and Moses (a monotheist, leading the rebellion) under Akhenaten. The identification of Osarseph is, for obvious reasons, highly controversial.

I suggest checking archaeological finds relating to Joseph, the man who was once over Egypt. The evidence is there.

Well, I'll just leave it at that and let you read the source's and determine whether to accept the written history around the rise of monotheism, Moses, and the hyksos (hebrew) invasion.

I accept the fact that you have found the Matrix. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not hard find, it's everywhere.

The written history around the beginings of the 'biblical' era are really interesting and tell a most enlightening story of where, how, who, and why. It just take's the time to research and put all the peice's of the puzzle together. And the need to remember, the bible isn't the only source of written history and is very apologetic to it's own belief's.

Let me attempt to save you a little time. When you dig up this history, take a few extra minutes to trace the origins back to Nimrod and Semiramis. It all originates in Babylon. Same lie, different names and forms.

A few of those site's do list ancient text's written around those time's. I'm sure you can take the time to do a search for them on your own.