The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Originally posted by Enkidu
The Messiah was clearly prophesied as a warrior king like David who would lead the Jews in victory over their oppressors. Jesus was hardly that. If Jesus existed at all.

Other than the stories, how's that proof of Jesus's actual existence going? Not so good, huh?

Warrior king? show me.

You can't help it if you are superman, I'm just wondering if you are strong enough to hold yourself back. I looked at the Isaiah 52 angle and I think it is clear in verse 14 that they are talking about a man. The man is the Messiah that is talked about in Isaiah 53.

That could be one interpretation, but then we're totally disregarding the format of the rest of the chapter. Chapter 52 is describing exile and redemption of the Jewish nation. We can't necessarily jump from one story line into another with an entirely knew meaning in one whole verse. This is called taking out of context. There are many example's where god speak's to the Jewish nation in the singular. The Jews (Israel) were consider as 'one' so to speak. God's chosen.

Alright, you are a smart individual, so follow along. He says that "Yasdeek" means "will make just" and then throws in (by bringing the Torah). You can't just change things to fit what you think, you have to translate the whole thing. If he wants to change "will justify" to "will make just" because of the word "Yasdeek", if have not problem with that. But then you can't change, "for he shall bear their iniquities" to "by bringing the Torah" for absolutley no reason.

Actually, you've got it backwards. Seeing as how it's a Jewish prophecy, it make's more sense to learn the proper Jewish prophecy. The author of that site is pointing out where the Christian's mistranslated certain words and verse's to take on entirely new meaning's. The prophecies come from the Jewish nation, not the Roman Christian nation.

So, no the explanation about Isaiah 53 cuts not butter. You have to see that.

Actually, it cuts five sticks of butter. Seeing as how we're using Jewish prophecies, it make's more sense to get a better understanding of the language used by the Jews and not the mistranslations of the Christians.

[edit on 21-3-2006 by Prot0n]

Originally posted by shihulud
How can Isaiah 52-53 be referencing jesus when it specifically states
'10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days'
He shall see his seed - thought jesus never had kids?
he shall prolong his days - being crucified at 30 odds is living to a ripe old age eh?
You'll need to do better than that!


G

Who is this guy, this reproach, who is despised?

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped F69 upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. 25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. 27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. 29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Ah, there's his seed in verse 30. Wonder who they are?

That could be one interpretation, but then we're totally disregarding the format of the rest of the chapter. Chapter 52 is describing exile and redemption of the Jewish nation. We can't necessarily jump from one story line into another with an entirely knew meaning in one whole verse. This is called taking out of context. There are many example's where god speak's to the Jewish nation in the singular. The Jews (Israel) were consider as 'one' so to speak. God's chosen.

Point taken, but the verses 13,14 and 15 in Isiah 52 is clearly speaking of a man as is Isaiah 53

Actually, you've got it backwards. Seeing as how it's a Jewish prophecy, it make's more sense to learn the proper Jewish prophecy. The author of that site is pointing out where the Christian's mistranslated certain words and verse's to take on entirely new meaning's. The prophecies come from the Jewish nation, not the Roman Christian nation.

I said I am willing to accept his translation of the word "yatsdeek" I just don't accept this off the wall, from nowhere (by bringing the Torah) comment. That is not the translation. Show me the Hebrew that was translated (for he shall bear their iniquities) and should have been (by bringing the Torah). By bringing in the Torah is clearly not a translation but just an inserted comment to make everything seem ok

Actually, it cuts five sticks of butter. Seeing as how we're using Jewish prophecies, it make's more sense to get a better understanding of the language used by the Jews and not the mistranslations of the Christians

.
I don't think that we are going to get very far if you deny the obvious. I was expecting more out of you superman.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Well I was raised a christian (Protestant) then in my mid teens my mom became a Catholic . I stopped going to church when I was twelve (I thought it was boring and everything). Now I'm just not religious because well it's really hard to know what's really true or not. Besides a lot of christians are real nasty hypocrites ( I know not ALL are just some). Then again people from other religions are often nastier, like muslims. As for proof of whether or not Jesus is the messiah, well I guess I have no absolute proof either way...Jesus being the true messiah is a nice thought though I guess. But man some of his followers are shady...

I was raised Catholic and became a Christian. The Muslims are nasty because they are following a false god. The Muslim people have been fed a crock and as such attack Christians and Jews, certainly not the will of God.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Man go back to Europe with that bull#. So just because Islam didnt rip the OT from the Jews they are false? At least the Quran stands on its own without stealing somebody else's entire religion nearly word for word. If you took the OT out of the bible you wouldnt have #. So get the you know what outta here with those baseless claims just because you fear the fact that Islam is growing. Whites have killed more Jews than Muslims have so quit the BS. They are the most antisemitic And didnt the first Jihad start because yall went off on a war path? So what will of God is that?

[edit on 22-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Point taken, but the verses 13,14 and 15 in Isiah 52 is clearly speaking of a man as is Isaiah 53

Ok, despite you agreeing and then continuing to act in such a manner. Let's assume those three verses are miraculously jumping out of context and speaking about one individual only.

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness

Has Jesus ever been considered physically unattractive? Post the relevent verse that would show this.

I said I am willing to accept his translation of the word "yatsdeek" I just don't accept this off the wall, from nowhere (by bringing the Torah) comment. That is not the translation. Show me the Hebrew that was translated (for he shall bear their iniquities) and should have been (by bringing the Torah). By bringing in the Torah is clearly not a translation but just an inserted comment to make everything seem ok

I don't know hebrew myself, but there are many website's out there with the same idea's worded differently. You need to understand, the Torah contain's the Jewish prophecies, so he's not really bringing the Torah in for no reason. Seeing as how we're reliant upon Jewish prophecy, it really does make more sense to learn more about the Jewish terminology and translations within the Torah.

I don't think that we are going to get very far if you deny the obvious. I was expecting more out of you superman.

There's a difference between obvious and tunnel vision. The Christian mistranslation and changes to Isaiah are wrong and nothing more then insertions to make everything ok.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Enkidu
The Messiah was clearly prophesied as a warrior king like David who would lead the Jews in victory over their oppressors. Jesus was hardly that. If Jesus existed at all.

Other than the stories, how's that proof of Jesus's actual existence going? Not so good, huh?

Warrior king? show me.

Do your own research. Start with Elijah and work your way up.
philologos.org...

[edit on 22-3-2006 by Enkidu]

The Messiah as a Blighted Beggar

R. Joshua ben Levi [asked Elijah, the prophet who it is said will be the harbinger of the messianic age] "When will the Messiah come?" "Go and ask him himself." "Where is he sitting?" "At the gates of Rome." "What will identify him?" "He is sitting among the poor lepers; while all of them untie all [their bandages] at once, and rebandage them together, he unties and rebandages each separately, [before treating the next], saying 'I might be needed, so I must not be delayed.' "

Where exactly is the verse where Elijah says something about a warrior Messiah?

Sun Matrix - what unconvinving evidence that you give. The fact that Psalms were written before the supposed birth of christ still gives no proof that it is a prophecy of christ.


G

Originally posted by Enkidu

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The facts say Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Can you prove it is not so?
Bring your facts.

The Old Testament clearly (and I mean CLEARLY) states that the Messiah will be called Immanuel. Show me in the New Testament where he is called that. He isn't. End of story. He wasn't the Messiah. So there. Nyah.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mathew is a Christian Gospel Sun.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Mathew is a Christian Gospel Sun.

The question was could I find it in the New Testament, and I did.

Point being, Jesus was not named Immanuel, nor was the messiah to be born of a virgin demi-god conception. I understand the meaning behind the name, but this doesn't lead one to assume god incarnate. As we know, the early Christians made extensive usage of pagan holidays and cutoms in order to 'win over' the heathens and convert them. The word used to 'describe' the 'virgin' birth is almah, this word mean's young woman/maiden. The word for virgin is bethulah. There's a distinct difference. We can also look to the OT for guidence.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4) This doesn't mean Jesus and God are one, it literally mean's GOD is ONE.

“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." (Num. 23:19) God has no physical form. He is above time. He is infinite. He is eternal. He can niether be born nor die.

"God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18) Jesus is not needed as a middle man for a personal relationship with god.

Christian usage of pagan demi-god traditions does not a Messiah make.

You should read this judaism.about.com...

12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. (Deut 30:12)

You already have god's word and his law. It was already given long ago. You have the option to heed his word or continue the path you've chosen.

2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The NT has added and taken from the Lord's word. Jesus teach's to not observe the Torah and God's commandment's. Nor does Jesus himself uphold full observance or bring anyone into full observance of the Lord's commandments.









[edit on 23-3-2006 by Prot0n]

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Prot0n]

ProtOn,

How about a little backgroud info.

Are you athiest, Jewish, Muslim, Gnostic etc.. What do you believe and how did you come to believe it?

Seriously what's with all the god pushers this past week!?!

And No, it's not fact. As I'm sure has been said many times in this thread (that I have not bothered to read because I've undoubtedly heard the same argument here a few hundred times before), the bible was writen by man (who makes mistakes), revised several times by man (who makes mistakes) and translated into countless languages by man (seeing a pattern).

EVEN IF the original information was 100% true, it would be twisted and mutated by now making it less than true, if not false all together.

So when will it be FACT? When Jesus or god or the fairy princess provides the evidence that facts require by making it self-evident to everyone and not just the people who WANT to believe it is.

No offense against your beliefs; whatever religion you want to believe is cool with me. I'm merely debating the logic of your statement.

Atheist, but I accept the possibility of there being a god, I just don't believe there is one. I enjoy researching the bible and it's history, both OT and NT. One doesn't have to have faith in a diety to research or learn the teching's in any religous document's. Many of the teaching's are basic common sense teaching's. The prophecies I'm really interested in due to the fact that Jesus does not fulfill them and in some cases goes against the prophecies.

What's the exact resoning behind your question? I'm sure there's something that made you ask this and something more going on beside's just a mere question.

I hope if Jesus is the true Messiah he will punish anyone who has wronged beyond forgiveness wether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Atheist, but I accept the possibility of there being a god, I just don't believe there is one. I enjoy researching the bible and it's history, both OT and NT. One doesn't have to have faith in a diety to research or learn the teching's in any religous document's. Many of the teaching's are basic common sense teaching's. The prophecies I'm really interested in due to the fact that Jesus does not fulfill them and in some cases goes against the prophecies.

What's the exact resoning behind your question? I'm sure there's something that made you ask this and something more going on beside's just a mere question.

I asked the question because I am puzzled why you can't see.

I would have guessed that you were a Jewish Athiest simply because of the reasoning about the following:

I said I am willing to accept his translation of the word "yatsdeek" I just don't accept this off the wall, from nowhere (by bringing the Torah) comment. That is not the translation. Show me the Hebrew that was translated (for he shall bear their iniquities) and should have been (by bringing the Torah). By bringing in the Torah is clearly not a translation but just an inserted comment to make everything seem ok

I guess I don't understand how you can't see that the statement (by bringing the Torah) is a comment and not a translation.

When it comes to the Messiah, some people don't want to see, and some people can't see. I'm just trying to get a feel of what the situation is.

Have enjoyed discussing this with you though, even though we haven't gotten far.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
I hope if Jesus is the true Messiah he will punish anyone who has wronged beyond forgiveness wether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu.

That's a pretty horrible thing to say ... I do hope you overcome such hatefull thoughts.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Where exactly is the verse where Elijah says something about a warrior Messiah?

Gee whiz, do I have to do everything for you?
Why Jesus Doesn't Fulfill the Jewish Messiah Requirement