2 weeks to war with Iran

I do see where ElTiante is coming from, yet considering that America is a continent indigenous peoples of which were systematically exterminated by invaders from Europe, I see how how the honest to God, the real original Americans, not the natives off course, are the worlds leaders in everything, being original, true, red blooded Americans, perfect Christian examples of the masters race, all knowing, best in everything, all honest, all around great, and not at all like all those other people.

Yes, wiki is a great depository for peoples half baked factoids.

"first practical point-contact"

"credited with the invention"

"Scottish-American scientist and inventor"

"Today, he is still widely considered to be the inventor of the telephone, although this matter has become controversial, with a number of people claiming that Antonio Meucci was the 'real' inventor (in June 2002, the United States House of Representatives passed a symbolic bill officially recognizing Meucci for his contributions to the invention of the telephone). "

"independently developed and patented in the United States in 1837 by Samuel Morse"

Samuel Morse was born in Charleston, Mass. On April 27, 1791. He was an American of Scottish descent.

"In 1938, Fermi won the Nobel Prize in Physics"


Enrico Fermi, now there is a real American name, probably born in Iowa or something, right?

So what is it that you're saying?

Originally posted by loam
Eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, and we eliminate the relevancy of the entire middle east...plain and simple.

Well i would point out that the US is not very dependent on the ME anyways and that it costs far more to get that oil safely ( 50 billion USD spent on ME 'security-read instability) than it does almost anywhere else. The US is in fact imo in the ME to perpetuate constant instability thus hiking global oil prices which leads to ever more demand for the USD on world currency markets. I am sure you are familiar with the theory but anyways....

Stellar

Bush has just said that he will not hezitate to make a preemptive strike against any country deemed to be a threat.
Nuke 'em

Pre emtive strikes are tricky things. Usually you need ABSOLUTE evidence and all that junk. Not for us Americans

Um....... are we actually going to war again? We already failed in Iraq (Weapons of Mass Destruction) (your supersoaker is of higher lethality than anything that has been found there :lol. Bush is crazy, and everyone is starting to realize that cause he going on the national polls.

Welcome to ATS Born British.

Just a little reminder:

Originally posted by SimonGray
Terms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s)


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[edit on 18/3/06 by JAK]

That's not nice. At least he admits that he doesn't really know much about the rest of the world:

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar
Although their countries are probably not as bad as I think. I live an isolated life in the US where I know very little about the world outside my borders, I would probably change my attitude if I knew more. There is probably more good then bad in these parts of the world, I just only see the negative.

If half the world realize that they don't have all the answers, humanity might actually make some real progress in social skills. Deep down we're all still cavemen killing our neighbours.

The earliest archaeological findings of human skeletons have spearheads stuck in their ribcages. Today we have better spears (missiles) and more devastating spearheads (nuclear warheads).

Primitive minds with fancy technologies.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
That's not nice. At least he admits that he doesn't really know much about the rest of the world:

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar
Although their countries are probably not as bad as I think. I live an isolated life in the US where I know very little about the world outside my borders, I would probably change my attitude if I knew more. There is probably more good then bad in these parts of the world, I just only see the negative.

If half the world realize that they don't have all the answers, humanity might actually make some real progress in social skills. Deep down we're all still cavemen killing our neighbours.

The earliest archaeological findings of human skeletons have spearheads stuck in their ribcages. Today we have better spears (missiles) and more devastating spearheads (nuclear warheads).

Primitive minds with fancy technologies.

Well that's part of human nature, ain't it - to compete with each other.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
If half the world realize that they don't have all the answers, humanity might actually make some real progress in social skills.

Humanity hardly has a problem with 'social interaction' anyways and it took a great deal of organization and effort to start the mass slaughters we consider normal these days. When you leave people alone ( even if their heavily armed ;in fact i think it's better than way) their bound to work something out and normally with relatively little killing , and normally the right kind of people, anyways.

Deep down we're all still cavemen killing our neighbours.

We ( according to anthropology) had vastly different species of humans living together for at least a hundred thousand years ago with the 'superior' type not killing the inferior type in any way we could find. Funny how all this killing,hatred and racism seems to be relatively modern 'inventions'.

The earliest archaeological findings of human skeletons have spearheads stuck in their ribcages.

Yawn*. Your buying into hype that never panned out but is exactly what they want us to believe about yourselves. Don't be a sucker and believe that we are all crazed stupid animals deep down. The guy with the spear in the gut probably did not stop messing with the spear-wielding-guy after being beaten on the head a few times. There was a time when tribes could not afford to lose members for WHATEVER reason.

Today we have better spears (missiles) and more devastating spearheads (nuclear warheads).Primitive minds with fancy technologies.

I do not believe our minds are primitive in any dangerous-to-our self kind of way as we are selfish creatures who tend to look out for our own interest. By extension peace and quite is in our interest as it makes self preservation possible. War/competition for resources is largely unpredictable and even by your logic that should have invalidated all the war and destruction we see these days. The question then becomes in just who's interest is it all when it's not beneficial to the average 'animal' on the street?

Stellar

Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed to "one week to war with Iran"?

Originally posted by StellarX
Yawn*. Your buying into hype that never panned out but is exactly what they want us to believe about yourselves.

Who are 'they' that you are talking about?

I'm not buying into any hype. I'm simply making an observation. There have always been wars. If not wars, battles. If not battles, bloody fights. It's just human nature. The stronger, more powerful or more influential person usually can't help but abuse their position. Not saying this is always the case, but it happens often enough that they have a phrase for that. You know what that phrase is.

True, most people would rather live in peace and quiet, but if they have the ability, they wouldn't be adverse to the idea of using force (even deadly force) to coerce another person, group or nation. This has always been the way with people in power. Most times the coercion is subtle, but sometimes it's quite obvious.

That's all I'm saying. Maybe the 'average "animal" in the street' appears benign and peaceful, but give the person power and see how long they'll remain benign. Only a small fraction of people can actually remain incorruptible.

A very very small fraction at that.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Who are 'they' that you are talking about?

The people writing our history.

I'm not buying into any hype.

Then i would not have said that you were.

I'm simply making an observation. There have always been wars. If not wars, battles. If not battles, bloody fights. It's just human nature.

Human nature is to keep what you have not to go steal from another human being risking life and limb; that sort of thing only results when a great deal of conditioning has taken place. It's not natural and it never has been it seems.

The stronger, more powerful or more influential person usually can't help but abuse their position.

Well if we give the wrong type of person influence these are the things that result. Power does not logically lead to abuse and once again it takes a great many conditions. Can a tribe leader abuse his position too much when he sleeps 20 paces from you? Abuse happens due to choices and power structures created specifically so that abuse of power could in fact take place.

Not saying this is always the case, but it happens often enough that they have a phrase for that. You know what that phrase is.

Well it would be wrong to say that as people who are forced to serve their community have no choice but to do so. If the fail to serve it and are not removed by the people it's normally a function of the power structure that makes it almost impossible. Human nature is in fact constantly under pressure and attack to keep it from asserting itself.

True, most people would rather live in peace and quiet, but if they have the ability, they wouldn't be adverse to the idea of using force (even deadly force) to coerce another person, group or nation.

So your basically calming that powerful positions, or power to affect change, will turn us all into abusers of it? Well why have you chosen to believe that considering the system that prevents worthwhile leaders getting to the top?

This has always been the way with people in power. Most times the coercion is subtle, but sometimes it's quite obvious.

Yes it varies and it's not always a bad thing. Change does not have to be a bad thing as long as it is not made impossible to retain the beliefs you like.The modern consumerism culture has not been introduced against our will ( even if 300 billion dollars worth of advertising seems to indicate that our will is hard to change/focus) as much as it has changed our will over time slowly eating away at our resolve.

That's all I'm saying. Maybe the 'average "animal" in the street' appears benign and peaceful, but give the person power and see how long they'll remain benign.

Self interest keeps dictators in power as much as it keeps people taking the actions required to get rid of them. Self interest cuts both ways and a society that lets it's leaders act contrary to their self interest ( by oppressing the people and risking their own lives in the process) clearly wants or deserves no better.

Only a small fraction of people can actually remain incorruptible.
A very very small fraction at that.

This is what you would believe watching movies and reading the lies we call history. Fact is average people given power over other will act in their mutual best interest which normally does not involve uncalled for risks on either side.

Corruption is something that happens with the slow passage of time and thus requires constant effort over many many years. When you present people with choices, and give them time and means to work out the likely consequences of each, you are not going to get them to do something contrary to their own interest very soon. People are not stupid and our social systems speaks volumes on the sustained efforts ( ten years of formal schooling to start with) it takes to corrupt human beings to make them the vapid modern consumers that they are.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
Abuse happens due to choices and power structures created specifically so that abuse of power could in fact take place.

You may be on to something here. Reminds me of the Prison Experiment

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. You see humanity as fundamentally good, requiring a lot of effort to corrupt. I see humanity as easily corruptible, greedy and selfish, inclined to take the easy way out given the opportunity.

You could say you're a 'glass is half full' person and I'm a 'glass is half empty' person. You could also say you're an idealist while I'm a pragmatist.

Whatever it is, we are both way off topic

Originally posted by Beachcoma
You may be on to something here. Reminds me of the Prison Experiment

Well i would like to think it's logical as it's not exactly something i have not read a great deal about.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

That is not agreement and i do not get involved in that.

You see humanity as fundamentally good, requiring a lot of effort to corrupt.

No i do not think we are good or bad or any such a thing. We simply are and our conditioning forms what we become. If that process is manipulated, as we know it is, those in power can form us trough government and 'norms' to become what they need us to be for their own benefit.

I see humanity as easily corruptible, greedy and selfish, inclined to take the easy way out given the opportunity.

Well even Hitler realised that humans are not evil as much as they are corrupt so who's to argue. I believe we are selfish and that we will take the easy way out ( hence we become corruptible) since it's our interest not to make things harder than they need be. I however think that greed ( wanting to acquire 'stuff' endlessly) is mainly a response to our current social conditioning where the state and business world conspire to trap us by our own irrational acts in the pursuit of conditioned 'wants'.

You could say you're a 'glass is half full' person and I'm a 'glass is half empty' person. You could also say you're an idealist while I'm a pragmatist.
Whatever it is, we are both way off topic

Pragmatism is IMO the ultimate expression of the slave class you know; go wherever the pressure looks easiest to bear.... Well at least we can agree on that one last thing at least.

Stellar

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar

If I had nuclear weapons I would nuke over a dozen countries.
I just only see the negative.

Oh man! Shades of the third anti Christ!!

What about the Iranian Bourse? I don't hear anything about it.

Originally posted by jefferson101
What about the Iranian Bourse? I don't hear anything about it.

I heard it is delayed by 4 month.

Originally posted by mikesingh

Originally posted by knowledge23

If US can consider dealing with India/Pakistan on Nuclear issue, with constructive negotiation considering the broader human community, i am sure US can settle the difference. All difference can be settled if individuals decide to sit down and discuss rather than imposing ideas or thoughts in an alien country....These are just thoughts.....

I doubt US can take a stance against China or N Korea if it had commited itself to the war in Iran.

Lol, you've got the big-power equations wrong.
Why does America not want a nuclear Iran?

1. It's a muslim Shia majority country which America suspects is aiding militarism/terrorism in the Middle East.
2. America's grand plan of spreading 'western Style' democracy in the Middle East will be a non starter as long as there is a viable threat from Iran.
3. With the present regime, this isn't possible.
4. A nuclear powered Iran can threaten Western economic interests in the Middle East.
5. End of Israeli dominance and leverage in the Middle East resulting in a paradigm shift in the geo-political scenario.

And, needless to say, it all boils down to OIL!!

[edit on 15-3-2006 by mikesingh]

Mikesingh,

This strengths my arguement even more. As I have clearly stated in my note that there has to be a hidden agenda. You have clearly explained the reasons.

The point that I am trying to make is instead of imposing ideas or controlling power, that same should be used for the benefit of us all. In this case the people of Iran. I do understand US stance in this issue, however i do not agree with the point of spreading western culture in their country.. How do we spread western culture? Even if they started now it would takes a long time for the western culture to penetrate the rigid culture. What you mean by western culture is a broad field of posibilites. It is something which is not a part of this forum hence would not like you to elaborate on the aspect. However from the point of view of control of oil i do agree because the US economy is heavily dependent on it.

Rather than creating a sense of threat, negotiations are the best means to resolve issues and as every problem if we look at the cause there is always a way to resolve it.

during the war even Iranians that were11- 13 years old were still giving iraqs republic guards a hard time. Iran is such a different country with different history and culture, taking over iran is just impossible and something most people would not do or think of.

History and culture will have little to do with anything. The sad part is that so many innocent people will die. Children in Iran like to play with toys just like western children.

The problem lies with religious fanatics hiding behind a battered and delusioned people and given a mouthpiece called politics and equally nuts political leaders from the west who love oil and money.

In my opinion we are screwed.




Edit: Censor circumvention.

[edit on 23-3-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by Mcphisto
History and culture will have little to do with anything. The sad part is that so many innocent people will die. Children in Iran like to play with toys just like western children.

History has everything to do with this situation, and for that matter with every situation before it. Innocent people ALWAYS die but what is even worse is that it's normally the innocent AND defenseless that suffers most.

The problem lies with religious fanatics hiding

Their not hiding behind their people as the people elected them and supports them it seems.

behind a battered and delusioned people

Which is mostly the doing of the United States and Britain when they overthrew a elected government to impose upon the Iranian a despotic mass murderer so far kept under control by the system in place.

and given a mouthpiece called politics and equally nuts political leaders from the west who love oil and money.

The Iranian people are understandably angry after what they had to suffer for so long and due to American and western duplicity. Their leader represents their anger but imagining that their leader will act recklessly just cause the public sentiment is behind him is reaching miles beyond what is justified.

Political leaders from the west love neither oil or money as those are just means towards a end. They love control and the power it gives them over others.

In my opinion we are screwed.

Considering what your opinion is based on i can understand why you think that. I have my fears but i do not see large numbers of nuclear mushrooms in the ME any time soon.

Stellar

Edit: Ditto.



[edit on 23-3-2006 by intrepid]

Uh oh!!
It's been two weeks! WW3 must be here! Oh no!
In the next few hours the US will summon a 500,000+ man army out of thin air with all the 1000s of tons of equipment they would need and place them in the middle east ready for their invasion today.

According to some in this thread





In reality
Iran situation a "long way" from any military solution