21 year old GI killed in Masonic mystery

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF

However, to those that have info. Take note that the Lodge along with the offending rite web sites have been removed!

Really? They have? How can we verify this assertion when you have not provided any information pertaining to the lodge and respective grand Lodge to back up your claims? It sounds like additional fabrications to support your previous comments. You can state anything you desire but it is obvious that you can not support your outlandish accusations.

Originally posted by Edelweiss Pirate

In order to become a third-degree Mason, Wilder knew he would have to endure being beaten on his buttocks with a paddle by fellow Masons.

Well this sure didn't happen to me, and to my knowledge has never happened to anyone and is nowhere in any of the rites, so I am assuming that someone confused the fraternity in Animal House with Freemasonry.

Or I am not attractive enough for S and M.

So here I sit, reading halfways through this thread that concerns my dead friend.

Only to see that half ways through what may have started as a critical, objective discussion has turned into a hen hunt, and a display of different beliefs.

Honestly, I don't care what you all believe in. I couldn't care less if you believed in a Lemming God and all jumped off a cliff following his guidance.

All I know, is that that night, beat or not, alcoholic or not, even though his "brother" openly stated that Wilder passed out, he did NOT call an ambulance. He did NOT get help. He left him ALONE. In the shower. And went to bed. He let him die.

If this is a display of Masonic Brotherhood, by golly, I wish noone to be "brothers".

I myself do not ever in my life want to be around anyone that is involved in Masonry again. This is not to say that all of them are the same. But the people that watched this "kid" die, have walked away with less than a black eye. If that is acceptable in this organization...I won't even go there.

I hope one day you will experience what it means to loose a friend too early, by the hands or neglect of others, so you can understand the pain.

Originally posted by deadfriend
All I know, is that that night, beat or not, alcoholic or not, even though his "brother" openly stated that Wilder passed out, he did NOT call an ambulance. He did NOT get help. He left him ALONE. In the shower. And went to bed. He let him die.

How many times have YOU called an ambulance when a friend has passed out drunk? Even if his friend had helped him back to his bunk, he would have died. Alcohol poisoning doesn't really care WHERE you are, just how much you drank.

I myself do not ever in my life want to be around anyone that is involved in Masonry again. This is not to say that all of them are the same.

But they might as well be, because that's how you've decided to treat them?

But the people that watched this "kid" die, have walked away with less than a black eye. If that is acceptable in this organization...I won't even go there.

By golly, you're right. I'm NEVER joining the Army if such behavior is acceptable there.

[edit on 3/19/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by Edelweiss Pirate
My dear friends, these are not tactics. It is simply the truth.

It is obvious that you are an anti-mason, I think that point is clear.....

But as to the truth....me thinks you keep your self blinded by your own desire to believe something else....

[edit on 3/19/2008 by Choronzon]

reply to post by Choronzon


Choronzon,

Edelweiss Pirate was clearly and definitely an anti-Mason. However, bear in mind that the post you're replying to is fully two years old and I can't remember the last time EP posted in SS.

FWIW
Fitz

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Yeah it has been awhile. But he/she was the OP.

Since this thread has been resurrected I suppose I can add what I know. It seems that no one from PH Masonry has come forward and actually answered the questions. I'm obviously not a Mason, but I knew many Masons when I was in the Army. When I began trying to get a rise out of these Masons by putting a Masonic sticker that I bought from Army Clothing and Sales on my laptop to display, they began coming out of the woodwork and asking me what I knew about the Masons.

I told them "very little", which was why I was trying to spark conversation. Most of them just laughed and walked away. However several talked briefly to me and gave me the URL for the Prince Hall Masonry website. When my platoon sergeant saw the sticker, he exclaimed, "Where'd you get that light?!" He seemed angry but then began laughing. He told me I didn't want to know because it was "painful", then looked at one of the other platoon sergeants and said, "Isn't it?" He then gave me the URL for Prince Hall Masonry website also, and told me it would answer my questions.

He then laughed again and said, "But really, you don't wanna know about it. It's painful!" Perhaps the military brand of Prince Hall Masonry condones hazing? I know that none of these Masons that I knew would have much interest in the occultic practices or esoteric wisdom, and they rarely showed much moral restraint. Anyway, I had thought that this meant that the initiation rituals were painful for all Masons, but perhaps it is just for Prince Hall Masons. (Incidentally, I may be mistaken but I've heard something about standing in water and being electrocuted? Sounds like fun...)

Originally posted by an3rkist
Anyway, I had thought that this meant that the initiation rituals were painful for all Masons, but perhaps it is just for Prince Hall Masons.

More likely Army Masons. By all accounts I've heard, basic training is fairly sadistic. Seems natural that a similar mindset would be extended to other "initiations".

reply to post by JoshNorton


I suppose you could say Basic Training is "sadistic". It definitely wasn't a cakewalk. But I don't see how our experience could be translated into Masonry and become hazing. (At least not from a leader's/NCO's standpoint into the higher "ranks" of Masonry.) I mean, sure in Basic Training you had guys put bars of soap in socks and and beat the crap out of some guy while he's in bed, all because he had a mental breakdown and got the rest of us in trouble, (not that I condone that crap), but none of that is Army sanctioned. The drill sergeant's are sadistic in their own way, but paddling a guy's rear end is a far cry from the crap we go through in Basic Training.

My guess is there's an offshot of the Prince Hall Masonry that has built its ranks with these Army guys who are just looking for a fraternity to be a part of where they can drink and stuff together, and for them it's become more of the kind of fraternity you see at college's and whatnot.

reply to post by JoshNorton


I'm pretty sure this has everything to do with Army and nothing to do with Prince Hall. Last year, along with a half-dozen brethren fron our AF&AM Lodge, I attended a Prince Hall initiation. There was some verbal mocking of the 'slave' boys as they were initially walked around the Lodge but there was nothing even remotely like what an3rkist describes.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Me? Whoa there! I haven't described anything about Freemasonry, only experiences from Basic Training, and then what some of my NCOs told me about their experience in Prince Hall Masonry, (it being "painful"). I can see how different lodges might do things differently, and possibly the Prince Hall lodges in the military towns and overseas near the bases have gone astray and started doing things a little differently, a little more "painfully". It's just speculation, but it would make sense.

It has been rumored (I have absolutely no evidence outside of a few mentions of possible hazing) that PHA has a tendancy for hazing. I can not prove this, but it has been mentioned by several sources.

Also, apparently a news release was made recently about the incident:

freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com...

I didn't check too closely as I was in a hurry, but I believe it's the same event.

Originally posted by an3rkist
I mean, sure in Basic Training you had guys put bars of soap in socks and and beat the crap out of some guy while he's in bed, all because he had a mental breakdown and got the rest of us in trouble, (not that I condone that crap), but none of that is Army sanctioned.

Likewise no form of spanking or physical abuse is sanctioned in Masonic ritual. So we're on the same page: it could happen, but it's not supposed to, and if it does, it's likely without the knowledge of the higher-ups.

To the person who u2u'd me ('cuz I'ze runnin' outta u2us wiv nuffin what for to get more foreseeably)

Eeee heee heeee heee heeeee!

Bingo (in a word).

Originally posted by an3rkist
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Me? Whoa there! I haven't described anything about Freemasonry, only experiences from Basic Training, and then what some of my NCOs told me about their experience in Prince Hall Masonry, (it being "painful"). I can see how different lodges might do things differently, and possibly the Prince Hall lodges in the military towns and overseas near the bases have gone astray and started doing things a little differently, a little more "painfully". It's just speculation, but it would make sense.

Indeed. It is just speculation and like I said "everything to do with Army and nothing to do with Prince Hall".

Originally posted by JoshNorton
How many times have YOU called an ambulance when a friend has passed out drunk? Even if his friend had helped him back to his bunk, he would have died. Alcohol poisoning doesn't really care WHERE you are, just how much you drank

Several times. And they have lived. Alcohol poisoning does not kill everyone. "oh he has alcohol poisoning, no need to call an ambulance, he's going to die anyways, how bout we just go to bed" Listen to yourself. I knew Wilder and people involved personally. And the reason that coward did not call an ambulance is that he had enough dirty laundry he had barely gotten away with and was laying low. Do not talk about things you know nothing about. Fine brothers who let someone die.

But they might as well be, because that's how you've decided to treat them?

People that watch without action and try to rectify wrong-doing have no place in my life. Especially ones that think they can become "better men" by joining some sort of cult. Wilder was sucked in by his "friends". In MY opinion the weak are sucked in for the benefit of anyone but themselves. You are not a religious or racial minority as you are trying to display yourself. In MY opinion you have no more credability than a cult like Scientology. And trust me, I have NO personal religious preference.

Originally posted by deadfriend
People that watch without action and try to rectify wrong-doing have no place in my life. Especially ones that think they can become "better men" by joining some sort of cult. Wilder was sucked in by his "friends".

Thanks deadfriend. You just confirmed to me that you aren't what you claim to be.

Cult.....

Right.....

Here we go again.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

I am the one that helplessly had to watch young men being mishandled and stitch them up when they got back from some meeting that was supposed to build their character. Do not talk about me. You do not know me. I am the one that was threatened if I ever come forth. Nonetheless I have.

reply to post by JoshNorton


I had heard of forms of hazing in PH lodges as well.. most of them where from over seas from friends who became Masons after joining the military, oddly, all of them joined PH and not a regular lodge (and all where white as well).

The hazing that was described, and only by hearsay, was nothing major.. name calling, rough handling, a more "chaotic" scene then what would normally be presented..

But then again, I never associated this with PH Masonry because I understand all of this took place with soldiers in unofficial lodges (or actually in Bahrain they where in a "real" lodge) .. and so it most likely reflected soldiers and not Masons .. and most joined for the wrong reasons I would assume.

Not all soldiers are like that either.. when talking about Masonry it is way to easy to group all people together, when in reality the diversity is very large.

Not to pick on PH.. I have heard of incidents in Regular Lodges as well, for instance, moving the body in the 3rd degree and making it a .. rough journey for the poor fellow inside..

anyways, nothing major, nothing to consider illegal and nothing dangerous. Nothing I condone either.

Lets not forget, Masons are Humans first. (or .. are we?)