The Bible condones slavery

I agree with you . My concern is not about slavery either.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Maybe the bigger question to ask here is why does this topic incite such passion in people on both sides of the wall? What is it that everyone is so damned angry about and what are we pinning it on? I just caution people to consider that Christianity and Religion are very different things. If you're going to condemn something, condemn the Church - all of them because they took Christianity and turned it into something else. I challenge you to study Christianity, not the Church, to read some reputable scholarly investigations into the spirituality of the tradition. Then lets talk about Christianity without confusing it with the Church.
The Jesus that exists in the New Testament was a man angry at the "Church" of his day and he sought to change things. Now it cost him his life mind you, and for a time a new or renewed spirituality may have arose - but in a short time that spirituality was perverted by the inclinations of people and the influences of society. Jesus never asked to be worshipped - but he did ask us to embrace his message of love. The church that condemns homosexuality has not embraced that message.
Its the Church that strayed folks, not Christianity, and the Church that strayed was steered by people just like you and me. The ivory tower crumbles once you realize what species you are...

I don't think that the question of how many of the world societies had slaves is the issue. What is the issue is using this info to discredit the belief that it is right.
step by step now...
Is slavery morally wrong? I say yes, others may disagree.
Does the bible directly condone slavery? from what I've read, yes.
Does this mean that some lessons taught in the bible are morally wrong? It looks that way to me. If someone can change my mind they are welcome to try.

The problem is with the bible being viewed as a devine work written by the hand of God. This whole issue wouldn't be nearly as upsetting if people accepted that the bible was written by man. Then one could say, "those were the times"

The issue of the Chinese having slaves is moot. It would be another thread unto itself, but I doubt it would have the same response.

Ethically, morally, and socially, slavery is wrong. In those times it was too. Just easier to get away with. But, in my view, slavery is still commonplace. I say they only abolished the word slavery. It is no different than a poor man today having to work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week in order to afford to look after his family. In Canada, it is well past midyear, before the Tax Freedom day. With interest on loans, insurance, and taxes of all kinds, the average person works most of the year for free, in a way.

Sorry folks,

to my knowlege the Chinese did practice slavery. But this does not count. Hardly ..slavery is slavery. ...but only one view counts here..dont look at it world wide..only provincialness will suffice to make others feel guilty for what they percieve as their version of how the world was and is.

I dont buy it. This is a sensitive subject but provincialness will not make it any less sensitive.

Chinese slavery is not moot...it is slavery. Is it not??? and practiced into the 1800s and early 1900s.

THe unspoken implication here is that God owes us a explanation for slavery.. God answers to us for everything. Another version of this is we deserve...we are deserving...God must move over for us and let us play through and place blame.
Its perfectly logical and reasonable. It just doesnt make good nonsense.

I am not intrested in carrying this burden or being stuck in a time warp...either way. To many people have made a career out of this kind of thinking. I dont buy into it and never will.

Thanks,
Orangetom

What I meant was Chinese slavery is moot to the discussion at hand. We are talking about The Bible, and slavery. If anything, bringing up the subject of Chinese slavery either confirms that slavery exists worldwide, and that God did that on purpose, or that slavery is a common human instance of immorality, and that God doesn't have control of this.

Would it have mattered one iota if God's thundering voice rang throughout the heavens for man to give up their slaves?? Reckon how long it would have taken before "Satan" would suddenly have developed the uncanny ability of a very loud vantriloquist.

Slavery existed, just what do you think it would have taken for God to get rid of it? another flood? maybe a few meteors?

The masters thought that they were superior, and that was why they had the "devine right" to be lord over the lesser of the species. and well, look at the current relationship between the arabs and the western world. the more they act out in anger, and hatred, and blow up things, behead people...well, they seem to only be reenforcing that feeling of superiority in those of the western world, aren't they..

but what if they strove to actually be the better of the two. ya know, loved those of the western nation, did the work they were given to the best of their ability, were loyal friends, ect.....seems to me that well, maybe the masters would begin to find it difficult to see them as inferior and deserving of their state, wouldn't it?

at the least, the loyal servants would be such good workers, the masters would become so overlly dependant on them, forgetting how to do this work themselves, that well, soon, they would end up being the "inferior" one.....something, which, at least in my opinion, is what is happening.

[edit on 27-2-2006 by dawnstar]

Slavery existed, just what do you think it would have taken for God to get rid of it? another flood? maybe a few meteors?

Maybe it would have taken some sort of emancipation proclaimation. Of course there was a war when we tried it, but who would go against God's will anyway. I'm sure they would know what would happen. Because God smites those who do wrong, right?

"Because God smites those who do wrong, right? "

you haven't been smitten yet, have you?? I haven't either. I think it's more like, God smites those who do wrong, if he choses to, but then he'll also smite those who do good, if he choses to.....and well, what the heck, let's just say that God will do whatever he likes, whenever he likes, regardless of what we lousy humans proclaim in his name?

just an off the wall question for all of yas......

umm.......

if an awesome creature formed in from of you, lightening streaking from his fingertips, and eyes that peirced your soul to the point where you couldn't move, and well, whatever else that woud be required to convince you that you stood no chance in heck of ever overpowering the thing, and proclaimed to be your God, would you waste the things time debating his devinity with him???

and well,

if you suddenly found yourself in a very strange place, with technology thousands of years more advanced than anything you've ever seen, and well, were told that you were created to be slaves in this strange world....how much time would you waste debating theology with these people?

and well, in either case, short of your God pulling a miracle out of his hat on your behalf what difference would it make just what you chose to believe?


just what would you do??

Well this thread has run its course into the dirt. Has anyone checked the definition of the word, "ethnocentrism" lately? Maybe it could be posted here?

Originally posted by TxSecret
Produkt, you are not correcting anyone of faith here. (You really don't have the right or the power to do that, you can merely give us your angle.. eh?)

You can call anyone you want a racist pig but when you start calling God that.. well, that's where you really cross the line. Again, attempting (and I DO mean attempt) to villify God paints a HORRIBLE picture your character and spiritual state. Let me summarize it for you: I don't care if you don't agree with the Bible but I humbly suggest that you don't blashmeme God in that manner.. (For your own sake).

AGAIN, God DID NOT condone slavery, he merely ALLOWED it.

Get over it.



Produkt, try reading Job again.

What are these threats TxSecret? Are you speaking for God? Geeze, last time I heard, most wars were caused by people miraculously speaking for God. If God wants to defend itself (who are we to say whether it is male or female?) then it will have a direct conversation with Produkt. And yes, I do believe people have a right to question their faith as well as their "god." If we, as human beings, lied idle throughout the centuries and never once questioned our religious "leaders" (or leaders in general) or our "God," then I think we would've ceased to exist a long time ago.

As far as slavery goes, turning your head when something horrible is going on is actually worse than condoning it!

Don't try and speak for God, let it speak for itself. The last time I checked, God isn't some animal that PETA needs to speak for. Or is it the fact that you have to speak for your God say more about who its creator was?

[edit on 2-27-2006 by EmbryonicEssence]

Rasobasi, orangetom had nothing else but a diversion. Why? Because those verses are clear as day!

To you people saying I'm just trying to make Christians look bad, why haven't you disputed the verses I posted? Those verses CLEARLY lay out what people are supposed to do with their slaves. CLEARLY.

Instead, y'all say stop bashing this and other people had slaves that. Why won't y'all address those verses? Supposed, the Christian god specifically TOLD Moses to tell the people laws and rules, including how to manage slaves and sell your own DAUGHTER into slavery! Ain't no getting around that! According to y'all, this book is the word of god, yet it clearly condones and regulates slavery.

Like Rasobasi said, this wouldn't be as much of an issue for the Christian argument if this book is not the word of a deity. It would be easy to say that was then if y'all concede that it is manmade. But to do that, y'all lose your "absolute rightness" for your religion. Quite the conundrum, indeed.

What I've come to learn from many on this site is, the bible is only the word of god for that these people CHOOSE out of the bible to be the word of god. Their god give's them the devine right to own slave's, but they refuse to exercise that right due to man's law's against slavery. I mean, c'mon you religous guy's. Screw what some man made law's say! Go get some slave's! No need for you chosen people to be doing all the hard work! Worship your god as HE COMMANDED YOU TOO!

I still dont buy your point. Slavery was practiced by muslims too. It was practiced in the orient. If you want to get down to bare nuts and bolts ..slavery is the natural way of intelligent logical reasonable men. Historically this has been practiced throughout many nations. Not mostly one nation or culture or religion. My point is that your posting is so provincial on this topic. Slavery has been practiced throughout recorded history in different cultures and nations all across this globe....why only one post or culture??? One direction?? One blame????
IN my opinion your post doesnt give you any high ground on this issue!!
None at all.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Are you blowed?

Are you even reading my posts? Did you even read my first one? I ALREADY acknowledged that various people have used slavery.

You ask why not mention the others. Simple; I don't constantly have to hear them go on and on about how they're right and everyone who isn't with them is gonna be barbecued forever. I don't hear Buddhists or Taoists yakking about how they have the one true religion. No, all the pompous, arrogant religious stuff I hear is from Christians.

I'm actually surprised; I would expect the Jews, the "chosen ones," to be the most arrogant religious people. Not so, though; it's the Christians I have to hear this crap from. Sure, I wish I could tell them all to shut the hell up with that garbage, but of course, they wouldn't. And I ain't trying to censor a religion, I just don't wanna hear these fairy tales all the time.

So, since I have to hear this taurus feces on a regular basis, I take every opportunity to point out hypocrisy with this religion. As for the Jews...they got caught in the crossfire because they originally made up this whole thing.

truthseeka, I feel that the reason you hear more pontificating from Christians is that you reside in a predominantly Christian society. If you had lived in Saudi Arabia all your life, would you feel the same? If anything you would be saying the same thing about Islam. I agree that Buddhists have a quite consistently accepting and tolerant, non-aggressive perspective. But there are folks from every camp that will declare their exclusive 'righteousness'. As far as slavery goes, from what I have read, the slavery that was practiced in the US is in contention for the absolutely worst form of it. In many other places, slaves would eventually be accepted and assimilated, or else there was a definite time period they had to serve before becoming free again. Any form is vile, of course, and from what I recall, on a related note, 1992 was the year the last nation (Mauritania), outlawed slavery.

I agree with Blackguards post about wisdom. You come across as a person about at the end of thier rope and dont know how to handle people Truthseeka.

I will tell you Truthseeka...that I do find very much ignorance and lack of wisdom among my fellow Christians. They often seem to know little about any history ..even Christian history. I should not be surprised by this lack of knowlege but often I am.
First off...you need to know...no Christian can send you to heaven or hell. That is not in thier authority. Not their choice to make. Any Christian doing so is "breaking wind". I have often reminded many of them of this. They can be so dumb they just dont get it. This is Gods job ..not ours.
What many Christians do ..which so many dont appreciate is make declarations of what the Word says or declares. People tend not to like or appreciate this line of thought. I dont spend alot of time quoting verses from the Word...especially with unbelievers...as they are generally what I call "Dead people". The Word has little effect on them so why bother. It is for the Living and only they will respond to it.
IN the same vein...many who claim to be Christians are often masquerading as Christians in how they practice their religion. They dont often understand what the Word says. They are still on milk and not strong meat. They are out here trying to convert dead people and dont seem to know that they are wasting their time. They dont seem to realize that it is not us who makes the change in a person..but God Himself..by His will not ours.
I suspect that this is one of the sources of irritation with Christians.
No Christian can send you to heaven or hell. Not possible. Amazing to me how many Christians dont seem to know this line of thought.

As to the pompus arrogant religious stuff you hear all from Christians. In this I think you are quite provincial again. Take a closer look at the world around you ....much closer. I suggest you look at the history/biography of a man in recent times named Salaman Rushdie.

As to Tarus Feces...I hear more of that daily from the news and television programming. Daily. Then I go to work and hear my co workers repeating much of what they absorb from these sources. Little thinking going on. By the way ..most of them are not Christians.
One of the biggest arenas of Tarus Feces...though there are many others... is the Religion of Sports and Sports gods/idols. I never waste my time on this tarus feces....with the exception of certain selected events in the Olympics...otherwise ..not intrested. I also dont like to hear my coworkers repeating sports drivel/dogma. By the way..I dont jump on them about it...I just seperate myself from it. I can assure you there is much more talk and discussion going on at work about the religion of sports and the sports gods/idols than about Christianity. Much much more. The other religion talked so often at work is about women/phat yams..and hot cars and hot car gadgets. I dont spend time talking about these religions either.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I'm at work and don't have a Bible handy at the moment - Lord forgive me - but I'm pretty sure there is a very different understanding of Slavery in the Bible. At some points in history, as described in the Bible, Slavery was much like the definition of it Western Culture history. At other places in time, such as the New Testament, the slaves were regarded more as family members and siblings. Why are we harping about slavery? Deuteronomy commands us to sell our daughters to her rapist, we are to execute a neighbour for violating the sabbath and other commands considered to us to be insanity. The Bible is inspired by God just as any aspect of creation is but it was done to a flawed humanity constrained by intellectual, spiritual and social limitations. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of arguing about something that nobody here knows much about and people are becomming inflamed ! Am I the only one who feels this is bordering on insantiy? Would anyone here pick up a parchment from Ancient Egypt and immediately claim to know what the author meant? If so you'd be desperately wrong. It, like the Bible, has to be studied by rational people who seek to understand the time in which it was written. Do you have any idea how many respected scholarly journals, books, articles etc have been written about the Bible by SCIENTISTS and SCHOLARS who have been trying to understand what it is saying? Pick one up and give it a read and maybe, if you share, we'll all learn something.

Orangetom, I think I know where you are getting confused. No one said that the bible caused worldwide slavery. It developed independantly all over the world. What is being said is that those who followed biblical law practiced slavery according to the bible.

Now my question is of God's own morality (if he exists). Would a moral God say that it is fair to beat your slave to death, as long as he doesn't die in the first two days? Would a moral God say that it is okay to sell your daugher into slavery?