British Troops Videoed Beating Iraqi Teens

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by stumason
By removing or changing parts of the video, they can make it appear worse than it is and take the situation completley out of context.

In other words according to what you are saying, if they have in fact edited the tape, they are making portions of it to look as something other then what it was, which in essence means they are faking portions of it. Or am I missing something here?

Thats what the media is for? No?

Originally posted by stumason
It was a riot. As stated above, I would expect the same treatment off the Metropolitan Police if I did this in London. In fact, in the UK, tear gas, rubber bullets, riot police with batons, police on horses and water cannon would have been deployed.

I agree with you there and think it would have been handled the very same here. The only point I was trying to make is that any time you change the context you are in fact faking it or perhaps a better phrase to use in this case is putting your spin on it to make it look other then what it was.

Frankly I would like to view the original so I can truly judge what took place and I would tend to think you feel the same. Other then that we agree on all points

Originally posted by shots
I agree with you there and think it would have been handled the very same here. The only point I was trying to make is that any time you change the context you are in fact faking it or perhaps a better phrase to use in this case is putting your spin on it to make it look other then what it was.

Frankly I would like to view the original so I can truly judge what took place and I would tend to think you feel the same. Other then that we agree on all points

To be honest I think we agree totally, it's just at 0300 in the morning it's a little hard to articulate

Faked as in the event did not happen? Nope....

Spun into something else for political gain? Definately.

I've spent enough time in riots with the R. Irish, both in N. Ireland and in Iraq to speak frankly about this situation. It is quite uncommon in my experience for a group of prisoners to get a kicking like this. These blokes may have deserved the filling in that they got, but that doesn't give the soldiers the right to dish it out. OK so they were getting bricked and had a few blast-bombs thrown at them. Big deal. That is what they are paid for. This is par for the course in a riot.

Back in the bad old days in Belfast/Londonderry, there were a few kickings given out, but the army soon realised that this did more harm than good (public image, law suits etc.). Just about every soldier in the army at the time was exposed to riots, and learned how to deal with them. Due to the peace process in Ulster, there is not the same exposure to public order situations that there was, and the soldiers do not have enough leaders that are experienced at controlling troops in these situations.

The soldiers need to be found and charged, and the corporal who filmed this needs to be sorted out. The poor publicity that this sad situation brings to a usually professional army is very regretable. We need to come down hard on anyone who brings this sort of disrepute to the most professional body of armed men in the world.

PaddyInf,
I Agree with You!

These so-called Soldiers are PAYED for this kind of Situatuations, they are Payed to be Under Attack, for they are still Foreign Soldiers in somebody Elsese Homeland, so they have to EXPECT to be Under attack any moment, even by Children. And their Reaction had nothing at all to do with a Professional Soldier, but alot to do with a Mercenary, who is Bored to death and just waiting to kick some #. Frankly I found the Video Sickening, and all of the People here that say, "They Deserved it!", would probably do the same to these Kids.

It kind of reminded me of Israeli Soldiers and Palestininan kids, throwing stones - only, that the IAF usually Fire back with small arms fire, or with tanks. We all seen that. And then they say, that they were DEFENDING themselves - you can not be Defending yourself, when you are an Occupying Army! That is just not Logical.

Originally posted by pieman
devilwasp, you mean to tell me the british army never sanctioned illegal act's in northern ireland

You mean the actions, 2 DECADES AGO?

which bloody sunday do you want me to discuss. instatutional heavy handedness is a trademark of british clonial oppression, ever hear of ghandi, what do you think was his problem?

Bloody sunday! Ha, how long was that ago? Several decades ago? You want to bring up the boer war as well? Mabye the battle of falkirk as well?

It's a stupid disgrace and utterly counter-productive IMO.

I only hope those involved are identified and get the book thrown at them; whatever the provocation they might claim.

The fact is that they have just (at worst) endangered the lives of or (at best) made life a lot harder for their fellow service personnel (in fact probably for every British and 'western' person, for that matter) out there.

Idiots.

[edit on 13-2-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Skynews just released a story stating that one arrest has been made, however they have not announced who the individual is or what role if any he played in the event.

Arrest made

Isn't the civilized world grand, unlike al queda we make arrests where they give out medals for beheading and beating people.

[edit on 2/13/2006 by shots]

What I see here is some kids picking on people bigger than them and getting burned because of it. Should the soldiers have beaten them? Probably not (but I think maybe they were resisting arrest?), but they got what was coming to them.

Compare: If you threw stones at a gang of bikers what do you expect to happen?

The day we begin justifying the brutal beating of subdued prisoners by comparing it to beheading them, is the day we have lost what we hoped to preserve by fighting at all. The goal, we were told, was the preservation of our societies; not survival at any and all costs. I'm so saddened when I see people saying that this is war and that it must be won regardless of the means. Dressing ourselves in uniforms, defining ourselves as an army, being sanctioned by national governments, and stopping a few steps short of the cutthroat tactics used by our enemies, doesn't make it any more just or right to do what this video depicts (if indeed it's genuine).

That said, nothing can justify the actions of the terrorists, either. If they use our actions as justification for theirs, and we use their actions as justification for our own, this will never end. There is no way to "win" a conflict fueled by ideology, which employs the most brutal tactics at each side's disposal, and that mutually reinforces both sides' positions while perpetually spawning more combatants with each act of destruction on either side.

Defeating an enemy by becoming him ensures his survival in you.

They are lucky the British only gave them a kicking I've no doubt in the same circumstances Americans would have shot them.

Maybe they will learn their lesson before dieing maybe not.

All in all i don't see this as a massive deal the medias just twisting it to look worse than it is it could have been a far more serious situation.


[edit on 13-2-2006 by Teknikal]

If I went down the local city centre and started throwing bricks at the local constabulary, I'd get a pasting and rightly so.

I suppose the only difference here is that the culprits were given a hiding away from prying eyes. Should have done it in front of the crowd if you ask me. Even better, smack them with a brick as their running off. See how they like get crap thrown at them, eh?

I realize this was the British army, but as they are a part of the same coalition, I believe they should all be held to the same standard of prisoner treatment the US upheld for many years.

You treat your prisoners of war fairly and kindly. So the kids threw rocks and possibly grenades at the soldiers. This is a war. In past wars, the enemy soldiers were doing everything they could to kill our soldiers, but when we took prisoners, we were supposed to treat them fairly. The same should still apply now. If the soldiers had simply detained the kids and they were put in a cell for two days, but been as friendly to them as possible, perhaps there would've been a changed outlook on the soldiers. But now they're going to come back with guns and probably kill some soldiers to get revenge for their beating.

Logan if I try to kill you, would you treat me with respect?
If I try to kill everyone in your family then that means as soon as I fail you must treat me like I done nothing wrong.

If I threw stones at my local constabulary, I'd be beaten badly, and the state would send me to jail for a while. If an occupying army invaded my neighborhood, I would do more than throw stones, and probably be beaten or shot for it. But the state would call me a hero. Everyone is talking about this like kids throwing rocks at police. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!! These kids were throwing objects at the enemy.

It's known that the police/army/"the man" beat people up. It angers me when people take it being OK. I have yet to see any evidence that the children being beaten actually threw the object(s) in question. I didn't see it in the video. We only have their words on it, and at this point their testimony means nothing to me because they're probably covering their @$$.

As having experience with riot police and their tactics, it s commonplace to take random protestors and beat them mercilessly (in the USA anyway). It puts a little fear in the rest of the protestors. The trade off is that when they get caught red handed, they should be punished accordingly. This is rare however (in the USA anyway) and that is the biggest shame.

[edit on 13-2-2006 by Rasobasi420]

These people are soldiers. They are the weapons of a government. That means they must be disciplined enough to separate their personal emotions from their actions and not just be rampaging on their own and issuing punishments. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the kids should have neccessarily been throwing things at them. But I can also understand their point of view.

Let me turn it around the same way you did. I am making assumptions that may or may not have been the case with these kids, but: If you were an Iraqi kid whose mother or father or brother or friend or whatever were killed by Coalition soldiers, either accidentally or intentionally, wouldn't you be furious and want revenge? So then is it okay for them to try and kill or injure some soldiers for revenge? I suspect your answer will be that it is not. So then how is okay for the soldiers to beat the kids as revenge for attacking them? That's not okay either. They have the right to stop them from attacking them. Once they have stopped the attack and detained the individuals involved, all violence should end.

I realize it's easy to say things that may change when you are personally in a situation, but revenge is usually not the best option and I prefer to always attempt to take the higher ground. Better to temporarily detain them and let someone not directly involved in the situation decide what to do.

To be honest, if this was filmed in 2004, it would have been after the time the rioting killed 6 RMP's by a crowd of roughly the same number.
Royal Military Police
Among other angry mobs that killed that is..

Angry Mob 1
Angry Mob 2

I am sure these are not the only incidents where death by mobs in Iraq had occured.. it is understandable if the soldiers may have acted the way they did.


If you also get an opportunity, please watch this video as it shows the reaction of some soldiers driver in a convoy. (*WARNING* - explicit language content.)

Originally posted by LoganCale
These people are soldiers. They are the weapons of a government. That means they must be disciplined enough to separate their personal emotions from their actions and not just be rampaging on their own and issuing punishments. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the kids should have neccessarily been throwing things at them. But I can also understand their point of view.

You cant seperate emotions, emotions define us, emotions guide us.

Let me turn it around the same way you did. I am making assumptions that may or may not have been the case with these kids, but: If you were an Iraqi kid whose mother or father or brother or friend or whatever were killed by Coalition soldiers, either accidentally or intentionally, wouldn't you be furious and want revenge? So then is it okay for them to try and kill or injure some soldiers for revenge? I suspect your answer will be that it is not. So then how is okay for the soldiers to beat the kids as revenge for attacking them? That's not okay either. They have the right to stop them from attacking them. Once they have stopped the attack and detained the individuals involved, all violence should end.

Is it easy to stop the rage once it takes you?
Could you stop yourself if someone belted your other half?

I realize it's easy to say things that may change when you are personally in a situation, but revenge is usually not the best option and I prefer to always attempt to take the higher ground. Better to temporarily detain them and let someone not directly involved in the situation decide what to do.

Someone who is not directly involved might just let them off, but heh if someone threw a hand grenade at you then you where told to keep him fed, make sure he had water and treat him fairly...wouldnt you be rather confused at the logic?

Originally posted by Klepto

I am sure these are not the only incidents where death by mobs in Iraq had occured.. it is understandable if the soldiers may have acted the way they did

They were already back safe behind their wall.

Beating those kids did nothing to protect their lives.

There is no comparing the situations like you imply.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Beating those kids did nothing to protect their lives.

Well considering what the kids did, they got off what they deserved. I also have no doubt they are now better off then had they done the same to some insurgents. At least the kids are now alive; that would not be the case if it were insurgents they attacked, they would have killed them.