9/11 Pentagon: The Mystery of the Moved Taxi

a reply to: RubyGray

Why don’t you want to talk about that gurney right at Rumsfeld’s feet?

a reply to: RubyGray

You

There are several witnesses who attested to the flyover, or made statements consistent with this, but you do not want to even consider them.

Then quote where they said the jet missed the pentagon and flew away?

Vs what?

Pentagon Attack & Flight 77 Evidence Summary & Links page 1 of 2

sites.google.com...

From the lists above, 136 people saw the plane approach the Pentagon, and
104 directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.

26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.

39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.

2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.

7 said it was a Boeing 757.

8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.

2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.

4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.

10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).

16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.

42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.

2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.

15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.

3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.

3 took photographs of the aftermath.

Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."

And of course,

0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.

0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.

CIT failed because there are no witnesses to a large passenger jet missing the pentagon to fly off. Vs “ 136 people saw the plane approach the Pentagon, and
104 directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.“

Backed by the damage at the pentagon, backed by the flight path damage, backed by radar, backed by the flight recorder data, backed by wreckage, backed by DNA identified remains, backed by released remains, backed issued death certificates, backed by families that lost members on flight 77.

a reply to: RubyGray

Ruby. What did at least 104 people witness crash into the pentagon? You have provided no credible explanation.

a reply to: neutronflux

Do quit cutting and pasting great reams of other people's work. Try thinking for yourself and posting your own words. That is what "debate" is.

Obviously, the murderers of the plane passengers had access to any DNA samples or effects.

The fox was in charge of the henhouse.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Ruby. What did at least 104 people witness crash into the pentagon? You have provided no credible explanation.

TRY READING THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD FOR ONCE!!!!

THEN POST ACCORDINGLY!!!

originally posted by: RubyGray
a reply to: neutronflux

Do quit cutting and pasting great reams of other people's work. Try thinking for yourself and posting your own words. That is what "debate" is.

Obviously, the murderers of the plane passengers had access to any DNA samples or effects.

The fox was in charge of the henhouse.

Don’t like I actually cite and source actual document accounts and statements?

Now. Do you understand why CIT became DOA? There is no way a jet on the witness flight path to the pentagon could physically maneuver to miss the pentagon.

Can you quote any pentagon witnesses that saw a jet nearly miss the pentagon and fly away.

There is no physical way to create the illusion a jet crashed into the pentagon and have it at the same time fly away. The closest you would come to would be the appearance a large jet bombing the pentagon and flying off.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Why don’t you want to talk about that gurney right at Rumsfeld’s feet?

Why would I want to talk about something that is not there?

Rumsfeld is holding a BACKBOARD.

He is just filling in time while his BODYGUARD is off locating Lloyde England (whom he does not know) from amongst the crowd, so that he can drive him to his cab on the bridge for a photo shoot with a pole which he is not supposed to know anything about.

a reply to: RubyGray

Why should I find you credible again?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Remember how talking in absolutes makes you less credible?

You

He claimed that they were "pushing patients on gurneys". Gurneys are wheeled trolleys, which were not used that morning.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Then you doubled down?

originally posted by: RubyGray
a reply to: neutronflux

EVERYTHING I claim is on the videos, IS THERE.

Just you keep on ignoring it.

Rumsfeld did not push any patients down the road on tourneys.
He only carried backboard across the lawn.
Doctors, nurses and paramedics pushed tourneys down the highway on tourneys.
Anyone who watches the videos, can see this.

Found this Ruby Gray flicker page with this picture?

www.flickr.com...@N02/




After you rant of “ Gurneys are wheeled trolleys, which were not used that morning.” And “ Doctors, nurses and paramedics pushed tourneys down the highway on tourneys.
Anyone who watches the videos, can see this.”

Yet on a flicker page of a Ruby Gray had a picture of Rumsfeld at the large hole in the pentagon, not on any highway with a gurney at his feet.

You are blatantly dishonest, full of crap, and shamefully intellectually dishonest.

You claimed I posted the north flight path witnesses are lying. Please quote that post.

You claimed I posted lies about you? Please quote that post?

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Why don’t you want to talk about that gurney right at Rumsfeld’s feet?

Why would I want to talk about something that is not there?

Rumsfeld is holding a BACKBOARD.

He is just filling in time while his BODYGUARD is off locating Lloyde England (whom he does not know) from amongst the crowd, so that he can drive him to his cab on the bridge for a photo shoot with a pole which he is not supposed to know anything about.

Right in front of Rumsfeld at his feet is a gurney. You claimed no gurneys were used that morning.

According to the official story, the plane did a u-turn around the Pentagon to drop lower? That clearly places the plane on northside least initially. Maybe the northside witnesses did see the plane in the sky, but missed the second approach from the other side? You still see the plane at 10,000 feet if not higher.

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: RubyGray
a reply to: neutronflux

Do quit cutting and pasting great reams of other people's work. Try thinking for yourself and posting your own words. That is what "debate" is.

Obviously, the murderers of the plane passengers had access to any DNA samples or effects.

The fox was in charge of the henhouse.

Don’t like I actually cite and source actual document accounts and statements?

Now. Do you understand why CIT became DOA? There is no way a jet on the witness flight path to the pentagon could physically maneuver to miss the pentagon.

Can you quote any pentagon witnesses that saw a jet nearly miss the pentagon and fly away.

There is no physical way to create the illusion a jet crashed into the pentagon and have it at the same time fly away. The closest you would come to would be the appearance a large jet bombing the pentagon and flying off.

Dream on.
All you are doing is CUTTING & PASTING, not "quoting and citing".
The rules state you are not supposed to do that.
You are required to make "substantial posts", that is, contribute something significant and ON-TOPIC, from your own original thoughts, opinions and research.

I could report you for posting those great chunks of other people's work but I will let you continue proving you have nothing substantial to say for yourself.

CIT were very active for at least 3 years after that bunkum thread you linked to.
Their entire websites, forums and video channels are still maintained.
Nothing has been removed, altered or deleted.
They are watching what is going on, but not getting involved.
That is their choice. They worked hard and have a right to their own lives and privacy.
Their work still stands as the MOST VALUABLE INVESTiGATIVE EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY RESEARCH on the Pentagon that we have.
What they did can never be done again due to the long interval of 18 years now, but that does not mean we should not still try to evaluate witness accounts and try to obtain more.
But I lament their errors where Lloyde England is concerned.

You wrote:
"There is no physical way to create the illusion a jet crashed into the pentagon and have it at the same time fly away. The closest you would come to would be the appearance a large jet bombing the pentagon and flying off."

Well that is EXACTLY what workers at the ANC (cemetery) said!
They were quoted by ANC worker ERIK DIEHLE in his official recorded interview, just a few days after 9/11.
Most of those official recordings were never made public.
I WONDER WHY!!??!!
HOW MANY MORE people reported this, only to have their testimony suppressed?
There is no way to be sure of the genuine number of people who witnessed anything that conflicts with the Official Story, because their testimonies were sequestered and suppressed by the FBI.

YOU WROTE :
"There is no way a jet on the witness flight path to the pentagon could physically maneuver to miss the pentagon."

That is obviously nonsense, as there is NOBODY WHO TESTIFIES THAT THEY SAW THE PLANE FLYING ACROSS THE BRIDGE.

Therefore, the "WITNESS FLIGHT PATH" = the NORTHSIDE FLIGHTPATH which is unanimously reported by eyewitnesses, as I have frequently shown you.

MANY of those witnesses stated that the plane flew right overhead or just in front of them, perpendicular to the west side of the pentagon, and they also stated that the plane was FIFTY TO EIGHTY FEET ABOVE GROUND as it crossed the highway.

In fact, witness Aziz ElHallou who was a pilot, and had a piece of the plane, stated that the plane was up to 75 YARDS above the highway. 3 times HIGHER than the Pentagon.

So there was no "manoeuvring" to be done. All the plane had to do was continue flying at that altitude, or a few feet higher, and it would automatically clear the 73 foot building.

Robert Turcios stated that the plane "LIFTED UP A LITTLE BIT TO CLEAR THE EXIT SIGN".

Darius Prather stated that when the plane reached the highway, it "STARTED TO ANGLE UP".

Many witnesses stated that they thought the plane's wing hit the lawn, and/or that the plane then "BOUNCED UP".

Michael Kelly, Don Scott and Kat Gaines all saw a very low-flying jet on the EAST side of the Pentagon, and THEN heard the explosion and saw the smoke plume.

Roosevelt Roberts heard the explosion and then ran out to the parking lot, where he saw a jet flying low, AWAY from the Pentagon, at the level of the lightpoles in South Parking.

Roberts thought he had seen a "second jet" but the others all believed that the plane they saw EAST OF THE PENTAGON had somehow caused the explosion. Don't make no sense, but that is what they claimed.

Many witnesses described a "DELAY" between the plane "just disappearing" or "melting" or "vanishing" or being "consumed", and the explosion. It seems the plane OVERFLEW the building, and the explosion happened a second or two later, which explains the testimonies of Kelly, Gaines and Scott.

The man In the parking lot of the Double Tree hotel CCTV footage was walking into the entrance when he heard the explosion and turned to look at the smoke rising from the Pentagon. He continued walking into the forecourt, then he stood looking up into the sky, AWAY FROM the Pentagon, and towards Reagan National Airport. Why was he looking up there, and not watching the spectacle at the Pentagon?

For those prepared to STUDY THE EVIDENCE, and THINK FOR THEMSELVES, and DRAW MAPS OF THE FLIGHTPATH SEEN BY EYEWITNESSES, and CALCULATE ANGLES & ALTITUDE, it is apparent that something very different from the official story, is what really happened.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport
According to the official story, the plane did a u-turn around the Pentagon to drop lower? That clearly places the plane on northside least initially. Maybe the northside witnesses did see the plane in the sky, but missed the second approach from the other side? You still see the plane at 10,000 feet if not higher.

I think you may be confusing the appearance of the C-130 with the jet.

The official story says the 757 did a huge 270 degree descending loop, some miles southwest of the Pentagon.

But eyewitness testimony states that the plane flew east across the river, passed the White House etc, then crossed the river again south of the Pentagon, to approach from over the Army Navy Country Club, then turning northeast to fly over the Navy Annex and between the Citgo gas station and Arlington National Cemetery.

The cargo plane flew in from the northwest, came down closer to the Pentagon, then veered off north again, at a much higher altitude than the jet which allegedly hit the Pentagon.

The C-130 appeared about 3 minutes after the impact, according to the video taken from the I-395 by Anthony Tribby which shows it appear, descend, turn and fly away; and the amateur video shot from south of the overhead sign on the bridge, where the Camera Guy and his son comment on it, and Joel Sucherman is filmed looking up in the sky towards it, as he testified.

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Why don’t you want to talk about that gurney right at Rumsfeld’s feet?

Why would I want to talk about something that is not there?

Rumsfeld is holding a BACKBOARD.

He is just filling in time while his BODYGUARD is off locating Lloyde England (whom he does not know) from amongst the crowd, so that he can drive him to his cab on the bridge for a photo shoot with a pole which he is not supposed to know anything about.

Right in front of Rumsfeld at his feet is a gurney. You claimed no gurneys were used that morning.

I did not say that. Gurneys were obviously used by the ambulances.
There are photos or gurneys being pushed along the Columbia Pike exit road.
Victims were transported from the building across the lawn on BACKBOARDS which were laid on the ground at Triage sites. Then they were transferred onto gurneys and into the ambulances.

There was a GUARDRAIL between the lawn and ambulances parked on the road, which was not negotiable for gurneys.

There is something white on the ground. What identifying features convince you this is a gurney?

What makes you think this was not a piece of the plane debris?

Rumsfeld's bodyguard Aubrey Davis claimed that his boss "pushed a gurney" across the lawn, and that they then went straight back into the Pentagon.
He claimed that they "were only gone for 15 minutes, tops". Ref. ANDREW COCKBURN, "RUMSFELD : AN AMERICAN DISASTER", chapter 1.

But this was lies.

There is multiple video footage of Rumsfeld CARRYING two patients on BACKBOARDS, after which there is video and photo evidence of him standing beside the Pentagon, holding an orange BACKBOARD, for quite a few minutes, while Aubrey Davis was performing his Lloyde England-retrieval and babysitting role on the bridge, which was of course captured on Jason Ingersoll's time-stamped photos.

As soon as Davis had finished with Lloyde England and the taxi, he collected Rumsfeld, and there is that famous photo of them walking back into the Pentagon, satisfied grin on Rumsfeld's face against the backdrop of horror and suffering.

There is evidence from Pentagon staff of the time that Rumsfeld finally appeared to do his duty.

So no, Rumsfeld did NOT "push" any "gurney" across the lawn.

You really should study the available photos and videos much more carefully.

a reply to: RubyGray

Ruby. It’s not good to tell fibs.

originally posted by: RubyGray
a reply to: Pilgrum



He claimed that they were "pushing patients on gurneys". Gurneys are wheeled trolleys, which were not used that morning.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You clearly stated “ Gurneys are wheeled trolleys, which were not used that morning.”

Shame on you telling fibs Ruby. Bad Ruby.

What else are you willing to post blatant falsehoods about.

How about you claiming I posted the north flight path witnesses were lying? Can you quote that post.

Or please quote where I falsely called you out for telling fibs?

a reply to: RubyGray

Now. Do you realize that CIT is a laughing stock because there is no evidence the jet seen descending into the pentagon flew away from the pentagon. That it would be physically impossible for the jet to maneuver from hitting the pentagon from its witnessed flight path. There are zero witnesses giving an account of a large passenger jet buzzing the pentagon and flying off. There are only accounts of the jet hitting the pentagon.

originally posted by: RubyGray

Save your smug insults for yourself.

It wasn't an insult it's an observation. You are really bad at this.

Seriously bad.

You have not bothered to study the various testimonies as to her location.

Don't need to. I've got photos. I don't need to twist anybody's words.

This is how you do it:

This is Penny Elgas:



This is a Dodge Neon.

Penny Elgas:
My car tires were okay, but my little Dodge Neon was shaking because I never pushed it that fast before.

This is Penny standing beside the open door of her Dodge Neon on Sept. 11 2001.



That enlargement came from this photo:

Examination of the photo tells us that Penny's car was located here, and the photo was taken from there.



Close up of the location of Penny's car.



That location puts her in the perfect position to pick up this piece of AA77 's starboard wing tip:



After it hit this pole:



(Could you please point out the rust to us. All I see is missing paint and friction polished metal)

Here's another photo of ruby and the roof her Neon for good measure. She seems to be talking to an upset young lady.




So the view in this image is about 20' back from the actual position of Penny's car. It's was the closest I could get with google street view. But the Deg's. marked are from the actual position of her car.




Oh ya....

Yvette was some where inside the red circle when when AA77 hit:



This light pole fell sideways:



This is a Navy Command Center ID



This is a piece of aircraft debris is from a photo taken inside the Pentagon.



This trailer never moved on 911



This is AA77 real flightpath






And Lloyd England was on the Columbia Pike overpass when AA77 flew over and put Rumsfeld's pole through his windshield.

But never the less, You are still the smartest detective in Woop Woop. And that's a complement.

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: Hulseyreport
According to the official story, the plane did a u-turn around the Pentagon to drop lower? That clearly places the plane on northside least initially. Maybe the northside witnesses did see the plane in the sky, but missed the second approach from the other side? You still see the plane at 10,000 feet if not higher.

I think you may be confusing the appearance of the C-130 with the jet.

The official story says the 757 did a huge 270 degree descending loop, some miles southwest of the Pentagon.

But eyewitness testimony states that the plane flew east across the river, passed the White House etc, then crossed the river again south of the Pentagon, to approach from over the Army Navy Country Club, then turning northeast to fly over the Navy Annex and between the Citgo gas station and Arlington National Cemetery.

The cargo plane flew in from the northwest, came down closer to the Pentagon, then veered off north again, at a much higher altitude than the jet which allegedly hit the Pentagon.

The C-130 appeared about 3 minutes after the impact, according to the video taken from the I-395 by Anthony Tribby which shows it appear, descend, turn and fly away; and the amateur video shot from south of the overhead sign on the bridge, where the Camera Guy and his son comment on it, and Joel Sucherman is filmed looking up in the sky towards it, as he testified.

Report I read, the plane was coming in fast southeast of the White House. The C-130 had not taken off yet. What direction is this to the Navy Annex?

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

Why don’t you want to talk about that gurney right at Rumsfeld’s feet?

Why would I want to talk about something that is not there?

Rumsfeld is holding a BACKBOARD.

He is just filling in time while his BODYGUARD is off locating Lloyde England (whom he does not know) from amongst the crowd, so that he can drive him to his cab on the bridge for a photo shoot with a pole which he is not supposed to know anything about.

Right in front of Rumsfeld at his feet is a gurney. You claimed no gurneys were used that morning.

I did not say that. Gurneys were obviously used by the ambulances.
There are photos or gurneys being pushed along the Columbia Pike exit road.
Victims were transported from the building across the lawn on BACKBOARDS which were laid on the ground at Triage sites. Then they were transferred onto gurneys and into the ambulances.

There was a GUARDRAIL between the lawn and ambulances parked on the road, which was not negotiable for gurneys.

There is something white on the ground. What identifying features convince you this is a gurney?

What makes you think this was not a piece of the plane debris?

Rumsfeld's bodyguard Aubrey Davis claimed that his boss "pushed a gurney" across the lawn, and that they then went straight back into the Pentagon.
He claimed that they "were only gone for 15 minutes, tops". Ref. ANDREW COCKBURN, "RUMSFELD : AN AMERICAN DISASTER", chapter 1.

But this was lies.

There is multiple video footage of Rumsfeld CARRYING two patients on BACKBOARDS, after which there is video and photo evidence of him standing beside the Pentagon, holding an orange BACKBOARD, for quite a few minutes, while Aubrey Davis was performing his Lloyde England-retrieval and babysitting role on the bridge, which was of course captured on Jason Ingersoll's time-stamped photos.

As soon as Davis had finished with Lloyde England and the taxi, he collected Rumsfeld, and there is that famous photo of them walking back into the Pentagon, satisfied grin on Rumsfeld's face against the backdrop of horror and suffering.

There is evidence from Pentagon staff of the time that Rumsfeld finally appeared to do his duty.

So no, Rumsfeld did NOT "push" any "gurney" across the lawn.

You really should study the available photos and videos much more carefully.

Ruby even northside witnesses claim the plane was very low to the ground to be seen. The only dispute is which side of the navy annex was the plane at- yes/no None of them claim the plane was high up in the air and was trying to avoid the Pentagon. There seems to be one plane and people's stories don't seem to agree with each other about the direction But everything else seems to add up that plane came in low and was heading towards the Pentagon.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: RubyGray

At least 14 witnesses attest to a large jet knocking over light poles / utility poles. With the jet being witnessed low enough to the ground to clip trees.

If the jet approached from the north, there should be a north flight path of damage. But there is no evidence of such a second path of damage.

What a crock.
If the plane flew on the northside flightpath -
which it did -
and since there is no trail of damage,
This is proof that the plane flew over the Pentagon.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

originally posted by: RubyGray

originally posted by: Hulseyreport
According to the official story, the plane did a u-turn around the Pentagon to drop lower? That clearly places the plane on northside least initially. Maybe the northside witnesses did see the plane in the sky, but missed the second approach from the other side? You still see the plane at 10,000 feet if not higher.

I think you may be confusing the appearance of the C-130 with the jet.

The official story says the 757 did a huge 270 degree descending loop, some miles southwest of the Pentagon.

But eyewitness testimony states that the plane flew east across the river, passed the White House etc, then crossed the river again south of the Pentagon, to approach from over the Army Navy Country Club, then turning northeast to fly over the Navy Annex and between the Citgo gas station and Arlington National Cemetery.

The cargo plane flew in from the northwest, came down closer to the Pentagon, then veered off north again, at a much higher altitude than the jet which allegedly hit the Pentagon.

The C-130 appeared about 3 minutes after the impact, according to the video taken from the I-395 by Anthony Tribby which shows it appear, descend, turn and fly away; and the amateur video shot from south of the overhead sign on the bridge, where the Camera Guy and his son comment on it, and Joel Sucherman is filmed looking up in the sky towards it, as he testified.

Report I read, the plane was coming in fast southeast of the White House. The C-130 had not taken off yet. What direction is this to the Navy Annex?

Could you tell me which report this is that you read?
The White House is way northeast of the Navy Annex and the Pentagon, across the Potomac River.