AboveTopSecret.com is a Government COINTELPRO Disinformation Operation

Teaching By Example

reply to post by Unferth

You keep posting links to a blog written by a banned member whose own words explain why he was banned, and offer that as some sort of indictment of ATS.

No, we do not allow free advertising, whether for blogs or for "free" books (see Term 19) and you might want to check out 15d while you're at it), ban spammers for it all the time, the ex-member in question makes it clear by his own admission what the problem was and even points out he re-registered to do the same thing again.

We don't apologize for that, nor does that mean ATS is run by Freemasons. Then you're back with the Jews again, who are "blatantly racist".

I hope you won't mind my asking, but were you in the habit of posting the same sorts of things on the board run by "blatantly racist" Jewish admins that you've been posting here?

Just asking.

reply to post by Majic


I used to post a lot more things about politics and Israel. But any sort of the minutest form of criticism of them is deemed antisemitic. That means I can't even have a discussion about race without it being racist. Nobody knows what race really means. Scientists, Anthropologists and Philosophers all have different concepts.

You are telling me that by explaining the esoteric, new age concept written by Lee Caroll (Kryon) makes me a racist?


Obviously, you are the racist here. Furthermore, criticism of Zionism and Israel is a common practice (or conspiracy) among the conspiracy theory community. Once again by your indignant attitude you have proven you have NO links to this community.

You are simply running this site as some social experiment? (Pss...you want to talk about conspiracies? Come here...oh wait ...you can't talk about that...)

Originally posted by Unferth
Nobody knows what race really means. Scientists, Anthropologists and Philosophers all have different concepts.

I've seen racism apologists say that, or something very close, quite a bit.

Furthermore, criticism of Zionism and Israel is a common practice (or conspiracy) among the conspiracy theory community.

And, the only people I've seen complaining about not being able to examine the problems with Zionism and the Israeli government are those who cannot do so without polluting the discussion with racist crap about the Jews.

There are many threads on ATS that are critical of Zionism and the Israeli government. But perhaps not as many as there should be because of the inability of many to go there without racism.

Racing Stripes

Originally posted by Unferth

Obviously, you are the racist here.

Project much?

I'm trying to keep a straight face, but you're not making it easy.

If you see evil everywhere you turn, you're standing in the wrong place.

While I do not believe that ATS is government funded or a government supervised project I do know that it is the largest conspiracy website in the world and profits because that is the case. Because of this, the activities, thoughts and trends that happen within ATS are without a doubt monitored by agencies like the DHS. There really isn't much ATS administration can do about this, it is after all a user based content medium.

A site like ATS will be laden with ex members with a grudge, people that feel slighted because they do not understand the need to keep balance of reasonable conspiracy hand in hand with publicly acceptable content that keeps the line unblurred between ATS and the likes of other, less credible and under moderated sites. I will name no name but we all know who I'm talking about and lets be honest...... No self respecting person can take those sites seriously when 80 percent of the content is pure fantasy and is left largely unchecked no matter how slanderous the content.

It's not all praise I have for ATS. I have recently had my own tribulations regarding Sandy Hook and the stance ATS has taken towards that event but at the end of the day I understand that it is their sandbox and I am not in the position that they are in when trying to moderate such a large and diverse community so I try to take a step back and understand where they are coming from and that is an important step before you let anger take hold or rage quit the site. Much like the world around us, ATS is complicated, it is imperfect but it provides a venue for thoughts and ideas and allows you to reach hundreds of thousands of people when you present well thought out and responsible threads.

Take what you hear from ex members, defectors or those who run (or try too) competition web sites with an extra large grain of salt. There are two sides to every story.

On The Hook

reply to post by Helious

It's not really on-topic, except in a tangential way (i.e., "ATS censorship"), I should probably keep my big mouth shut given all the trouble we've had, and I must emphasize I'm speaking only from my personal perspective here and not "officially" (this is official).

But you mentioned Sandy Hook, I really feel strongly about the dilemma, respect that you do too and want to share my thoughts about it in the hope that even if you disagree, you might at least understand.

It's an issue that has been so intense and so inflammatory that just my saying something about it risks having this thread get derailed by a bunch of angry Sandy Hook posts. If that happens, I will have to ask that we drop the subject and stick to the original topic, but I'm hoping it won't, because I really want people to understand what's going on.

First off, despite insinuations to the contrary, there is no prohibition against discussing Sandy Hook or theorizing about it on ATS. Anyone can search ATS for "Sandy Hook" and see for themselves. I've seen some members suggest otherwise, and the facts are solidly against them.

There is, however, a prohibition against using ATS to harass, abuse or harm people, it's been that way as long as ATS has existed, didn't just start a few months ago, and that's where the problems with Sandy Hook have arisen.

Members were posting personal information such as addresses and phone numbers, making patently defamatory and libelous statements about people who could very well not only sue ATS (and win, if we let them stand), but potentially subpoena member information, sue members and open up all sorts of holy hell nobody here needs.

Those posts were also painting ATS in a light so hateful and disgusting that we probably would have lost a large portion of our staff on moral grounds if we didn't do something about it. There were some very passionate discussions in the staff forums about it, and though we as ATSers will always disagree about something or another, a very clear consensus emerged about co-opting our community to attack crime victims.

We could not tolerate it.

Yes, it was that bad, and I'll wager you didn't see most of what we removed from the forums. Rest assured, the staff saw all of it. I'd never seen anything like it in eight years of membership and I never want to see anything like it again. Ever.

Some members took it upon themselves to protest the "censorship" of posts that patently violated the terms & conditions, got banned for repeatedly refusing to honor them despite repeated warnings, and the "Sandy Hook Controversy" was born.

To date, we still see a lot of fallout over it, still see members complain about it, and while I can very much appreciate that no one wants to feel muzzled about something as big and conspiracy-prone as Sandy Hook, I think the majority of the furor over it is based on misunderstanding.

Can ATSers discuss the many potential conspiracies surrounding Sandy Hook and related shootings? Absolutely.

Can ATSers use our forums to attack, defame and libel victims of these crimes? Absolutely not.

That's where the line is drawn. I know that won't please everyone and won't hold it against you if you or anyone else disagrees, but hope that, if nothing else, our critics can appreciate what motivates us in cases like these.

reply to post by Majic


I appreciate the post, it does help to clear up some of the questions I had and probably some that other members had as well. I like most members here am reasonably intelligent and I can appreciate the situation the site as a whole and staff members found themselves in.

With that said, I think the problem was an issue of consistency. Perhaps some feel the events at Sandy Hook were more tragic or heinous than that of 9/11 because children were involved but that would be a misguided assumption as many children died in 9/11 as well and we have here on ATS a specific forum dedicated to the twin towers even.

I think you can understand why some would question why one event is worthy of discussion and another is not and may wonder who decides that and why. It's a valid viewpoint and one until this point I haven't seen explained or even touched upon in any other staff correspondence other than warnings and advisories.

I can say that I completely agree that personal witch hunts can not be tolerated and puts not only the site at risk but also members. Protecting all of our best interests in this regard is commendable and I think anyone would be hard pressed to not understand this facet of the stance that was taken on the subject. With that said, sometimes people involved with these types of events put themselves out in the public spotlight to such a large degree that public speculation on a personal basis becomes absolutely necessary when discussing the issue.

Gene Rosen has proved the above statement to be true, because of his multiple interviews on national television, his statements made to main stream and alternate media and his need to speak at every possible occasion, I feel that he has given up the right to have an expectation of privacy when it comes to public opinion, outspoken or otherwise.

While I would never condone personal harassment, or think that contacting or badgering Mr. Rosen would be acceptable, I do think that his actions and decisions has warranted public discussion about his role in the events and I don't think that anyone, private citizen or public official has grounds to request people don't discuss their involvement in events when they have catapulted their presence onto the national stage.

On a lighter side

how much does a COINTEL agent get paid

the same as a EA shrill $.16..

now back to your discussion

Originally posted by Unferth
reply to post by Majic

 

I used to post a lot more things about politics and Israel. But any sort of the minutest form of criticism of them is deemed antisemitic. That means I can't even have a discussion about race without it being racist. Nobody knows what race really means. Scientists, Anthropologists and Philosophers all have different concepts.

You are telling me that by explaining the esoteric, new age concept written by Lee Caroll (Kryon) makes me a racist?


Obviously, you are the racist here. Furthermore, criticism of Zionism and Israel is a common practice (or conspiracy) among the conspiracy theory community. Once again by your indignant attitude you have proven you have NO links to this community.

You are simply running this site as some social experiment? (Pss...you want to talk about conspiracies? Come here...oh wait ...you can't talk about that...)

edit on 20-4-2013 by Unferth because: (no reason given)

In my opinion, which I'm sure many would agree with due to various news reports within the past two years, the internet is indeed being used as a social gauge by numerous groups. Some of which may be known or unknown to the inner most circles of ATS. Of course ATS is cointel. It's a public website who's information is there for the use and abuse of anyone who has an agenda (whatever that agenda might be).
Make no mistake, folks. ATS is most certainly one chess board block of WWIII prior to the show beginning for the masses, which live in the 4Dimensional environment. Right now, 4D movies (and I believe they're also called 4HD) are being shown starting within the month in theaters of major overseas cities such as those in South Korea. Why are they getting these movies before the American or British theaters? Are these countries being used as test groups for a particular type of distraction and/or programming? It should be interesting to see how these 4Dimensional movies are going to affect people. Will they suffer from dizziness and deep emotions (ex. suicidal, home sick, etc.) like we saw with Avatar?
Just the word 'avatar' brings me back to the 3D world of ATS and other social media/blogging websites and forums.
Anyways, we are, whether you can wrap your head around it or not, playing within the 3D environment of the very beginnings of WWIII.
We experience the 3D environment when we are on here debating our ideas, stands, and beliefs.
If you can't see that there're special interest groups taking score of what's spoken about and how,
your beak is larger than your brain and is obstructing your view of what's to come.
I wouldn't doubt that there's at least five people in the world right now thinking, "Yep, the scales are tilting in our favor", so it's time now to campaign for this or rally for that.
From our threads and detailed discussions, they can determine what will most likely start people rioting.

The 3D world (electronics) now aids in creating our 4D experience (real life).
Because of those (providers of TV and internet) who want to create and control everything (including us), we're also along for the ride assisting in deciding what will happen next. Whether we like it or not.

So, now that we know the difference between cointel groups and their tools, we can understand how ATS is a useful tool to various agenda oriented groups on a global scale. 3D ripple effects are then capable of morphing into events that may or may not be caused by an agenda driven group, a lone nutcase, or politically motivated terrorists (foreign and/or domestic).

Welcome to the 3D world of the first phase of WWIII known as the Verbal Battlefield.
Be well and tread carefully.
(Oh, and don't forget how to step outside into the 4D environment for some of that good, fresh air fairly often.

One more thing, the 3D and 4D worlds cycle within each other. Feeding off each other. Ebbing and flowing. As an event happens in the 4D world, then is discussed within the 3D world, it's not long before the 4D world is affected by what's been discussed.
Then, the really weird stuff happens when the professional creators of 3D environments show us things that are going to happen within the 4D environment. The movie "Knowing" and its scene depicting the BP disaster is a great example of this. I don't think I need to remind ATSers about Lil' Wayne's ominous video showing the skeletons sitting in the movie theater or the recent Family Guy episode roughly illustrating the Boston Bombing?
Are all of these (and more) instances simply coincidences?

Whatever is going on involves more than just cointelpro watching and meddling. It's much bigger and more complex than just this.

But that's just my two cents.

The "Joe The Plumber" Principle

reply to post by Helious

Alas, if only everyone were so well-spoken and reasonable. Again, just speaking from my own perspective, I think the big difference between 9/11 and Sandy Hook is one of scale.

With 9/11, tens of thousands of people were directly involved, the events themselves occurred in several different places and the sheer magnitude of it all influenced the nature and focus of discussion about it on ATS. While individual names did emerge, there was more of a general emphasis on non-personal questions like what may have caused the WTC towers to collapse, whether UA Flight 93 was shot down, whether the Pentagon was struck by a plane or a missile, and so on, and seemingly endless volumes of source information to comb through and assess.

Classic conspiracy theory fare, fertile ground for thousands of threads and, by and large, not problematic from a discussion standpoint.

With Sandy Hook, the number of people involved is much fewer, the nature of the crime, though smaller in scale, potentially even more piercing because of its heartbreakingly cruel focus, and with much less information from official sources for members to examine and corroborate. The relative absence of information on the crime is, in fact, one of the aspects of the case that could be considered suspicious in itself.

Your point about Gene Rosen is a very good one, and I agree with you. Perhaps we can call it the "Joe the Plumber" Principle in recognition of his own historic step from obscurity into the public spotlight via a chance encounter with President Obama.

While I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV,* I think there's a matter of common sense that when one chooses to engage in a public political campaign of some kind, particularly if it is based on personal experiences, one forgoes any reasonable expectation of privacy. One does not make TV appearances and grant interviews if one wants to be left alone.

Thus if someone like Mr. Rosen wants to make political hay out of Sandy Hook, I think it would be absurd to expect immunity from criticism or scrutiny in the process. And indeed, if we search ATS for his name, there's no shortage of discussion about him.

It occurs to me that, with the passage of time, a lot of this has already become less sensitive, and where emotions once ran raw, some of the more "speculative" theories won't meet quite so much resistance. I imagine that's a process which will occur naturally, and rightly so.

If I'm missing something, by all means set me straight, but I'm not seeing anything we actually disagree on. That's profoundly ironic, all things considered.

I hope you will join me in considering it a very encouraging sign.





* Nor do I represent the business or legal concerns of The Above Network, LLC. I'm a volunteer, not an employee, so despite my being entrusted with administrative controls for the board software and various responsibilities for supporting the membership and staff, I'm not in a position to speak for ATS. Only the owners may do so, and I want to make sure no one misunderstands that when I comment.

reply to post by Majic


You are absolutely correct in saying that the scope of the two events has played a big role in how the topics have been discussed. With 9/11 much of the conversation and conjecture was for the most part, non descript. While the subject matter does not cease to be important or emotional, it is easier to debate without attacking any one person or group of people. This is something that is amplified when discussion is taking place so soon after an event takes place and emotion runs high.

I think that there are very good arguments on the subject from both sides. I think that families setting up donation funds the same day or the day after and that families that came on national television the same week and lobbied for gun control set themselves up for public ridicule despite the tragedies they faced. I have five children and I couldn't imagine what losing any one of them would be like, I would have to think the pain would be mentally and most probably physically unbearable. I couldn't understand how you could do those things as a parent, most likely, many others couldn't either so soon after something that traumatic.

This situation was further fueled by the very distasteful display that the main stream media initiated to have the Sandy Hook children perform at the Super Bowl, Basket Ball games and live television events. I have to stress that all of these reasons are a big part on why specific people were targeted for ridicule.

Majic, you have always made good points, rational posts and come from a reasonable perspective because in my estimation you are an intelligent person who has a good heart. Those points are why I know you understand that Sandy Hook is such an incredibly complicated situation that peddles up emotion from almost anyone who cares about life in general. It's so complicated that I think some individuals struggle to cope with the complexity of emotion they truly feel about it much less having to deal with that and try to stay objective to moderate on a site like ATS. I can't say I would of wanted to be in any of your shoes during that period...... Yikes.

I have never seen a situation like it to tell you the truth. I will admit, I have never felt more strongly in my beliefs about a situation either and that is saying a lot but everything that I know or would try to tell to others about the event is largely just one opinion. I wasn't there and at the end of the day, I don't really know despite how I feel or badly I want to know. Sometimes that is a very powerful factor in cases like this, people are so emotional and upset that they want to make sense of it somehow and that can lead to trouble..........

I can't speak for everyone on ATS obviously but I can say that in my book at least, I consider the matter closed and I consider it closed because of amazing communication by a member of the staff who went out of way to address an issue in a very clear and transparent way that any rational member could understand. That is to say, I consider the conspiracy to cover up Sandy Hook by ATS closed. I explicitly reserve the right to continue any other conspircy theorys I have about Sandy Hook, of which there is no shortage, but that is another converstation completely.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Helious
I explicitly reserve the right to continue any other conspircy theorys I have about Sandy Hook, of which there is no shortage, but that is another converstation completely.

This is ATS.

There will be theories.

reply to post by Majic

Yes, and each event is like a trigger for another event like the ripple effects I mentioned earlier.
For example, when Sandy Hook threads were closed down, what is this communicating to ATSers about what society expects from its people and where our free speech rights end? Do you believe that closing these threads discouraged or encouraged threads about the Boston Bombing being a manufactured event?
Just food for thought using an example most ATSers have observed and can relate to on some level. It's also something I've been pondering. Seeing as the "actor" meme keeps cropping up lately, it's not hard to understand why we say the world is a stage and war is a theater.

Highly improbable to speculate that a site with this magnitude of traffic on the roads of 'secrecy', would not be monitored or interfered with in someway by someone functioning as 'traffic guards' - regardless of the dedication of its owners and operators...because they are dedicated, and otherwise it would be ridiculously obvious!

Facebook surveys the mundane minutia for the daily dose of data mining...should we really expect anything less from one of the most visited alternative sites - and again to reiterate...it wouldnt even have to be performed by the owners and operators who are very dedicated.

So what to do - think before you speak & speak truth to power ~

Thanks ats...

reply to post by awake1234

it would be ridiculously obvious!

Facebook surveys the mundane minutia for the daily dose of data mining...

I thought it was ridiculously obvious that Facebook was a government endeavor.
Even if ATS wasn't designed by or for the government, would it be that obvious if ATS had an agenda either on the collective or individual level? We're talking about circles within circles. For example, just look at all the insider trading, bribery, and back stabbing that goes on in the corporate and political arenas. ATS isn't immune to this either. What if, say, the CIA got to Springer (LOL!) and he was now getting a whole lot of money to do domestic spying and data mining for them. Or what if a political group got to some of the mods and were paying them to shut down certain threads? Would anyone in the very inner circles of ATS administration pick up on this if everyone involved didn't know the others were involved and never mentioned a word to anyone? And if these schemes were discovered, how long would it take?
Espionage is happening all around us. Why is it so hard to believe (in this economy) that someone wouldn't take the right amount of money to "act" in any given situation?
I'm not trying to suggest anything or make anyone paranoid. I'm simply trying to demonstrate that people are a commodity and can be bought and sold, which is exactly why people call others "shills". Especially in this economy and the uncertainty surrounding it, it's not hard for me to believe that people would be willing to sit on a blog and do what they're told for a paycheck. Anyways, everyone is always entitled to their beliefs no matter how bizarre and unrealistic they may be, it's just more comforting to think that someone is making a living off pretending they feel one way when they actually don't. At least I hope the ones fighting the good fight aren't outnumbered. Sometimes it feels that way though. Then again, who exactly are the good guys?
All of this stuff just starts to get very complicated when you really scrutinize the complexities involved.

reply to post by Majic


You don't even want to explain why my comments are racists. What does that make you? Ignoring the topic = another form of racism.

Once again, I think you are using the those porous rules arbitrary to stamp out topics that are too taboo for you. Criticism of Jews might by one of them?

Originally posted by Unferth
You don't even want to explain why my comments are racists. What does that make you? Ignoring the topic = another form of racism.

Racial division is utter BS

In my humble opinion, you are swatting imaginary flies.

Originally posted by Unferth
You don't even want to explain why my comments are racists.

...

Criticism of Jews might by one of them?

You just explained your bigotry all on your own.

reply to post by Afterthought



Thanks.
Perhaps the meaning was not clearly conveyed in the message.
We can assume that if ats isnt monitored and infiltrated in the least, then the majority of discussion here is redundant and unimportant...because not to assume this site is observed presumes either; 1. the government lacks the efficiency to track potentially sensitive information which concerns itself on this site...or...2. the government doesnt care enough to invest time.
The second is more likley than the first - however given the times we are alive in now - its just as silly....
The point is that ats may not be organized as a disinfo site by its designers, but that it doesnt have to be to be used that way~
LOVE