Let's put an end to ALL secret societies

Originally posted by peopledying
So basicall read it, refute it or shutup.

I'm sorry you don't command me the Jesuits do.

You might be shocked but the links you have posted are not new, in fact if you do a little research you will find that they have already been discussed here before.

OK I'll just give you a little example. from the forbiddenknowledge.com link

Now, according to Alberto Rivera, he was invited—because he was a top Jesuit at the time in the late ’60s—he was invited to a "Black Mass" in Spain where there were quite a few top Jesuit Generals present. And he called it a "Black Mass". Well, when you’re involved in a "Black Mass", you’re involved in the worship of Lucifer, all dressed in their black capes and so on.

That is pure Jack Chick. Alberto Rivera is a con-man plain and simple here is a site with more info. ic.net...

Thanks Cug - That is the kind of response I have been looking for believe it or not. If some of the members had been less "prickish" I would have been less antagonistic. I was honest in saying I recently discovered that view and never claimed it was all true, just a lot of it made sense. It is a lot of material to research. People have been working on just the JFK aspect fpr 40+ years! I will look at thar link you provided. I also realize the "dispensationlist " aspect and will work on that as well.

Is there a motive for dispensationlists to be anti-Jesuit? The links I provide have a mass of info in them and so far I haven't had time to prove or disprove (aspects) it.



Here is a nice piece from a Masonic Organization that compiles a lot of the conspiracy against Masons ideas.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

Copy and pasting full articles on our site does nothing to help your arguement or our bandwidth. Refrain from this as further infraction of this manner will be warned.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by intrepid]

Nice to see you're accessing a better class of website -- but I'd caution you to post links and "snippets" necessary to make your point. Posting pages of text will get you in trouble with the Mods of almost any forum -- ATS or anywhere.

You can use the "edit" button to remove 499 of the pages from your post above...

Respectfully...

DD

Originally posted by peopledying
Senrak if you bothered to read carefully you would have seen what I said about spending a lot of time reading here before contributing,

Nope. I've read the garbage on forbidden knowledge and other such sites many times. Nothing new under the sun.

it is not so difficult to understand

Oh, good. NOW you tell me. I wasted so much time and money on my college education...

Who knows who you really are either.

For one...I do...and that's really all that matters. I couldn't care LESS whether you or your ilk do.

Actually I am beginning to wonder why you supossed Masonshang out here. You don't contribute much beyond some occult info. Are you just doing PR or in it for the entertainment?

BINGO! Give that man a ceeegarrr! I'm here PURELY to be entertained by posters like you who think reading a few web-sites that you Googled-up actually constitutes legitimate research.

I thought you would be out doing charitable works.

Had a Shriners fund-raiser just this last weekend in fact. The $$ goes to the Childrens Hospitals. But I do have a life outside of Masonry so I do other things as well.

Possibly you are not Masons at all but watchers?

I guess in some cases that's possible. Not in this one though. I've been a Master Mason for 16 years now. Became one in 1989, but again, if you choose to disbelieve that, who cares?

Have any of you except Markus actuall bothered to read the documentation in the 3 links I provided, the two from forbidden knowledge and the other one?

See Above.

I did not write it I discovered it. It made a lot of sense to me.

Well there ya go! It made sense to you so run with it. I for one find most of it to be unadulterated ka-ka.

I have researched some of it and have not found any obvious hoaxes so far. There is nothing to debate here if you don't read it.

Mea Culpa! I didn't realize this was a debate. I thought it was a discussion forum. Mea Maxima Culpa!

You know the info contained in those links is very depressing and I would be thrilled if any of you care enought about the world to read it, the whole damn miserable lot of it. Maybe you tell me it is not true and show me why.

Why would you belive me if I told you that? I mean you already think I'm an imposter Mason or a "watcher" (whatever the hell that is...)

I would be forever grateful if you would because I don NOT want the world continuing down this path. Is that not why peole are in to determining the truth about conspiraccys. I can see a lot of you are just in it for the entertainment value. It is full of references and researchable documentation but ias it covers many centuries it is a lot to work with. I think some of you don't really want to know, just like the average population.

I for one don't want to know....makes the Merlot sour on my stomach.

For another of you poor readers the supposition is that the (specially selected) high Masons answer to the Jesuits THROUGH the Order of the Garter.

"High Masons" huh? Try an ATS search and see just what a "high Mason" is before you start believing that tripe.

I was trying to extract some excerpts to awaken you interest enought to actaully read the links through which apparently you haven't.

Sorry I hurt your feelings by not reading those tired old links that guys like you keep dredging up and posting here on the forum without EVER using the ATS search function to see that this garbage has been talked about and talked about ad nauseam. (Hint: the search function is your friend...you'll learn a LOT without us having to have a 600 post thread rehashing this stuff)

By the way noone has refuted a single point mentioned in the links so don't complain about lack of evidence. The evidence is in the links and it is the best material in my opinion I have after quite some effort looking into these sorts of topics.

Googling up some web-sites constitutes "quite some effort" ...don't strain yourself there boy...

So basicall read it, refute it or shutup.

Oh, how mature of you. "shut up" My mother would have washed my mouth with soap for saying that.

TTFN

Originally posted by peopledying
Thanks Cug - That is the kind of response I have been looking for believe it or not. If some of the members had been less "prickish" I would have been less antagonistic.

Sorry you think I'm a prick. (Actually, I don't care at all, but anyway...)

Try this site. It is very informative and contains the one thing that's most important for authenticity...DOCUMENTATION

www.masonicinfo.com...

Regards

the prick, Senrak

Marcus, just WHO are you to dictate what othes may choose to keep private or make public? I didn't notice that God has died and there was a vacancy for that station.

I am not setting public policy; Masons do and they are pawns of Jesuits.

The very country you are living in with all its freedoms was launched by Masons (George Washington,etc) Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian. That your mouth can even open to express such nonsense without having a boot shoved in it was courtesy of the Masons and many secret societies. The "public" schools in Texas were run by masons for a long time, before taken over by the state. Much GOOD is quietly done all around the world for others, but not tooted from the rooftops or made a public spectacle. Modesty and humility are STILL considered virtues by members of the various brotherhoods, such that they keep their good works QUIET, not reported to the newspapers and bragged about.

This country was founded by Christians and not by Masons. Stop giving credit to a lodge filled with men. Christian principles drove them to set-up the free America. It was Martin Luther and many other CHRISTIANS who opposed the Roman Church and later set up wave to follow in founding America - not Masons!

As to "secrecy", sacred things are kept private and away from the eyes (and tongues) of those who would profane them. You don't care for that? Tough--get over it. Even religionists would resent the profane from running around in their churches, prying into things out of gross curiosity, trampeling those things that they hold dear into the mud of ignorance and crudeness.

Once again, you can do as you want in private. But don’t mess with my money, by using coercion via law and politics and I would agree with you.

Sorry my friend, we will keep our "secrets" until those like you grow up enough to appreciate and respect them. Then, if you show yourself worthy and with the right ATTITUDE, we will welcome even you into our fold. The door is never closed to those who seek in the right manner..

Keep your secrets if it makes you feel special. A bunch of men gathering together in a lodge think they have some secrets, and for those things to be kept secret they enforce it in which way? Have any of your secrets escaped and if so, are they still a secret – I think not. Once more, I’m only against those who set Public polic

OK. Lets eliminate all secret societies.

First thing we have to do is define 'secret society' so we can begin to draw up our list of proscribed organizations.

What do you mean by the term 'secret society'?

Another loaded question, I see. Why don't you ask the MODS at ATS and stop asking retarded questions designed to DISTRACT. Anyone interested in a textbook example - there you are.

Nice to see you're accessing a better class of website

A better class website says who? What a wonderfully pompous package those Masons and apologists put together - and imagine that; all in one site! The Masons revert to attacking the character of a man because they are unable to dispute his claims. How typical are they to offer the reader no real peace of mind. They attempt to paint in the readers' mind, the idea that only a fool would disagree.

Like looking at the WTC fall. Masons think it was Bin Laden with no evidence and attack those who ask for some proof.




[edit on 24-11-2005 by markusjharper]

Originally posted by markusjharper
A better class website says who?

Me. And lots of others as well. They, unlike others, provide EVIDENCE of their statements.

The Masons revert to attacking the character of a man because they are unable to dispute his claims.

Evidence?

Like looking at the WTC fall. Masons think it was Bin Laden...

Evidence that you are qualified to judge or proclaim what "Masons think"?

with no evidence and attack those who ask for some proof.

Wow.

Pot? Meet Kettle.
Kettle? This is POT.

Many of us here have been asking you for some evidence -- ANY evidence -- of your outlandish claims since you arrived. What little you've provided has -- rather than supporting your statements -- been easily shown to say the opposite of what you allege.

Seriously -- Evidence?

DD

Edit: Rookie "quote" Formatting

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Dedicated_Dad]

Originally posted by markusjharper
Marcus, just WHO are you to dictate what others may choose to keep private or make public? I didn't notice that God has died and there was a vacancy for that station.

I am not setting public policy; Masons do and they are pawns of Jesuits.

You are attempting in the very first statements of your post to DO EXACTLY THAT! (Remember--you are esposing DOING AWAY with ALL Secret Societies(whatever you mean by that--firing squad--incarciration,etc?)

Pawns of the Jesuits (whom I avoid)? Say what? Just how does that occur...are Jeesuits running around in the Lodge during the lodge work--nope, never saw one. Perhaps they are out there with us when we do chairaitable work? Nope, didn't find any of them there then either. You don't seem to show any understanding of how Masonry is structured or have a clue as to what we do. Understandable since you are evidently NOT one, but there are many who would talk with you and there are open houses you can attend if you so desired.

The very country you are living in with all its freedoms was launched by Masons (George Washington,etc) Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian. That your mouth can even open to express such nonsense without having a boot shoved in it was courtesy of the Masons and many secret societies. The "public" schools in Texas were run by masons for a long time, before taken over by the state. Much GOOD is quietly done all around the world for others, but not tooted from the rooftops or made a public spectacle. Modesty and humility are STILL considered virtues by members of the various brotherhoods, such that they keep their good works QUIET, not reported to the newspapers and bragged about.

This country was founded by Christians and not by Masons.

That Masons may have been Christians is irrelevant to what I said. Many of the Founders were BOTH. They could just as easily have been Buddhists, but Masonry was DEEPLY involved in the founding of this nation. It wasn't CHRISTIAN symbols that appear on the Nations money or other documents scattered through our early history, BUT MASONIC. SORRY, Christianity cannot lay claim to the founding of the Nation. Is Masonry involved in Nation building and political activities...well DUH....we ARE the "builders" after all. Is our purpose then MALIGN or sinister? Hardly. What Masonry builds is dedicated to the highest principles of the Universe and to the God that created it all. Is that something to be concerned about? Only if you are a brother of the Dark Lodge. Do we get some orders from some temporal source to act in certain ways from some super high Mason somewhare? Not hardly. We are directed FROM WITHIN, by our own consciences and goodwill. We act as motivated by the Divine that lives within ALL of us (you included).

Stop giving credit to a lodge filled with men.

I give credit where credit is due.

Christian principles drove them to set-up the free America. It was Martin Luther and many other CHRISTIANS who opposed the Roman Church and later set up wave to follow in founding America - not Masons!

Actually it drove them to seek religious freedom AS COLONISTS in the COLONIES of America. And the doctrinal war between the different CHRISTIAN (you're BOTH Christians you see or have you forgotten that?) sects was not the guiding force of the Bill of Rights or the Founding ofthe American Government (although it had its influence)

As to "secrecy", sacred things are kept private and away from the eyes (and tongues) of those who would profane them. You don't care for that? Tough--get over it. Even religionists would resent the profane from running around in their churches, prying into things out of gross curiosity, trampeling those things that they hold dear into the mud of ignorance and crudeness.

Once again, you can do as you want in private. But don’t mess with my money, by using coercion via law and politics and I would agree with you.

So who wants YOUR money? Keep it ALL to yourself, who cares. Certainly Masonry doesn't ask you for monetary contributions. If you wish to give some, fine, if not, have a nice day... Are you complaining about the "Tax Exempt" status? Great. If Tax exemption bothers you, lobby to have a law that removes ALL activities from tax exemption. tax EVERY chairitable work...to the death if you think people will agree to that. Tax Exemption is determined by Governmental Authorities, NOT MASONS. Go pick a beef with them, there is nothing that Masonry can do about that.

Sorry my friend, we will keep our "secrets" until those like you grow up enough to appreciate and respect them. Then, if you show yourself worthy and with the right ATTITUDE, we will welcome even you into our fold. The door is never closed to those who seek in the right manner..

Keep your secrets if it makes you feel special.

:isten child, it has nothing to do with "feeling special". It has to do with respect and the holding dear of things of value. (And in some intolerant times, it was necessary for the preservation of life itself and freedom)

A bunch of men gathering together in a lodge think they have some secrets, and for those things to be kept secret they enforce it in which way?

The "secrecy" which seems to gall you so much young one is an ATTITUDE which we assume toward that which we hold as sacred. That these may escape to the profane world is really irrelevant. It's not the SECRECY that is of prime importance, it's the SECRET.

Have any of your secrets escaped and if so, are they still a secret – I think not. Once more, I’m only against those who set Public policy.

Then I am to assume by this statement that you are an Anarchist? Your intent is to distroy ANY Governmental Authority or anyone who "sets public policy"? Well Jolly Good then. Go out and give THAT a shot and leave the Masons alone. You just seem to resent having ANY authority over your own personal ego. I would suggest trying to find a desert Island somewhere off the beaten track and moving there. Then only Nature herself would be there to tell you what to do. (She would also ignore your complaints, but that's between you and her)



[edit on 25-11-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

alcyone,

You seperate "Secrecy" from "the Secret".

What is this big Secret that a man could not find from searching within or from that given to us via several Holy books etc?

Does one need to be a Mason to understand this secret?

God is love and we are all one - is that not close enough? Is their something the non-Mason is missing so that it should prompt a seeker to join a lodge?

Originally posted by alcyone


This country was founded by Christians and not by Masons.

Can't argue with the first part. The second part is wrong though. A heckuva lot of those Christians were Freemasons.
We know this for a fact. They are names in American history.

The above kinda knocks out your Jesuit conspiracy though doesn't it? After all, if these guys were Protestant Freemasons, it's hardly likely that they would be working for the Jesuits. In fact the whole reason for their forefathers leaving England was so that they could practice religious Freedom - not be tied down by state and Church.

What you've stated defies logic. You're saying that people escaped one form of religious control to purposely embrace another. In the meantime they set up a country whose ethos is Freedom. Doesn't quite scan does it?

Originally posted by markusjharper
What is this big Secret that a man could not find from searching within or from that given to us via several Holy books etc?

There is no "big secret" that man could not find from searching withing, etc. Freemasonry provides SOME men a path to do that searching.

Does one need to be a Mason to understand this secret?

No. Not at all.

God is love and we are all one - is that not close enough?

For some it is...not for others. We may be "one" but we're also "many" Everyone is different and certain truths are revealed to different people in different ways. Look at religion for example...if what you're suggesting was sound, wouldn't there be only ONE religion that EVERYONE subscribed to?

Is their something the non-Mason is missing so that it should prompt a seeker to join a lodge?

Not necessarily all non-Masons. Masonry is NOT for everyone and we don't WANT everyone, that's why we investigate prospective members so thoroughly (or we're supposed to anyway).

PS. I hope you find this response "respectable" and won't have to say I have a "micro-brain" or that I'm a "prick" again.

Originally posted by markusjharper
alcyone,

You seperate "Secrecy" from "the Secret".

What is this big Secret that a man could not find from searching within or from that given to us via several Holy books etc?

If you have to ask, then you do not know...


Does one need to be a Mason to understand this secret?

No. But it is one of many paths to the same truth. Signposts and guidance were given to us by those who have passed previous to us.

God is love and we are all one - is that not close enough?

You say these words but do you REALLY KNOW their truth? If you did, I doubt we would be having this converwsation.

Is their something the non-Mason is missing so that it should prompt a seeker to join a lodge?

For some, YES. And there are other paths as well. Masonry is but one of many.

If you have to ask, then you do not know (the secret)...

I was not asking because I do not know the secret but asking rather to ascertain the kind of response you would be providing for the readers on this forum. Thus, should we detect an element of egoism within any shallow attempt to imply a sort if superiority, it already reveals the secret.

I said that:

God is love and we are all one - is that not close enough?

I did not ascribe that ALL people must accept this but I do ascribe that there can be both Truth and falsehoods. Does Masonry not accept teaching falsehoods or misleading instead of guiding those to the truth of Ma’at? Did not Pike clearly reveal his immature and pompossness selfishness regarding the secret?

You say these words but do you REALLY KNOW their truth? If you did, I doubt we would be having this converwsation.

Since you do not know me, it is therefore irrelevant whether you think I know what you call is the truth. And whether the truth you speak of is Absolute or not, is another issue. I can assure you that faith is useless to those who do indeed know the truth and truth never masquerades in secret. As it cannot by definition, be a secret and also stand for truth. To realise one’s own true inner nature is not a secret of the lodge, or even that of Masonry; nor should it ever be something secret to lay claim to.

For some, YES. And there are other paths as well. Masonry is but one of many

What can it offer a person who has already abolished the need for organisational institutions, the man who has destroyed the egoistic nature within. What need is there other than one’s own true relationship with the divine to join anything that says it has a secret? I’m not totally disagreeing with you but you claim to know the secret and that I do not, simply based on my asking you a question

Did not Yeshua speak clearly in the Bible? He knew that which is considered dangerous to the unevolved egoism, should not be taught publically, however made it clear that all correctly revealed esoteric teachings are never supposed to be so dangerous, that if taught to the mainstream it could place them in any major harm.

Yes it is much better than Masonicinfo which is pretty lame or at least does not address some of the mopre interesting topics.

Originally posted by Dedicated_Dad
Nice to see you're accessing a better class of website -- but I'd caution you to post links and "snippets" necessary to make your point. Posting pages of text will get you in trouble with the Mods of almost any forum -- ATS or anywhere.

You can use the "edit" button to remove 499 of the pages from your post above...

Respectfully...

DD

Actually the forbidden knowledge has better documentation with a lot of book and other references.

I

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by peopledying
Thanks Cug - That is the kind of response I have been looking for believe it or not. If some of the members had been less "prickish" I would have been less antagonistic.

Sorry you think I'm a prick. (Actually, I don't care at all, but anyway...)

Hmm, did I say yoou were a prick? I think I said "prickish" would could mean thorny or abrasive. Suit yourself as to the interperaationbut the point was you seem quick to bellitle persons even if they are bringing valid points to bear, even you you think they are not.

Try this site. It is very informative and contains the one thing that's most important for authenticity...DOCUMENTATION

www.masonicinfo.com...
I have been there often but was not overly impressed with the depth of the accusations mentioned there. By the way what makes masonicinfo documentation better than the forbiddenknowledge or other contrarian sites that provode references??

Regards

the prick, Senrak

Guys, this thread is going to Hell in a handbasket. Lousy responses, mindly musings and no real reason to keep the life support system on it. I hope it comes out of the coma real soon.

Originally posted by markusjharper
...Does Masonry not accept teaching falsehoods ...

Masonry definitely does not accept teaching falsehoods. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If so, please provide it.

or misleading instead of guiding those to the truth ...

Again, Masonry definitely does not accept misleading anyone. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If so, please provide it.

of Ma’at?

Again, Masonry has nothing whatsoever to do with "ma'at." Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If so, please provide it.

Did not Pike clearly reveal his immature and pompossness selfishness regarding the secret?

Do you have any evidence to support this statement? If so, please provide it.

...truth never masquerades in secret. As it cannot by definition, be a secret and also stand for truth...

In Mark Chapter 4, the Lord said:
"...
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand
...

So you now deign to say that our Lord does not "stand for truth"?

Did not Yeshua speak clearly in the Bible?

Apparently -- and obviously -- not.

In Matthew 7 He also told us this:
"...
6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
..."

DD

Originally posted by markusjharper

If you have to ask, then you do not know (the secret)...

I was not asking because I do not know the secret but asking rather to ascertain the kind of response you would be providing for the readers on this forum. Thus, should we detect an element of egoism within any shallow attempt to imply a sort if superiority, it already reveals the secret.

Then your question was not honest, yet I gave you an honest answer...

I said that:

God is love and we are all one - is that not close enough?

I did not ascribe that ALL people must accept this but I do ascribe that there can be both Truth and falsehoods. Does Masonry not accept teaching falsehoods or misleading instead of guiding those to the truth of Ma’at? Did not Pike clearly reveal his immature and pompossness selfishness regarding the secret?

Just as in the Church or any other group, there are those who embody the principles of the Organization and those who meerly lay claim to them. Selfishness exists where Truth does not.

You say these words but do you REALLY KNOW their truth? If you did, I doubt we would be having this converwsation.

Since you do not know me, it is therefore irrelevant whether you think I know what you call is the truth. And whether the truth you speak of is Absolute or not, is another issue. I can assure you that faith is useless to those who do indeed know the truth and truth never masquerades in secret. As it cannot by definition, be a secret and also stand for truth. To realise one’s own true inner nature is not a secret of the lodge, or even that of Masonry; nor should it ever be something secret to lay claim to.

The purpose of "secrecy" is NOT to obscure, but to protect. Since the average man is filled with vanity and ego, the stricture of secrecy disciplines his nature. His impulse to brag about his knowledge and understanding is curtailed, which provides for growth. Humility is attained and patience, both useful attributes on the path to enlightnment. There is also another purpose to secrecy. Some of the knowledge imparted (not necessairly from Masonry) to the Candidate could be very distructive to the unprepared. These laws and principles must remain undisclosed except to the duely and lawfully prepared student, who has demonstrated his readiness for advancement.

It is also TRUE that the relization of ones own inner nature is not restricted to Masonry or ANY other Esoteric group. These groups however provide a graduated and SAFE program of advancement and instruction which can be helpful to the SINCERE student on his way to attainment. (As long as those groups remain sincere and in harmony with the true purpose behind them)

For some, YES. And there are other paths as well. Masonry is but one of many

What can it offer a person who has already abolished the need for organisational institutions, the man who has destroyed the egoistic nature within. What need is there other than one’s own true relationship with the divine to join anything that says it has a secret? I’m not totally disagreeing with you but you claim to know the secret and that I do not, simply based on my asking you a question

For such an advanced one as you discribe, the answer should be obvious. The need for those groups would not be HIS need, but THEIRS. Thus he would support their efforts as a means of helping the masses of mankind.
Spiritual SELFISHNESS can be subtle indeed and not easy to detect.

I did not claim that you did not know the secret, only that your question put that knowledge in doubt...

Did not Yeshua speak clearly in the Bible? He knew that which is considered dangerous to the unevolved egoism, should not be taught publically, however made it clear that all correctly revealed esoteric teachings are never supposed to be so dangerous, that if taught to the mainstream it could place them in any major harm.

He gave them that which they were capable and ready to receive.

Issu also taught in parables and DID NOT reveal all to the public, but reserved the more esoteric teachings to his inner disciples. (And even with them, not all were equally ready)

Consider this even from a mundane standpoint. Would it be wise to reveal to primative warring tribes who were using bows and arrows, the mysteries of gunpowder? Would this not be doing an injustice and great harm to them? Could someone with a great love for humanity and compassion commit such an injustice in the name of "revealing all" to the unprepared and unworthy? I Think not.