conspiracy against masons?

It’s like gun control, for you do not create an environment in secret to disarm people without them knowing but rather you allow that person’s conscious mind to decide that guns are not a good thing.

Two points here ,
First Gun Control is knowing where you place your shots.
Second, If guns kill people then spoons made Rosanne Barr fat.

*Please note that I am not saying "churches are bad" -- obviously it would be ridiculous for me to judge all Christians, Baptist churches, Baptists or Churches based on the behaviour of this bunch of idiots.

Why not? it is the same logic used and promoted by all of the fundies on this
site. Therefore I submit that ALL clergy of the xian persuasion are "doing little boys in the back room." some just havent been caught yet. The ones that
are not doing boys are doing drugs and hookers at the local NOtel-Motel
where rooms are rented by the hour.

I'd prefer that everyone accept Christ as their savior, but guess what, that is their choice - God gave it to them, and we don't have the right to beat them up over it. What we ought to do is pray for them, if we really are Christians.

Im sure you would. But what you havent yet explained is why a rabid fundie
such as yourself . a believer in the only gawd would look to and display a Norse God? Is it that maybe you really arent sure and are trying to cover your
bases or are you just intentionally trying to be rude and obnoxious?

[edit on 28-11-2005 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
First Gun Control is knowing where you place your shots.
Second, If guns kill people then spoons made Rosanne Barr fat.

Yeah. But it's like Eddie Izzard says - "The gun helps". If people just ran around shouting "Bang!!!" at each other I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't hurt as much.

Im sure you would. But what you havent yet explained is why a rabid fundie
such as yourself . a believer in the only gawd would look to and display a Norse God? Is it that maybe you really arent sure and are trying to cover your
bases or are you just intentionally trying to be rude and obnoxious?

You don't have to be a follower or non-follower of a religion to appreciate a certain character from another do you? I'm no believer in Norse mythology, but I do think Thor is ultra-cool. I don't see why it would be offensive to use his image to anyone. Marvel comics had a character called Thor - I don't reckon anyone has read his adventures and thought "I shouldn't be reading this 'cos this is a guy who is a figure from a different religion".

Oh Dedicated Dad, I'll try to answer the BAIT of being asked to provide EVIDENCE, as mildly as my current flu filled head will allow but that tired old tactic really gets under my skin.

It's not my fault if certain lodges only find 'good' enough men of a certain class worthy of membership. Maybe all the other men who would otherwise be 'worthy' have wives that preclude their acceptance. Maybe they just don't mix with enough masons in their day to day lives for them to know each other well enough. There are all sorts of reasons, within the rules, that can justify the racial mix (or lack of) of local lodges. But it does happen that not all lodges represent the overall racial mix of their districts.

Now I'm sure you've heared of the term, 'mates rates' or even 'discounts'. It's through the right, masons admit to, of 'supporting' 'brothers' that good businesses go under, e.g. Two Italian family restaurants-;
one exchanges discount meals to masons for discount supplies from masons. This attracts the better class of wealthier customers who want to be seen among their own kind so normal prices can be set a bit higher because those people don't want to be seen as cheap. Getting higher prices on meals made with discounted ingrediants and supplies gets you good profits so you upgrade, enlarge and refurbish, again at discounted, mates rates and attract even more of the right sort of customers. The owner/chef gets sicks but no problem, they can afford to hire a top class chef and the business roles along. Meanwhile-;
the other has to pay full prices for everything and can' t attrack the 'right sort' of customer away from supporting their 'mates' (fellow masons) so they have to settle for the less well heeled dinner who they can only attract with larger portions at a cheaper price and the wealthy of the town wouldn't be seen dead in that sort of place with those sorts of people which keeps them just making enough to make a living. The owner/chef gets sick and though they have a loyal customer base they're not the sort of people who can help them out and as they can't afford to hire in the same standard of chef without going under, they cut their losses and close and their customers then start going to the other cheap eatery, that just happens to be owned by the masons that also own the other Italian retaurant...

I could go on and on with these sorts of examples in all businesses but why bother, you and I know how it works and know this is one of the reasons so many people have a problem with masonry. You can't call them corrupt or conspiring, they have a right to support their 'brothers' however they wish. It's not their fault that by supporting each other there is less money in the community to support the "profane."

Before I get into this further, I'd like to request that the reader take note of the substantial difference in the tone of my responses to Suzy as compared with my other responses to ... well ... you know ...

There's a reason -- Suzy proferred apparently rational allegations of un-masonic conduct, and if they can be shown to be true, I would want to see them handled appropriately for the good of the Craft (as would any good Mason).

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Oh Dedicated Dad, I'll try to answer the BAIT of being asked to provide EVIDENCE

Funny... You requested a constructive answer and truly believe I gave you one. I'd appreciate if anyone here sees otherwise, they tell me so -- via U2U if you like.

Contrary to what you seem to think, good Masons take serious allegations, well -- seriously. We don't want jerks and bigots out there making our Fraternity (and by extension the rest of us) look bad.

I sincerely offered to personally ensure that proper channels were informed if there was any evidence of wrongdoing -- and all should consider that an open-ended and standing offer.

But you see that offer as "BAIT."

You may want to consider what that says about your outlook.

It's not my fault if certain lodges only find 'good' enough men of a certain class worthy of membership.

Masonry looks upon the inner -- and not the OUTER -- qualifications of a man. All candidates are received into Masonry "poor and penniless" for a good reason. In my lodge there are millionaires and truck drivers. The outgoing "Master" drives a truck and pumps out porta-potties. We "meet upon the level" -- the only "class" we care about is one of character, integrity and cooperation -- although we do request that "Cap'n Poopy" change his clothes before dinner...

Maybe all the other men who would otherwise be 'worthy' have wives that preclude their acceptance. Maybe they just don't mix with enough masons in their day to day lives for them to know each other well enough. There are all sorts of reasons, within the rules, that can justify the racial mix (or lack of) of local lodges. But it does happen that not all lodges represent the overall racial mix of their districts.

And you think "lodges [should] represent the overall racial mix of their districts"? Do you think that if they don't, this contitutes evidence of racism or conspiracy? Have you considered the possibility that no "people of colour" have applied for admission? Freemasonry prohibits "recruiting" so there's really nothing we could do to ensure any sort of "mix".

Even if there were, would you want a Lodge (or ANY organization for that matter) to sit down with their list of members, compare it to the demographics of the surrounding area, and come to a conclusion such as

"We need 3 blacks, 4 asians and 7 hispanics to balance out our color-chart, so we'll have to reject all the white guys until we find them. Anybody know any blacks?"

I for one would not wish to be the man they "selected" for membership!

If you are saying that you can provide evidence that this lodge has a history of rejecting all otherwise qualified men of color who have made application, while accepting "white" men who are less qualified, again, this is something that should not be tolerated. Send me a U2U with the name and location of the Lodge and what evidence you have and I'll contact the proper authority.

My experience and patterns throughout history have shown that people -- every color in the crayon box -- tend to congregate in groups of people like themselves. I'm not saying this is "good", nor "right", rather just that it *is*. It is NOT however evidence of a "right white brotherhood." Here in the US recent "school choice" initiatives have resulted in "segregated" schools. Suggestions of repeating the past de-segregation requirements have met with strong opposition from people of all races, forcing the race-baiters in our society to rethink their strategies.

Further, one of the strongest forces opposing "recognition" between "Regular" (read:"white") and "Prince Hall" (read:"Black") masonry has been the members of Prince Hall who don't want to risk the loss of identity and the long history of a great and proud institution.

Now I'm sure you've heared of the term, 'mates rates' or even 'discounts'. ... Two Italian family restaurants-;
one exchanges discount meals to masons for discount supplies from masons.

Again, you're telling a nice story, but is there evidence of this? What you're describing sounds like "barter" and happens between all sorts of people! In the situation you describe, at least in the US, it would be more likely to be "one exchanges discount meals to "italians" for discount supplies from "italians". Is this barter, good business, or illegal "mafia" racketeering? What if the people in question were "asians"? Women?

This attracts the better class of wealthier customers

Who can't afford to pay full price for a meal?

you and I know how it works and know this is one of the reasons so many people have a problem with masonry.

I *do* know how it works -- but even before I joined the Fraternity I knew better than to think Masons were to blame for everything that went wrong.

Businesses fail for all sorts of reasons, sometimes due to poor location, and even poor management. Much easier to blame those evil Masons though, huh? -- saves me from having to admit I made mistakes...

When as a much younger (and non-Mason) man my first attempt at self-employment went poorly, I blamed racism, and not without evidence thereof. The fact is that I failed because I'd made lots of mistakes -- and learned lessons which served me well in future endeavors. I now look at my scapegoat as what it was -- a childish deflection of my own responsibility.

I'll repeat my offer, and my request -- if you can provide evidence of a racist and conspiratorial lodge, kindly do so and I'll see it gets the investigation it deserves. If not, please qualify your statements about such as the "feelings" or "impressions" they are.

Sincerely and respectfully,

DD

O.K., last go at TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY so many people have problems with masonry.

You may not like the one, of my many TRUE, "stories" about how supporting "fellow brothers" adversly effects the "profane" in the community but that's how it is.

Like the masonic truck driver that does a 'special delivery' to a brother's business which holds up delivery and so sales, to their competitor, which along with all the other 'lower class' workers and businesses who do "brotherly favours", something you all admit to, ADDS UP to making it hard for the "profane" to compete.

You 'help' eachother, it's your right, you're proud of it, it attracts many as a reason to join, WE GET IT but even with your charity and social work, this sort of networking is unjust and harmfull to "outsiders" whether it's masons or "fundimental Christians" or Moslems, whichever, it makes others, outside the networks, not like you. I'm not saying this perception is right or wrong to have but a hell of alot of people have it.

As to racist attitudes, I just finished watching the first 5 seasons of The Sopranos, yet when I mentioned Italians, the Mafia didn't even enter my mind. I'm still agast that you managed to associate the two words in your post. I can't actually remember what you wrote and I'm sure there was some reason in your mind to bring up the Mafia, when I was talking about "Ethnic food" that just happened to be Italian, but the fact that you thought it worthwhile adding "that association" to your post, sort of blew my mind.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Like the masonic truck driver that does a 'special delivery' to a brother's business which holds up delivery and so sales, to their competitor, which along with all the other 'lower class' workers and businesses who do "brotherly favours", ... ADDS UP to making it hard for the "profane" to compete.

something you all admit to

Sorry. To do that would subject me to "injury to myself" -- more accurately my business. Again -- this would be financial suicide and hence simply doesn't ring true. In any community, Masons are a small part of the population. It wouldn't take long for such behaviour to become known, and no non-Mason would do business with such an irresponsible "truck driver. Unless of course your location is some sort of "Masonic Promised Land" where Masons run everything, in which case the line to get into that lodge must be a doozy.

You 'help' eachother, it's your right, you're proud of it, it attracts many as a reason to join,

My (as most) jurisdiction has very specific questions that are asked during the investigation interviews designed to seek out this sort of selfish motivation. I've seen candidates rejected when their answers led to this conclusion. If that's why they're coming, we don't want them.

The fact is that we do FAR more for others than we do for ourselves. "Freemasonry is kindness in the home; honesty in business; courtesy toward others; dependability in one's work; compassion for the unfortunate; resistance to evil; help for the weak; concern for good government; support for public education; and above all, a life-practicing reverence for God and love of fellow man."

"We receive none, knowingly, into our ranks who are not moral and upright before God and of good repute before the world"

Again -- if you have any evidence that a Lodge is not living up to that standard, present it and I will see that the authority in their jurisdiction is aware of the situation. You'll see it changed or disbanded.

As to racist attitudes ... when I mentioned Italians, the Mafia didn't even enter my mind. I'm still agast that you managed to associate the two words in your post.

You specified Italian restaurants, I recognized that when Italians engage in the kind of behaviour you allege it's often assumed to be "mob" behavior. There's clearly no more validity to this stereotype than there is to your Masonic one.

but the fact that you thought it worthwhile adding "that association" to your post, sort of blew my mind.

Why? You've attributed "mobbish" behavior to Masons -- so, it's ok to assume bigoted stereotypes about Masons, but when its mentioned -- in passing and in the course of making a point -- about another group you find it offensive? This was what I was asking when I said "What if the people in question were 'asians'? Women?"

Your perception of Masons is inaccurate. If you can demonstrate that it's true of a certain Lodge in your area, I'll repeat my offer to do something about it, otherwise it's your mind and to close it is your prerogative, but I see no point in rehashing what you've declined to support with more than feelings and impressions. I'm truly sorry you feel that way.

DD

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Dedicated_Dad]

Another reason so many people have a problem with masons is that when they raise contentions they have with masonry the masons don't resectfully hear them out and concider the possibility that NO organization is perfect but 'shoot the messanger', beat the bleeding body with the, "We're ALL Really, Really, Really good blokes and you're just ignorant", mantra then display their 'wounds' as a warning for others not to dare question you.

You promise to weed out the bad guys IF only WE will tell you who they are (don't you already know the charactor of your 'brothers') yet people still have problems with the behaviour of individual and groups of masons in their day to day dealings with them. See above, for why they can't get these problems sorted.

AHH, I won't bother pointing out other valid issues you ignoredand diverted from with your 'mantras' as i have guests but I ask people to read back and see that I wasn't blindly attacking but just trying to explain why people have a problem with masonry, the topic of this thread.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Another reason so many people have a problem with masons is that when they raise contentions they have with masonry the masons don't resectfully hear them out and concider the possibility that NO organization is perfect but 'shoot the messanger', beat the bleeding body with the, "We're ALL Really, Really, Really good blokes and you're just ignorant", mantra then display their 'wounds' as a warning for others not to dare question you.

Is that what you read out of everything I wrote? If so, well, it must really suck to have to live inside your head. I'll pray for you. I'll also not bother in the future -- I don' t know what more I could say.

You promise to weed out the bad guys IF only WE will tell you who they are (don't you already know the charactor of your 'brothers')

[sarcasm]
Yep -- I sure do. Personally. all Four million of 'em in all thirteen thousand Lodges in the United States alone. I also know all 7,000 Freemasons in 157 Lodges in South Australia and the Northern Territory, about 105,000 in 2,044 Lodges throughout Australia" not to mention the few million spread across many thousands of lodges the other 5 continents. I'm one busy little Mason.
[/sarcasm]

The fact is that in my aquaintance -- which has comprised a goodly number in the three states in which I spend most of my time -- I don't know any that fit the description you've given. As I told you before, one or two turn up every year in my jurisdiction, and each year are promptly expelled from the Fraternity. The same happens in other jurisdictions.

As I've also said repeatedly, good Masons don't want dirtbags dirtying up our reputation, hence we want to deal with these abberants, but we can't do so without identities and evidence, for which I've also asked you repeatedly, without productive effect. Quite telling, that...

...yet people still have problems with the behaviour of individual and groups of masons in their day to day dealings with them. See above, for why they can't get these problems sorted.

Yeah -- please -- see "above". See your repeated accusations, my repeated offers to help if any evidence whatsoever can be presented, and your cries of martyrdom trying to cover up the "victim"'s refusal (or inability?) to provide any actionable information whatsoever. Please do "see above." Then ask yourself why someone with such "problems" would so soundly reject the offer -- heck the repeated pleas -- made by someone in a position and with the clearly stated DESIRE to DO something about it.

I'll repeat this again...

I'll even place it right here out in the open where it can't be missed...

all by itself...

with a box around it...

in bold type...

If you will provide me with any verifiable factual information whatsoever to support your allegations that a Lodge of Masons is acting as a "right white brotherhood" and/or engaging in unfair and unethical business practices or otherwise engaging in unmasonic conduct; or for that matter that any individual Mason is doing so, and thus bringing justifiable besmirchment upon the name of this Ancient and Honorable Fraternity, I will personally see to it that the Masonic authorities in their jurisdiction are informed of the problem, and I will demand that appropriate action be taken to rectify the situation.

What more can I offer?

DD

Originally posted by suzy ryan
AHH, I won't bother pointing out other valid issues you ignoredand diverted from with your 'mantras' as i have guests but I ask people to read back and see that I wasn't blindly attacking but just trying to explain why people have a problem with masonry, the topic of this thread.

I think that DD has been very reasonable - what else would you ask him to do? If your claims are accurate and true then contact him privately with names and evidence - what more do you want to be fair?
I'm sure if there are so many of you that feel the same way you can all testify to how exactly you have been mis-treated by these people. If it's that hard to prove then there can't be much to it can there?
I hardly see how his offer of help is 'bait' and it strikes me from your response that DD would be damned no matter what he did or didn't say.

You don't make much sense when acting suprised that you should provide the evidence, as this behaviour is not allowed in Masonry then it's pretty obvious that if it is true they will conceal it from outside Masons. If you were attacked and the police asked for a description of the assailant would you start shrieking hysterically and throwing your hands up in the air telling them they should know who it is?

Anyway, it is also deeply unfair to put all Masons in the same basket just because you may be having bad experiences from one group of them.
That sort of generalisation is what causes a lot of friction in the world today.

[edit on 29-11-2005 by AgentSmith]

D.D. thats all I had time to respond to as I had guests, which I mentioned, but I will say, answering your all too often repeated, "We are so Great, we are so great, everybody should love us 'coz we are so great" mantras, which are only words that people arn't finding being practiced in the real world, is pointless.

There are problems with masons in the real world but it's not up to us to hunt down and dob in your 'bad guys'. You 'understand' what and how your meanings of 'good' and 'bad' apply. Just be prepared to see a desert left behind if you do.

Masons say people are jealous of your business successes and that's why they pick on you but they have problems with your business networking and when they point it out you say they don't understand business. So now you have to be a mason to understand business, not just succeed at it? Give us a break....

Fine, believe what you will but don't blame others for having perceptions your arrogance feeds.

As much as I love people and know some good masons, I like horses too and am tired of beating this dead one.

Originally posted by suzy ryan


Masons say people are jealous of your business successes and that's why they pick on you but they have problems with your business networking and when they point it out you say they don't understand business. So now you have to be a mason to understand business, not just succeed at it? Give us a break....

But Masonry isn't about "business success". That's what other civic organizations, like the Rotary Club, focus on. But Freemasonry is not Rotary, it's not a business organization. Freemasonry deals in matters much more important than the business of the outer and "profane" world, as you like to call it. Freemasonry is about the search for meaning, and is a spiritual journey.

o.k. i've left it go for a while now and still no freemasons have stated their belief in any kind of 'cryptocracy' that may be using them as scapegoats for their own nefarious ends.

i did a little reading and found that besides myself and multitudes of 'conspiracy believers', some people that ought to know a little more about it than the average joe on the street.

president woodrow wilson: "Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak it above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

president franklin d. roosevelt (in a letter to colonel edward house): "The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

felix frankfurter(u.s. supreme court justice): "The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."

john f. hylan(former mayor of new york): "The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over our city, state and nation... At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally refered to as the international bankers [who] virtually run the U.S. Government for their own selfish purposes."

Originally posted by Nagell
john f. hylan(former mayor of new york): "The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over our city, state and nation... At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally refered to as the international bankers [who] virtually run the U.S. Government for their own selfish purposes."

Yup. And there you have it. There is your conspiracy. It's not Freemasonry, it's not the Jesuits, it's not the Catholics and it's not the Boy Scouts.

It's money

The organisation responsible for what's going on is society is not a small group of elite. It involves each and every one of us. With our demand for higher living standards, with our throwaway consumer society, we place and fuel the people up top and keep the system going. We supposedly get what we want and they get richer and gain more power.
Every time you buy gas fo your car - you fuel the conspiracy.
Every time you borrow from a bank - you fuel the conspiracy.
Every time you spend money - you fuel the conspiracy.

Money is the conspiracy.

yes leveller, i don't doubt it. we do fuel the conspiracy. we don't have much choice.

"Elites, not masses, govern America. In an industrial, scientific, and nuclear age, life in a democracy, just as in a totalitarian society, is shaped by a handful of men. In spite of differences in their approach to the study of power in America, scholars- political scientists and sociologists alike- agree that 'the key political, economic, and social decisions are made by tiny minorities.'" Thomas R. Dye and L. Harmon Zeigler 'The Irony of Democracy.

this idea of a wealthy ruling elite is supported by facts, according to a 1983 study by the federal reserve board;

* 2% of u.s. families control 54% of the nations wealth

*10% of the people own 86% of the net financial assets

according to the u.s. census bureau, from 1992-94, the wealthiest 5%'s share of the national income rose 14%, nearly twice that of everyone elses gain during the previous 25 years.

its no wonder the bilderbergers, the trilateralists, and the cfr are eyed with such suspicion.

i think the saying goes: "I may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me."