conspiracy against masons?

Senrak, sorry you missed the point I raised that was on topic, it was directly above what you did respond to, on the same post; that being, alot of Christians are Anti- Mason because of the habit of putting the brotherhood and 'it's take' on Christianity WAY ABOVE the Christianity they understand from studying The Bible.

There is alot of missinformation going on in the thread about the Conspiracy Against Christianity (like God being a trinity) yet the Christian Masons here arn't bothering to set folk straight with all their enlightened reason.

If you really want people to believe that as Christian Masons, you put God and His message FIRST, giving the truth of God's message at least some of attention you give to defending the brotherhood, would go a long way to opening more Christian ears to your claims about Freemasonry.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Senrak, sorry you missed the point I raised that was on topic, it was directly above what you did respond to, on the same post; that being, alot of Christians are Anti- Mason because of the habit of putting the brotherhood and 'it's take' on Christianity WAY ABOVE the Christianity they understand from studying The Bible.

Well...I suppose SOME do that. I'd hardly say "a lot" or even "alot" for that matter...

There is alot of missinformation going on in the thread about the Conspiracy Against Christianity (like God being a trinity) yet the Christian Masons here arn't bothering to set folk straight with all their enlightened reason.

I guess I've never noticed that sort of thing going on here. Is it in the Secret Societies forum? If not, that's why I missed it. I don't post elsewhere...I simply don't have time.

If you really want people to believe that as Christian Masons, you put God and His message FIRST, giving the truth of God's message at least some of attention you give to defending the brotherhood, would go a long way to opening more Christian ears to your claims about Freemasonry.

Frankly suzy, I don't care whether others believe that I do that or not. My religion is a very personal thing to me. There's nothing more important to me than the Holy Eucharist which I'll gladly discuss with anyone, but to openly debate on an electronic forum....that just isn't what I do.

...if others think that makes me less of a Christian, that's their business.

Originally posted by markusjharper
Are you taking name and plagiarizing the prodigal son, calling yourself the Dedicated Dad, or is it perhaps rather that you are fulfilling the role of yet another “Big Brother” who tutors and nit-picks the forums like the new aspiring moderator?

"Dedicated_Dad" is merely a descriptive title which I am proud to wear and which I endeavor, every day of my life, to deserve. As to "nit-picking forums"... I am merely engaging in debate, demonstrating (without necessity of much effort, frankly) that the uninformed hooey you spout is... well... hooey. See, I refuse to allow you or anyone else to spout lies about something that is very near and dear to me.

(blah-blah-snip-blah)...Might I advise you to be very careful when using terms like plagiarize (designed to invoke suspicion)

Actually, my use of the term was "designed" to call attention to your plagiarism -- which is defined as "a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work." I also supplied plenty of evidence to back up the assertion -- evidence that I am confident would convince "beyond a reasonable doubt".

(blah, blah, SNIP, blah) ... I have many e-books, books and websites to be of assistance and I will post them as I so chose ..."

Maybe you should take a break from spouting off here and actually read some of them -- but post on -- noone's stopping you.

So far however all you've done is make a bunch of outlandish and inflammatory statements (often copied verbatim from others' websites) and backed up by no evidence whatsoever. If you want to be taken seriously, anywhere outside of (and often IN) high school, you need to provide something resembling evidence.

Furthermore, I have deliberately made a stain...

(Aw... I can't. I JUST CAN'T.) ...

...to my posted acceptance; thus the shock or that karmic lesson shall come soon to those you do not yet accept that things are not always as they first appear.

Huh?

DD

Originally posted by Dedicated_Dad

Originally posted by peopledying
Huh DD.

Huh?

Here's a question for you:

If I were an intelligent person and wanted to find out the membership requirements) of some organization, would I:
(a) Go to the website of that organization or
(b) scrape the bottom of the pond looking for some more "conspiracy" slime? (note: if I got bored I could alsways browse the selection of erotica offered at the same "authoritative" site...

Hey you are losing me, I never posted a damn thing about if Masonry is a religion, silly topic, I could care less about that question as it would be a waste of time.

Why are you telling us about your sexual habits? I am sure you are not making suggestions about mine as you do not know me. Don't you normally make perverted statements like that about people you never met? Oh and any opinion that does not agree with yours is from the slime pit?


Heck, while I am at it, if I were looking for information on a fraternity, would I:
(a) Go to the oldest Masonic website in the world

I'll check it out, wow the oldest Masonic web site, must be very old.

or (b) Go to some site that also claimed cell towers are part of ELF mind-control experiments

I don't know about elf but I do know even if you turn location off you are still trackable on your cell. Does they make you feel comfy, or are you in so tight with the Patriot act you would not mind them snooping around in your house without you being informed?

If I wanted to know if Masonry was a religion, would I rely on the word of numerous masons on this very site, or would I go to the truly bizzarre website of a defrocked (um JESUIT!?!) Priest whose only real claim to fame is of having publicly gone on record in favor of killing abortion doctors.?

I thought the web was a joke for information? Or are only pro Mason sites not jokes?

I still can't figure out where your last quote came from, nor what *any* of this has to do with me...

All I can do is suggest that you start to frequent a better class of website...

Hmmm, I thought there might be a elitist tone around here.

I'll say it again, hon -- everything you read on the Intar-web ain't necessarily so...

Hon? I am of the masculine persuasion DD and I thought you were to as a dad and all.

Duh, thats why most people observe what is going on around them everyday. What does Masonry advise a citizen should do when their government lies to them constantly while raking in the profits. Of course I suppose anyone belonging to the Windsor line should be exempt right?

DD

If you really want people to believe that as Christian Masons, you put God and His message FIRST, giving the truth of God's message at least some of attention you give to defending the brotherhood, would go a long way to opening more Christian ears to your claims about Freemasonry

Well said! A Mason is supposed to be a blending device which allows everything (good and bad) to come together to the lowest common denominator, like mush. Is it no wonder then they cannot remember their own history, or seemingly disagree with each other also, including their own Scholars?

A Mason cannot be a Christian unless he accepts the Lord as Savior. But like great business men (men in black), they need to be fair and prepared, so-to-speak and therefore a belief in a God-Man will cause deep conflict within the lodges. To resolve this predicament, they throw out the rascal to ensure continuity and still somehow call themselves Christians. Other times, they are not Christians; it depends on the issue etc.
.

[edit on 26-11-2005 by markusjharper]

Originally posted by markusjharper
A Mason is supposed to be a blending device which allows everything (good and bad) to come together to the lowest common denominator, like mush"

Again with the ignorant, blanket statements. Many Christians, myself included, are proud to be Masons.

For the record, though, would you be so kind as to define exactly who you consider to be fit to wear the title "Christian"? Just a few, please.

Is it no wonder then they cannot remember their own history, or seemly seem to disagree with each other also, including their Scholars?

What does this have to do with anything? Noone knows the origin of Masonry -- it is lost in time. Any "history" prior to the few extant manuscripts is theory and speculation, regardless of the status of the "scholar" propounding the theory.

Are you saying that any group which doesn't agree on every detail is somehow unworthy of existence? What exactly ARE you saying?

A Mason cannot be a Christian unless he accepts the Lord as Savior.

No human can be such without this acceptance. This is equivalent to saying "no fish can be such without gills." What is your point?

But like great business men (men in black)...

Huh?

...they need to be fair and prepared, so-to-speak and therefore a belief in a God-Man will cause deep conflict within the lodges. To resolve this predicament, they throw out the rascal to ensure continuity and still somehow call themselves Christians.

If one were to allow any sect to prostheletyze in the Lodge, one would have to require everyone to do so. Then the complaint would be that Masonry allowed heathens to spread their religion in the Lodge, and such would be a valid complaint -- unlike this bit of nonsense. Are you saying that every organization which prohibits religious prostheletyzing should be banned? Or is it just Masonry?

Other times, they are not Christians; it depends on the issue etc.

Poppycock. I've never wavered from my faith, nor has any other Christian Brother I've known. If anything, Masonry has strengthened and enhanced my faith, and again this is a pattern I've seen to be repeated in the testimony of my Brethren throughout history. Masonry's mission is not to make sinners into good men. That's the job of a Church, or more accurately, of God.

Here's a question for you:
Is it ok for an organization to have as its stated goal to "...bring together the Baha'i, Hindu-Jain, Islamic, Jewish, Latter-day Saints, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sikh and Zoroastrian faith communities ... to promote dialogue, understanding and a sense of community among persons of different faiths and to work cooperatively for social and economic justice ..."?

What would you say of an organization which has as its stated vision to bring together "Very diverse religious traditions ... [which] are deeply committed to pray, dialogue and work together ... to help create a truly human community - dedicated to justice for all and compassionate care for those in need; a community where the religious, governmental, business, civic, educational and media sectors work together for the common good; and a society where the needs of the community balance the wants of individuals."

"...We come together because our love for God and humanity inspires it; our concern for justice, freedom and peace demands it; and what we can learn from each other requires it. Baha'i, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Latter-day Saints, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sikh and Zoroastrian, through our collaboration ... we intend to be a symbol of moral unity in a broken world."

This is as good a description as I've seen of Masonry.

You have a problem with such an organization?

DD

Oh dear, I've upset the proud and nobel Dedicated_Dad. Sorry about that.

So let's talk about the man many call Jesus. What is your understanding about him? Where is he now, is he hiding someplace?

You're not equipped to "upset" me. Another weak and childish diversionary attempt.

You've been asked some very specific questions. I'd appreciate some answers.

DD

Is it ok for an organization to have as its stated goal to "...bring together the Baha'i, Hindu-Jain, Islamic, Jewish, Latter-day Saints, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sikh and Zoroastrian faith communities ... to promote dialogue, understanding and a sense of community among persons of different faiths and to work cooperatively for social and economic justice ..."?

No it is not ok because that is not the job of an organization to do. Just as soon as you call something an organization, you will see me head for the door. Sorry, but you don't see where I'm headed with this....do you?

What would you say of an organization which has as its stated vision to bring together "Very diverse religious traditions ... [which] are deeply committed to pray, dialogue and work together ... to help create a truly human community - dedicated to justice for all and compassionate care for those in need; a community where the religious, governmental, business, civic, educational and media sectors work together for the common good; and a society where the needs of the community balance the wants of individuals."

It sounds all nice (minus any goose bumps) and such but I beg to ask, just who or what is deciding to do such noble work under a veil of secrecy? Does that make any sense to you? I would also prefer to see this happen but not when done as part of an organization. I too am part of a similar “system” which shares a similar goal but I dare not call it an organization.

"...We come together because our love for God and humanity inspires it; our concern for justice, freedom and peace demands it; and what we can learn from each other requires it. Baha'i, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Latter-day Saints, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sikh and Zoroastrian, through our collaboration ... we intend to be a symbol of moral unity in a broken world."

Only to what end will this peace be created and to what expense? What will be lost to those who chose not to accept this merging?

This is as good a description as I've seen of Masonry.

You have a problem with such an organization?

I am not like Professor Carol Quigley who is close to its instruments. But I agree with him that something this important should not choose to remain hidden. I also dislike any organization tinkering with religion. Reminds me of how man thinks he can play God and save the forest, yet in the end he always manages to screw it up more than it already is.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Clearly the nazi party was also an anti-masonic conspiracy.

this is an interesting point. smedley butler maintained that those that approached him were hardcore fascists. industrialists and high government officials in the u.s. prior to the outbreak of wwII were very admiring of mussolini's italy and funded the fledgling nazi party (prescott bush was fined for this). if this secret cabal were to be of fascist origin it would make sense that they would continue a hate campaign against freemasonry.

Originally posted by markusjharper
...Just as soon as you call something an organization, you will see me head for the door. Sorry, but you don't see where I'm headed with this....do you?

Nope. No surprise there though, huh?
[quote... I would also prefer to see this happen but not when done as part of an organization. I too am part of a similar “system” which shares a similar goal but I dare not call it an organization.

Yeah. I see what you mean -- Organization:
"A group of persons organized for a particular purpose; an association: a benevolent organization. A structure through which individuals cooperate..."

I can see why you'd want to avoid that...

BTW, that bans your participation in lots of things.

For the record, the quotes I posted came from The InterFaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington -- no doubt an evil organization, that.

I am not like Professor Carol Quigley who is close to its instruments.

Another tangent? Did Mommy forget to give you your medicine again?

Please explain how this person relates to this topic in any way. On second thought, never mind. I'm still trying to figure out what you were before you "changed your name to become human"

I also dislike any organization tinkering with religion.

Yeah -- wouldn't want anyone to encourage "dialogue, understanding and a sense of community among persons of different faiths."

You'd prefer ignorance, bigotry, hatred, war and death, huh?

Thanks for clearing that up...

DD

It's really quite simple:

I disapprove of any organization that would endeavor to grant themselves the authority to combine different religions together, as if those very organizations have the understanding necessary to place them together and merge it all harmoniously. Not to mention the constant interfering with public policy to achieve this goal. Do you realize that to achieve the goal of mergence there is no better way then to create fear and war? What do we see happening everywhere around us now, Mason? Do we not now see:

ONE government,
One Lodge, one religion UCC (call it whatever)
One currency,
And one bank,
One tongue,
And the list goes on and on.

I am tired of this and most people are too! Do you get it yet, Mason? Why can’t you accept that we want things to remain special by being interdependent? If you want to bring together Muslims and Christians and Jews and Hindu’s etc and they are not ready to meet together, then find a way to bring them together outside of an organization. I know many, many ways more suited for such purposes that do not require an organization; as they ALWAYS tend to get infiltrated – not excluding the churches however, but they don’t call themselves a secret society either, do they?

It’s like gun control, for you do not create an environment in secret to disarm people without them knowing but rather you allow that person’s conscious mind to decide that guns are not a good thing. I’d rather go to a church or Mosque and then next to a Temple and then go play soccer but with no secret societies involved. What is the point of an all-in-ONE lodge that offers all the fruity flavors mashed together? Don’t mess around in people’s religion - just continue to mess around and you'll not like the consequences.


[edit on 27-11-2005 by markusjharper]

Originally posted by markusjharper
It's really quite simple:

I disapprove of any organization that would endeavor to grant themselves the authority to combine different religions together, as if those very organizations have the understanding necessary to place them together and merge it all harmoniously. Not to mention the constant interfering with public policy to achieve this goal. Do you realize that to achieve the goal of mergence there is no better way then to create fear and war? What do we see happening everywhere around us now, Mason?

I see you imposing your beliefs on others, granting yourself the right to interpret the words of God in your own peculiar way. I see a radical who would defame and menace to spread thier belief. I see men/women like this defaming, mudering and lying across the world. I see a decline in social responsibility and a decline in acceptable behavior due to lies like yours. What do you see?

Originally posted by markusjharper
It's really quite simple:

I disapprove of any organization that would endeavor to grant themselves the authority to combine different religions together,

May I ask why? What's wrong with bringing people of different religious persuasions together. Doesn't that make the world a better place?

I am tired of this and most people are too! Do you get it yet, Mason?

Most People? Who are you to say they are not ready to meet together.
Can you describe some better ways to bring them together outside an organization? I'm sorry I find this all very confusing. Here's an organization bringing people from all walks of life together, and you say it's a bad thing.
Religious division is a huge cause of a lot of the worlds problems.

I'm not a mason BTW.



[edit on 27-11-2005 by madhatter]

Originally posted by markusjharper
I am tired of this and most people are too! Do you get it yet, Mason? Why can’t you accept that we want things to remain special by being interdependent? If you want to bring together Muslims and Christians and Jews and Hindu’s etc and they are not ready to meet together, then find a way to bring them together outside of an organization.

I think you'll find that it's voluntary to join the Masons (should they accept you) so no-one is forced against their will. Are you saying that people should not have the right to make their own choices and only live by your rules and standards?

I know many, many ways more suited for such purposes that do not require an organization; as they ALWAYS tend to get infiltrated – not excluding the churches however, but they don’t call themselves a secret society either, do they?

Mason's don't call themselves a 'secret society' it's people on the outside that tend to give that innaccurate definition.
They call themselves a fraternal organisation unless you suddenly know better than they do?

Basically from what I can see you are saying that people should not have the right to chose to belong to an organisation such as this because you don't agree with it.

Can you see there is something fundamentally wrong with that?

I have to throw in for a moment.

I have many friends here, and due to the magic of today's technology, I can even talk to them through the internet! These people have different beliefs, see the world from different angles and through different glasses. Still, we have many things in common, and because we enjoy each others' positive points and can ignore those with which we do not agree, we are able to share common goals. These people to whom I prefer are international and not just in my general area. I even know one of them to be (egad!) a high-ranking grand-poo-bah type Mason! Guess what? He's really a good guy, and I don't think he's took part in any human sacrifices in over an entire MONTH!!

It'd blow your mind, but earlier today, I was on the phone with a guy who is an athiest. Check this out - he's married to a Budhist! Talk about freakin' diversity, as this here's a Christian who is pounding on the keyboard at this time.

I'd prefer that everyone accept Christ as their savior, but guess what, that is their choice - God gave it to them, and we don't have the right to beat them up over it. What we ought to do is pray for them, if we really are Christians.

Meanwhile, I have plenty of friends around here in my home town who are ring-knockers, and if they want to go hang out in a lodge, drink beer and practice secret handshakes, that is totally ok with me, and I assure you, these guys are absolutley no danger to the world.

I can understand an issue markusj. is refereing to.

There's a big and important difference between learning to love and understand your neighbour, work/classmate etc. of different faiths, through one on one contact on a personal, everyday level and that of homoginizing them into One Faith.

Just like the call for a world of "coffee coloured people", it has the ultimate effect of devalueing all, by making the differences, that makes us all who we are, less important than fitting into the designated norm.

I'm an Australian 'Wog' who lives in a heavily mason influenced city that, as recently as a decade ago, "boasted" in public media investment recruiting ads, of the fact that it's population was only 10% non-Anglo/Saxon. Rather than bringing people together, the 'brotherhood' still makes it hard for 'wogs' and other non Anglos to 'make it' here.

I will add that this is the perspective of someone who's family covers every continant, colour and major faith in the world.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
I'm an Australian 'Wog' who lives in a heavily mason influenced city that, as recently as a decade ago, "boasted" in public media investment recruiting ads, of the fact that it's population was only 10% non-Anglo/Saxon. Rather than bringing people together, the 'brotherhood' still makes it hard for 'wogs' and other non Anglos to 'make it' here.

You'll find that it isn't the masons who are responsible for any segregation in your area. In fact, if you go down to your local Lodge you will in all likelihood find many people of different ethnic backgrounds. Your accusation is totally without foundation.
Freemasonry belongs to no colour. There are Lodges all over the world with members from all races. It is not a "whiteman's club". In fact, part of the reason fundamentalist anti-masons dislike Freemasonry is because people from different religions can sit down together in peace. With a different religion normally comes a different skin colour.

As for Australia itself? I have a lot of family there. The racism comes from society itself and not from Freemasonry.

You're missing the point. I didn't say racism came from masonry, just that despite the heavy masonic influence in local business, they did less than nothing to support those not of their ilk.

Even when the service, quality and price was the best in town, our local, 'right white', brotherhood would choose their own instead. Their right, I know, but when the community follows their lead, because they represent wisdom, morality, money and power, it effectively works against harmony and understanding.

I don't see why you can't accept that these local lodges fail in uniting different colours and cultures when masons often state that lodges around the world have their own local 'flavour'. These just happen to be sour to the point of acidic when it comes to making 'certain' people welcome.

Come on, can you at least admit that masons are human, with human failings, and some just fail more than others.

All I am doing is offering you some insight into why so many people have a dislike of masonry. You can ignor it but wouldn't addressing it constructively be more to your benefit?

[edit on 27-11-2005 by suzy ryan]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
...Even when the service, quality and price was the best in town, our local, 'right white', brotherhood would choose their own instead....

You seem to be alleging more than this, however -- rather alleging that the non-Mason businesses had better service, better quality and better price, yet Masons spent more money to purchase lower quality products and services from Masons.

Speaking only for myself, this does not ring true for me. If "service, quality and price" were all equal I would personally choose to do business with a person I knew to be a Mason, and I would do so for reasons other than those you probably think. (More on this below) What you describe is different, and tantamount to financial suicide.

...can you at least admit that masons are human, with human failings, and some just fail more than others. ...

I will -- an am confident others will as well. In any group of humans, substandard individuals will be found. Generally less so in Masonry, due to the careful investigation process that precedes admission, and the higher standards it sets for its members.

In my personal experience, the worst *group* behaviour I've seen was the "work" of a(n allegedly "Christian") church. Being an independent Baptist congregation, there was nothing that could be done about it. Had it been a Masonic Lodge there would have been recourse. (Again, more on this below)

*Please note that I am not saying "churches are bad" -- obviously it would be ridiculous for me to judge all Christians, Baptist churches, Baptists or Churches based on the behaviour of this bunch of idiots. It should be noted however that it is equally ridiculous to judge "Masons" (or for that matter any other group) based on the behaviour of an individual or even a local "group."

Above I've twiced referenced the subject of "recourse" and promised "more." Here goes:

Masons are held to a higher standard. If it can be proven that a Brother is not conducting his affairs in an ethical manner, his Lodge, the Grand Lodge, (or both) will punish him through censure, suspension or expulsion. The records of my Grand Lodge jurisdiction shows a case of such expulsion nearly every year.

We don't want scumbags out there besmirching the good name of our Fraternity, and will deal with such men quickly and decisively when they are found. Contrary to the lies that are propagated, it matters not whether said scumbag mistreated a Brother or another, what matters is the expectation that "that the honor, glory and reputation of the Institution may be firmly established, and the world at large convinced of its good effects." If a man's behavior opposes that goal, we'll get rid of him quick.

If you can provide evidence that a Lodge of Masons is conducting itself as a "'right white', brotherhood" then I would appreciate your doing so. I will personally see to it that said evidence comes to the attention of their Grand Lodge, who (if their investigation warrants it) will without doubt pull their Lodge's Charter and expel any members complicit in such reprehensible behaviour.

If you cannot provide evidence, I'd appreciate your qualifying ("It seemed as if..." "It looked to me like..." etc.) such accusations in the future.

Hope this helps!

DD