Home defense recomendations

If I own other guns, damn straight I'm worried about my posessions. Fine, whatever, you your M4 in the house. You're on your own with that one, since the concensus is definitely shotgun and sidearm.

DE

Whatever man! You want to save the guns first thats up to you.
The thing is people havent made up their minds about it, one lady said that she would rather use a .22 winchester than a shotgun! what does that say?
Most people havent had used an M4 thats why their is bias towards it but I have and I can vouch for it.

I have shot a Canadian C7 before, a M16 clone, a reasonable weapon yes, but the peep-sights are not really great for home-defense scenerio's, and the M4 you have to worry about the telescopic stock as well, many shotguns with stock you can shoulder immediatly.

Who says AKs will be automatic? I don't know where you live but in the US and most other countries, guns are limited to semi-auto ONLY, in England you can't have a semi-auto over .22LR.

I prefer to have open sights in defense situations.

an M4 might work in counterstrike, but not in real life buddy unless you are in a warzone.

Quote: Apart from the wild recoil of shotguns, their very shot is not accurate and as a rule are built to be awkward to handle and cumbersome.

I have to disagree with you. Federal has a tactical buckshot load that is very lethal (4" grouping @ 25yds, that's with 8 .32 dia.pellets), and the felt recoil is reduced by 45%. Federal also makes a Tactical slug load (that's 1oz. of rifled lead) with the same reduced recoil. At 50 yds., I can empty my 870 Remington within 1 minute and put, 7 1oz. pieces of lead through an area no bigger than a paper plate. My shotgun is equipped with a pistol grip stock and ghost ring sights, I'll put it up against any legal-meaning semi-automatic AR anyday, inside of 50yds. Which falls within the range of home defense.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by nightbreid]

Here is an excellent link about home-defense and what weapon to use.

Kudos to a board member on my forum.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I have shot a Canadian C7 before, a M16 clone, a reasonable weapon yes, but the peep-sights are not really great for home-defense scenerio's, and the M4 you have to worry about the telescopic stock as well, many shotguns with stock you can shoulder immediatly.

This was what I meant as bias towards the M4.
The M4 is much smaller than the M16 and much lighter, also way more easy to handle. Most people have this impression that once you say M4 they automatically think M16 but smaller. It isnt an accurate picture.
Agreed that they are very much similar in most aspects but the whole feel is different than an M16, you dont need to shoulder it anymore for CQB why would you? Do you consider a target at say >50yards to be CQB? because anybody will be able to shoot without shouldering below that range. so you wouldnt need to use the sight would you ?
Why would one worry about the stock ? Its not like you are going to shoulder it inside the house is it? Also if the stock is collapsed it will be easier to handle than a shotgun that would weigh 3-4 times the weight of the M4.

Who says AKs will be automatic? I don't know where you live but in the US and most other countries, guns are limited to semi-auto ONLY, in England you can't have a semi-auto over .22LR.

When I say auto, it doest mean automatic like machine gun sense but rather in the self-loading sense. Anyway its not like its too hard to change the trigger on an AK is it ?

I prefer to have open sights in defense situations.

Where do you live that you need to take out intruders by using the sight. If you say live on a ranch or some such place(The white house!) and need that kind of "protection" I would suggest that you pick up one of them bolt action rifles, say the Remington 700 or the 504 or if you can afford it the Savage 110 .

an M4 might work in counterstrike, but not in real life buddy

unless you are in a warzone.

Counterstrike ??
Have you ever fired an M4 ? You say that the M4 would work only in a warzone but the AK is okay for home defense?
Is that even remotely logical ?
Personally, i would never use an M4 in any warzone! The M4 is trerrible for ranged combat as compared to the M16A2 or the M14 or any of the other better guns out there. Heck even the AK would be better than an M4 in a warzone. Anybody who has handled guns would tell you that. Plus the M4 has much less penetration and range than an M16 what use would it be other than to check for mines!
The only reason I recommend an M4 for CQB is because the M4 is the best for that kind of shooting. Inside 300mts it is invincible!

Originally posted by nightbreid
I have to disagree with you. Federal has a tactical buckshot load that is very lethal (4" grouping @ 25yds, that's with 8 .32 dia.pellets), and the felt recoil is reduced by 45%.

As I have said before in another post in this same topic, who would specifically put these rounds unless they were gun savy ? Most would just get what ever they can find on the shelf and is cheap.
Heck, you can modify the shotgun enough to pretty much use it for anything but thats not the point is it. They are looking for a gun that even a novice can use effectively without much difficulty and still save his and his families lives.

At 50 yds., I can empty my 870 Remington within 1 minute and put, 7 1oz. pieces of lead through an area no bigger than a paper plate.
[edit on 7-12-2005 by nightbreid]

Well, good for you!! You are either rigorously trained or have some uncanny gift with shotguns!

Like I said, I fired a C-7.



In full auto too.

I mentioned the AK has home-defense to be a less expensive alternative to the AR-15.

And good luck shooting your M4 unshouldered, you'll guaranteed miss if fired from the hip unless you are really good at shooting from that position, even from short distances it's hard to aim a weapon without using a site, even a kid with a red-ryder could probably tell ya that.

I actually never played CS before, I just mentioned that since many of them fanboys think it's a realistic simulation or something.

What is your bias towards the M4? what is REALLY so great about it besides looking "cool"? unless you mean a Benelli M4 shotgun which would be a reasonable choice

It is in My opinion, that you should seek out the Glock 17 (name of gun company, & model number) 9mm.

It is a sturdy & reliable weapon, & the choice of most Law Enforcement Officers today. You can drop it, drown it in a river, & it will still fire faithfully.

Mine cost just under $600, & I love it. It's lightweight, reliable, & easy to use, clean, & disassemble.

The rounds are easily accessible, you can get them at Wal-Mart in Sporting Goods. You won't need Hollow-Point rounds like I do, just ask for Full Metal Jacket rounds (9mm, usually Winchester brand at Wal-Mart).

For a box of 100 rounds, it's usually around $12 or less at Wal-Mart.

Something to consider before you purchase this beauty, there is NO safety on this gun. That's because you're supposed to use your brain, & think about the consequences of putting your finger in the trigger guard.

I am going into Police Academy in the Fall of next year, & highly recommend this gun for home safety. It's not too big for a woman, & it's not hard to use for anyone, man or woman. I will say this, you need some Gun Range time, to make sure you're used to

A : The noise

B : Firing it at all

C : The fact that it does damage

Follow the Gun Ranges rules, & take this as serious as a heart attack, it is NOT a toy. Guns do not kill people, people kill people with guns, & stupid people can kill just as easily as intelligent people, by not being responsible.

DO NOT, ever point a unloaded/loaded weapon at anyone, unless you intend to kill that person. An unloaded weapon is not a joke either.

I remember being 6 years old, & My step-father handed Me a 22 rifle, & not knowing better, turned around not paying attention like any stupid 6 year old & pointed it in the area My step-father was in....He yanked it out out of My hands & knocked Me flat on the ground & screamed His head off at Me the same stuff I just typed in the last few lines.

I never forgot it, & never will.

[edit on 9-12-2005 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
And good luck shooting your M4 unshouldered, you'll guaranteed miss if fired from the hip unless you are really good at shooting from that position,

Below 20 yards? Why would you need a sight for something so close ?
The general point is that you can use it to be underarm fired instead of sight fired as in case of a M16. That is why it can be used for CQB. It was designed to be used in CQB for the military.
Tactically firing from an underarm position indoors is much better than firing from a sight, everybody knows that. You have both your eyes open can adjust your fire accordingly. Plus inside buildings the best way is to fire rapidly than picking your targets with a sight and then firing. Ofcourse if you are part of a team of people and then want to repel an intruder it would be best to sight the M4-stock retracted- than underarm firing. But as in most cases you are alone or the only one with a weapon ready. In such cases it is very important that you keep both your eyes open at all times so that you can concentrate more on the surroundings than on the sight itself. Indoors any target would be easily visible and a prime target for underarm firing as is the way it should be done.
One doesnt need to be "good" at shooting from an underarm position or a hip position to hit something as big as a person below 20 yards, he needs to be able to see him and press the trigger. That is all, as I have said before the M4 is very well balanced and handy to use.
If you are going to shoulder a shotgun and fire indoors then I hope you never have to do so as you most certainly will get killed doing that. You need to keep your field of vision clear of any obstacles in such situations and shouldering will only minimise your chances of survival.

I actually never played CS before, I just mentioned that since many of them fanboys think it's a realistic simulation or something.

I am sorry I'm not one of those people, I've been handling weapons all my life and an active member in the NRA.

What is your bias towards the M4? what is REALLY so great about it besides looking "cool"?

The M4 doesnt look 'cool' to me. Infact their is no 'cool' in shooting a weapon at somebody at all. It is a VERY serious thing and its not how it looks that matters but how good you are with the weapon.
I am not biased towards the M4 at all, I understand its strenghts and I understand its weakneses as well, I dont deny that the M4 has some problems but I wont deny that it is the best in some areas as well. I have already told you some reasons as to why the M4 would not make a good field weapon and I think I would know because I happen to own one.
The M4 is undoubtably very usefull in CQB and was designed specifically for such situations, hence the shorter barrel and the collapsible stock.
As for the Ak, cheaper or not, it still is too big to be used indoors for any reason.


[edit on 9-12-2005 by IAF101]

AK with full stock: 870mm
M4 with stock collapsed: 757mm, 838 fully extended.

That's a few CM's difference, and shooting it under your arm? not something i'd recommened, are we talking a full auto M4 here or semi-auto?

and in a defense situation i'd be aiming for vitals, you can just throw your shots all over the place if you like and pray you hit something, i'd only shoot in such a manner in a emergency that I purely have no time to aim, which is unlikely in a home-defense situation.

BTW, you are from the UK I see, chances are you NEVER touched a Semi-Auto under .22lr, are you counting Airsoft?

[edit on 9/12/2005 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
AK with full stock: 870mm
M4 with stock collapsed: 757mm, 838 fully extended.

so 32cms is not enought ?? Plus you forget to take the weight into consideration, and M4 is just 3kgs where as teh Ak is 4.3 kg's without the clip.

That's a few CM's difference, and shooting it under your arm? not something i'd recommened, are we talking a full auto M4 here or semi-auto?

by full auto if you man self loading semi automatic then thats what I am talkin about as well .
Yeah shooting it underarm which is the preffered way to deal with close quarters situations.

and in a defense situation i'd be aiming for vitals, you can just throw your shots all over the place if you like and pray you hit something,

Unless you have a visual problem I dont think youneed to pray to hit something less than 20 yards ahead is there ? Aiming for the vitals is pretty crazy thing to do when you are confronted by multiple men with guns in a closed space. It would be best to just shoot at them than make an effort to find their vitals.

BTW, you are from the UK I see, chances are you NEVER touched a Semi-Auto

under .22lr, are you counting Airsoft?

Airsoft ??
What makes you think I am from the UK ??
I am from Michigan which is in the US anyway.
If I have an M4 how does tht mean I havent touched a Semi-auto ??


[edit on 9-12-2005 by IAF101]

I believe the person asking for advice was asking about something to protect themselves from burgulars & would-be thieves, not protection to make themselves like Fort Knox.

I'll admit, I have a lot more than a 9mm to protect Myself, but a simple defense is the best defense.

Glock 17, 9mm handgun is easily concealable, & easy to use & maintain.

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by PaddyInf
If you think that 8rds of 12ga. isn't a deterent then you are on a different planet! Have you ever seen the damage that a single round of #4 12ga. will do to the human body? I have. It's horriable, especially at ranges of

In Canadia, having a rifle with a magazine capacity of over five rounds (ten in some cases) is actually a federal firearm offence. The max is ten rounds in a magazine for pistols. Yes, Magazines can be pinned, but it's a pain to deal with. Also, the M16/M4 is banned here...like a lot of things.

A shotgun is definitely a lot easier to get, and won't have the ETF knocking on your door all polite like. Also, it won't cost an arm and a leg and another leg.

DE

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Putting 5.56 rounds all over the place is going to be difficult to justify if it actually comes to shooting someone. 5.56 is a fairly good round at close range, but it is designed for medium range engagements. 12ga is designed to be effective at ranges of less than 25m, and will expend the majority of its' KE at these ranges. 5.56 DOES over penetrate at close range, even with specialist ammo.

The 5.56 will definitely over penetrate the inner walls of a house no question that, but the outer walls being made of brick or in an apartment made of concrete blocks, the 5.56 would most certainly be stopped.
I agree that the Shotgun would have better KE potential at closer ranges but the fact that you have to cock it for every round and you have a mere 7-10 shots is a bit discouraging compared to a pistol or a rifle .
The 5.56 is very good at medium range but the as for stopping power you have many more rounds at disposal and instead of a single shotgun round you could compensate it with 3-4 5.56 rounds from a rifle .

As for accuracy, even a dirt cheap bog-standard shotgun is accurate enough for this type of engagement at realistic home defense ranges. The recoil of a shotgun isn't as bad as you suggest. With more conventional #7 shot, a shotgun is easily controlled and still very effective.

The range is not the factor as clearly in home defense the ranges are

First off, 5.56 WILL cut through brick and concrete. In Iraq we used Minimis to cut small mouseholes through concrete walls in order to let us post in grenades. Also, most modern homes are of a lower build quality than older ones, and as such tend to have thinner walls.

I have noted that you have stated that in order to compensate for the lower close-range stopping power of 5.56 you advocate firing a number of rounds (you state 3-4rds). By this rationale, the weapon will only be able to engage a smaller number of adversaries before running out of ammunition (10 targets for 3rd bursts, 7-8 with 4rd bursts). This reduces the power of the 'I can take out 20 people in one go' argument, which in itself is fairly irrelavent.

Second, my point is that a single shotgun round will stop an intruder more efficiently than a 5.56mm, even when loaded with lighter hunting loads. A burst of 5.56 will stop an intruder, certainly, but from a legal perspective it is easier to justify a single shot than several. You will also look a lot better in court if 'exhibit A' is a shotgun as opposed to an M4, which most of the jury who are not 'gun people' will probably see as a 'machine gun'. Machine guns are not particularly PC in the eyes of the public unfortunately. I know these are not the things that are going through your mind during the deed, but there will be little else on your mind when you're in the dock getting grilled by the baddies family brief.

This is all part of the decision process when choosing a home defense weapon, because if you plug someone, you WILL be standing tall before the man in the silly wig trying to justify your actions. You'll be up there thinking to yourself "I wish i'd listened to that Paddy fella, he really knew what he was talking about. He was also dashingly handsome, suave and sophisticated and hung like a man with three legs". OK, I made that last bit up, but you get my meaning.

Each to there own, but I'll stick with my 12ga and P5C thanks!

in my opinion for what that might be worth, The 12 gauge mossberg 870 super express magnum is a very strong deterent against basically all house hold problems.

Paddys logic is sound.
Shotguns ...pound for pound are reasonable..both in price and practicality.

Here in the Americas contrary to popular cowboy misconception the average homesteader out west did not carry rifles daily in thier chores..they carried shotguns. Mind you now many of them were the olde muzzle loading type but they were effective close up...very effective.
The shotgun also is economical and has a wide variety of ammunition types from which one can make thier selection. A huge plus going for it. You cannot say this about the M4 series of rifles or something like a Styer Aug. For many peoples costs are a huge factor in planning a home defense weapon. This factor alone leaves out most handguns ..much less these high velocity rifles. Shotgun ..olde man...Shotgun!!

Thanks,
Orangetom

I'd really like to have this for home defense. It's smaller than a P90 but more deadly.

H&K's PDW/MP7

[edit on 12-12-2005 by NWguy83]