Where the heck are the terrorists?

Iraq is no different than Nazi Germany. We defeated their army and rebuilt their country. Only difference is half the middle east believe we are Zionists and are fighting for a cause that is spread through lies. If there weren't any terrorists right now the country would be having elections with no interference and we could spend all these billions on infrastructure instead of tanks. We are not installing democracy at gunpoint. I don't see any of the people voting doing it in fear of the US, they are coming out in droves to do it because they want a say in their countrys affairs.

Originally posted by rstrik
It absolutely does give him a better perspective, seeing what the television wants you to see and seeing life with you own eyes is entirely different. What is a better effect watching the Sun set or someone telling you about it. Same thing.

Ah, but that's what people thought a few hundred years ago, and then after some calculations and thought, some scientists realised that the sun doesn't set, the earth spins which makes it look like the sun moves, which it does not. Appearances can be deceiving. Seeing it set does not tell you what is truly happening, just as being on the front lines does not necessarily mean you understand the situation. Again I refer to the Nazis - they were convinced that they were fighting for a just and righteous cause, and that their actions were necessary to secure a better future for Germany. It did not matter where you were, what was perceived by the majority was not what was happening at all, which was just mass murder in to enrich and empower a few psychopathic elite.

Unlike Nazi Germany, given the resource of the internet, today more people are able to see what back then only a few could see - that this is just an illegal invasion to subdue a nation and enrich and empower a few psychopathic rulers, in this case, the US rulers.

There were over 30 people on the ballot for elections for president, did we hand pick and choose them? No. The person we wanted elected didn't even get half the votes. An Iranian friendly president is NOT what we wanted. The people elected him, he was not appointed by the US.

Example:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Quote: Defence Secretary John Reid said no warrant had been received - and British personnel were immune from Iraqi laws.
"The MoD has not received any arrest warrant relating to any British personnel in Iraq," he said. "
"Iraqi law is very clear: British forces remain subject to British jurisdiction."

Do you wonder who made that law? Here's a hint: it wasn't the Iraqis.

Yeah that's it! Spend billions for public relations, I doubt that seriously. If we were worried about "maintaining appearences" we would have waited for UN approval.

No we wouldn't, as we'd never get it. What we want is to invade whomever we wish and then make it look like we're still the good guys.

Ok history major, what leader has the US assassinated in the last 20 years?

It's generally not a leader directly assassinated by US, but US sponsoring, training, and providing weapons for groups to overthrow or kill leaders or other groups that are not friendly to US in some way. Have you forgotten that we sold weapons to the sam Saddam that is supposed to be the "bad guy" now all of a sudden, for example?

Umm China and Russia have been standing up to the US for years. And what other nation have we taken over?

In 1981 The CIA sold arms to Iran, uses the profits to arm the Contras fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. The CIA's Freedom Fighter's Manual disbursed to the Contras includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination.

In 1983 The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras' notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA's full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

Let's not forget the recent invasion of Afghanistan using the premise that it was somehow involved or had anything to do with 911. All evidence and logic shows that 911 was an event created and executed by US and Israeli agencies, and the muslims are simply the "false flag" scapegoats.

Oh I agree, we didn't fail - we invaded and took over Iraq just fine, it doesn't look like we messed up. Though if/when we try the same thing with Iran, the risk is much higher.

Stay on topic

This is on topic, the topic is "Where the heck are the terrorists?" and so anything to do with US's actions that involve the excuse of "terrorism" seems to be on topic. And it seems that Iran is indeed our next target for invasion and takeover, if we can manage it.

Funny that we're the ones causing all the casualties...

typical liberal blindness to the fact, yes we have killed civilians, yes the terrorists kill them daily. What is the difference? We don't target them.

Our aim must be terrible then, becasue we kill FAR more innocent civilians than all terrorists in the history of the world combined. And yes we do target them, we invaded their country and now are killing them in droves because they are picking up weapons to defend their nation and to drive out the hostile invaders (us). So our fight is with the Iraqi people, and just becasue we call them "insurgents" and "terrorists" doesn't change the fact that they are protecting their children, their homes, and their lives. We have murdered thousands of innocent children, and injured thousands more. Would you like to see some pictures of all that people we didn't "target" who ended up dead or dying anyway?

You tell this to the crying mothers, and to the dead and dying families who were slaughtered by US forces. Perhaps our aim is just realllly bad?

www.robert-fisk.com...

But more than that, we're carelessly attacking anything that moves, anything we even SUSPECT is a threat in any way - and the vast majority of the casualties are innocent civilans that we thought were "terrorists".

Tell the Kurds and Shiites they were free.

They were free from US occupation. They were free from being slaughtered left and right and blown up by US forces who "do not target them". They were free from having laws imposed on them by a foreign invader. They had water and electricity!

Why did we sell weapons and promote mass slaughter to the same people, 20 years ago, that we now claim are "evil" and choose to invade? Why do we think we have the right to decide what system of government a country can have? Since when are we the "global police"? And how exactly is it "liberation" when you invade a country, murder thousands, occupy it indefinitely, impose your own rules and laws and curfew and regulation, shatter the infrustructure of the country, and basically create more death and chaos than the country ever imagined?

And you think the elections were real? Do you realise that they did not even know who they were voting for, but only the party the candidate represented, in order to protect the candidate? Do you realise that the people never choose the candidate, they simply vote for one out of a few that are "presented" to them? Out of 300,000,000 people in US, do you think Bush Jr. was simply the best candidate for president? Or do you think he was simply the one with the connections, power, and money to have the best chance?

We don't even have a democracy or free elections in US, what chance do you think there is that we'd be able to establish a democracy elsewhere?

wow amazing. "They were free before we invaded" have you completely blinded yourself with the hatred of Bush to realize what Saddam did to his people?

Have you blinded yourself with your love for Bush to realise what Bush did to Iraqi people, and that he killed far more innocent Iraqis than Saddam ever dreamed of?

Gasing his own people is free?

Who said that? He never gassed his own people, that's just US propaganda.

Show me any evidence that he gassed his own people.

Rape and torture chambers and mass graves are free?

US constantly tortures and detains people illegally as well, and has a practice of sending them to countries like Egypt where torture is legal, if it cannot torture them in US. And again, Guantenamo and Abu Ghraib come to mind.

The people did try to rise up against Saddam after the first Gulf War, you know what happened? He used Nerve and Mustard gas on them and left them in the streets dead.

That's not what I heard. Give me any evidence that this is not just more US government propaganda, just more lies created to demonize Saddam.

Where are your facts? What "fascist dictatorships" are you speaking of?

Here's a quote for a few examples:
"that in 1942, Prescott Bush, the current president’s grandfather, was called Hitler’s Angel by the New York Tribune; that in 1946, the OSS/CIA overthrew the Metakas government in Greece; that the U.S. gave at least $60 million to bring to power the former Nazi intelligence network of General Reinhard Gehlen in the first decade following World War II to control the intelligence apparatus in West Germany; that in 1953, the U.S. overthrew the popular Mossadegh in Iran and installed the brutal Shah; that in 1954, the CIA overthrew the democratically-elected Arbenz government in Guatemala; that in 1957, the CIA financed the election of pro-American candidates to the Lebanese Parliament; that in 1964, the CIA gave $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chile; that in 1967, the CIA overthrew the democratically-elected government of George Papandreou and installed a military dictatorship; that in 1973, the CIA overthrew the second oldest democracy in the western hemisphere in Chile; that in 1975, the CIA destabilized and forced the dissolution of the Labor government under Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in Australia; that in 1976, the CIA attempted to overthrow Michael Manley’s government in Jamaica."

From
www.onlinejournal.com...

How did we oppress Iraq even further? They can actually vote now, they are free to march in the streets to protest the US or anything else they want without dying, they can watch TV, they are free.

The infrustructure of the country is ruined, many areas have no water or electricity or gas. Iraqis are now in danger of being shot or blown up much more than they ever were, only since our invasion. Sure they can "protest" but who listens to them? The US people can protest all they want, but again, the government could care less, as they did during the massive protests against the way, before the invasion of Iraq.

They vote for people we choose for them, and we still decide who wins in the end just like we do here in US. Yes they can eat McDonalds and watch TV now, which is truly what "freedom" is all about, right? Who cares if civilans, including women and children are being murdered by foreign invaders, who cares if your government is now controlled by those foreign invaders, who cares if CIA and Mossad-sponsored false-flag suicide bombers keep blowing themselves up to justify further occupation, etc.

And now they can't march in the streets without dying, that's when they generally tend to be shot or disbursed with tear gas. And even if they manage to marge in the streets - what good does that do if no one cares or listens to anything they demand?

Iraq is no different than Nazi Germany. We defeated their army and rebuilt their country.

Iraq had no army to "defeat". It was not a war, but a systematic slaughter. Iraq is different than Nazi Germany - they posed no threat to US, they did not try to "take over the world" by systematically invading, occupying foreign nations.

Only difference is half the middle east believe we are Zionists and are fighting for a cause that is spread through lies.

We are controlled by Zionists, and we are fighting a cause that is based on all lies.

If there weren't any terrorists right now the country would be having elections with no interference and we could spend all these billions on infrastructure instead of tanks.

We spend it on tanks to fight the very people whose country we illegally invaded and now occupy. The "terrorists" are the Iraqi people who oppose our rule. The "terrorists" are also CIA and Mossad false flag agents who blow things up and blame it on muslims. Mossad is also known for creating fake Al Qaeda cells and pretending that it's "muslim extrimists" again, and have been caught doing this many times.

We are not installing democracy at gunpoint.

But we are there with guns trying to force them to accept our version of what we call "democracy". Are we not?

I don't see any of the people voting doing it in fear of the US, they are coming out in droves to do it because they want a say in their countrys affairs.

I see plenty of people fearing the US and hating the US and fighting the US oppression. I see plenty of people that are spreading truth in personal blogs that contradict the media lies that the government is spreading.

Interesting all this "terrorist" talk......

In Vietnam the US massacred 3.4 million innocents
In Laos & Cambodia the US massacred 750,000 innocents
In Panama: The US massacred 6,000 innocents
In Guatemala the US massacred 88,000 innocents
In Honduras the US massacred 184,000 innocents
In El Salvador the US massacred 122,000 innocents
In Iraq the US has massacred over 150,000 innocents (19,000 children)
In Afghanistan the US has massacred 38,000 (9,800 children)

At WTC Al-Queda massacred 2900 innocents

Question: Who are the real terrorists?

TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.

Next time we'll count the number of Arabs the Joo's have massacred over the past 54 years -vs- those Joos massacred by the Arabs - and talk once more about abject terrorism, OK?

Originally posted by TheAZCowBoy
Interesting all this "terrorist" talk......

In Vietnam the US massacred 3.4 million innocents
In Laos & Cambodia the US massacred 750,000 innocents
In Panama: The US massacred 6,000 innocents
In Guatemala the US massacred 88,000 innocents
In Honduras the US massacred 184,000 innocents
In El Salvador the US massacred 122,000 innocents
In Iraq the US has massacred over 150,000 innocents (19,000 children)
In Afghanistan the US has massacred 38,000 (9,800 children)

At WTC Al-Queda massacred 2900 innocents

Question: Who are the real terrorists?

TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.

Next time we'll count the number of Arabs the Joo's have massacred over the past 54 years -vs- those Joos massacred by the Arabs - and talk once more about abject terrorism, OK?

(sarcasm) But hey, all those hundreds of thousands of dead innocent men, women, and children is all ok - because we don't TARGET them! (/sarcasm)

So as long as your INTENTION is to kill "bad guys", then slaughtering thousands of innocents in the process is just collateral damage and doesn't count or matter, even if that collateral damage is far more than any terrorist that DOES target civilans could ever dream of doing. What an arrogant, dehumanizing, and psychopathic philosophy that is...

Also what is interesting is that people keep forgetting that we invaded because of WMD's, and NOT because Saddam is "bad" or because there may be "terrorists" there somewhere. Apparently that doesn't matter now, because any ruler that we deem "bad" for his people, even if we sponsored him when it suited us a few years earlier, we can overthrow and takeover his country and turn it into what we want it to be.

Isn't also curious that the more terrorists attack things, the more power it gives US, the more excuses it gives to US and Israel to takeover any nation and subjucate and oppress any people they claim are associated with the terrorists or "harbor" the terrorists, all in the name of "national security" and "freedom"? Makes you wonder, are these terrorists complete retards and don't understand that their actions completely backfire on them and the very people they represent and just give more and more power to their enemies while the terrorists themselves murder innocent civilans that have NOTHING to do with the policies of their government, or are these terrorists working for the very governments that claim to wage "war on terror"? Because their actions only benefit the very governments and nations they claim to be fighting.

Because historically, countries always used the tactic of "false flag operations", which means, kill a bunch of your own people and blame it on whoever you want the enemy to be, which demonises the enemy in the view of your people who in turn allows you to "retaliate" or invade the enemy, even if they had nothing to do with the initial murders to begin with. People are easily rallied and easily fooled when they don't expect their governments to provide them with proof, when they blindly trust their rulers.

But it becomes even more funny when the governments claim to speak FOR the terrorists and tell us WHY the terrorists do what they do, even if the terrorists themselves never said this, and never even insinuated it. For example, Bush and other US government members say that "they hate our freedoms" and yet no "terrorists" ever said anything like this, so how would Bush know, and if he does know, why doesn't he tell us how he knows? Even more, on certain released videos by those alleged terrorists (like the bin laden video in 2004 during bush's re-election), the terrorists themselves say that they are only doing this in retaliation for US foreign policies against the Muslims and Arabs. So how can our own government say "no, they are doing this because they hate our freedoms"? Do our governments know better what the terrorists want than the terrosits themselves? Does it make sense that terrorists would lie about their intentions? Because if they lied, it would contradict the very point of being a "terrorist", which implies using TERROR to scare people into complying with your DEMANDS. But if you have no demands, or if you lie about your demands, that makes all your actions senseless and utterly useless, except to benefit the governments of the people you attack who will use your actions against you and anyone else they want to scapegoat. If terrorists have no goal or demand, it is like signing a blank check, and giving the government the power to use their imagination and make up any reason for "why" the terrorists do what they do.

If you truly think about it, terrorism always had a goal that is possible to accomplish, which is almost always political in nature. In the case of Al Qaeda and other "terrorists" that our government claims exist now, it seems the terrorists we face (according to our government) have a goal that is actually IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish in the way that they are apparently attempting to do it - the more they attack US innocent people, the more power they give to our government, the more reasons they give for our government to invade the home nations of those "terrorists", kill their own people, and plunder their lands. So the terrorists must be complete idiots, and they play right into the government's hands by constantly shooting themselves in the foot, right?

However, can anyone that was able to plan (for at least MONTHS) and execute 911 and make the US government fail on every level for HOURS during the event, evade our entire multi-billion dollar intelligence during planning and execution of the event, evade all manner of security and perform 911... can anyone that did ALL THAT be an IDIOT with a senseless and impossible goal that is guaranteed to backfire entirely and only piss people off, and basically make the life of the terrorists and their own people a living hell? It makes aboslutely no sense to me, it seems that the terrorists are then a walking contradiction. They are good at blowing things up, terrible at actually accomplishing anything other than giving our government more power.

Yes, a bank robber can be an idiot. A random drive-by shooting can be done by idiots. But 911 could not have been and was NOT planned and executed by idiots, it was done with utmost genius and precision, ignoring even the fact that the government suspiciously co-operated DURING the event. It seems like if a group is secretive and powerful enough to do this, they are unlikely to completely misunderstand the way this world works, they are unlikely to have a goal that is impossible to accomplish and that only hurts THEM and their people, and only benefits the country that they attacked.

And what's more, why is it that if the terrorists really hate our freedoms and the government is fighting to protect our freedoms, that the government is enacting laws to take our freedoms away? How do you protect freedoms by removing them? Are they not doing exactly what they claim the terrorists want? Do you need to sacrifice your freedoms to be free? Anyone else see a contradiction here? It seems the government is able to pull of very many contradictions when the majority of the population does not use their mind, but blindly watches fox news and believes everythinig they see.

But fine, let's even assume that the terrorists ARE doing this for "fun", let's say they are Team Rocket from Pockemon - cause plenty of explosions and chaos in a vain attempt to rule the world, and yet horribly and utterly fail and in fact make their own enemies even more powerful in the process, and make themselves hated by the whole world and in turn stand NO CHANCE to rule the very world that they managed to turn against themselves. Does this not give the government the PERFECT enemy? Think about it - the government can now say, "there are people (terrorists/Team Rocket) all over the world, you never know who it may be or where, and these people just like to blow things up, and you never know who/when/where! BOOGA-BOOGA!@*&^@#"

And where is the proof? Well things ARE blowing up, 911 DID happen, other buildings and people did blow up and DIE! So does this prove that there is a network of terrorists in the world who hate freedom? No, it just proves that SOMEONE who obviously has much power wants these things blown up, and blew them up. The question remains - WHO and WHY? Who benefits? Is there any evidence to suggest who may be responsible? Is anyone trying to cover anything up here, or hide any evidence from people? Is anyone trying to convince everybody that the enemy is "that guy" or "that group" with very little or no evidence? Is anyone trying to make everyone ASSUME that they cannot possibly have anything to do with any of this? Is anyone trying to get more POWER as a result of these actions?

The problem with giving the government more POWER and limiting our civil liberties during times like these is because it rests on an inherent ASSUMPTION that the government is not responsible. However, if it is, then we're actually giving more power to the very people who murdered their own people in the first place, and actually making it much harder on ourselves to later kick them out or put them to jail, since now they have much more power. The only problem is, why do we let ourselves ASSUME and let the government convince us that it is "preposterous" that the government is responsible, when throughout history governments have consistently done JUST THAT, and that they have the biggest motive and benefit the most from this?

I love my country too, but I love what it stands for, I love the IDEA of the country, and patriotism does not mean supporting all actions of the government and believing everything they say. Unless that's what you think it means, anyway. This world has a chance to NOT turn into "NWO", but when people so easily buy into what their governments are constantly selling, that chance is very tiny indeed. But the possiblity is there, and as long as the possibility exists, you never know what may lead to it actualizing in a non-linear world such as ours. A butterfly CAN start a hurricane, but you never know which butterfly and which hurricane.

Most of all, I love the truth. And when a whole nation turns away from it, and turns "inwards" and is so busy with their lives and let their politicians sort out all the "bigger" problems without questioning them, either because they don't have TIME or simply trust them, that's when a nation turns into what Nazi Germany turned into.

People around the world don't hate American people, they hate American policies set by the government. Muslims also don't hate the JEWS, they hate the policies of ISRAEL that are dicated by the Zionists in power. Let's not confuse the PEOPLE of a nation and its government. Many muslims are conditioned to hate all Jews, that is true, but only because everything they KNOW of Jews is a result of the actions of the Zionists in power towards those people.

In America people may hate or fear or despise terrorists or "Al Qaeda", but the majority assume that Al Qaeda is anything more than a Mossad/CIA creation, they hope against hope that their governments are honest and truly want what's best for them, they hope against hope that terrorists are truly just freedom-hating extremists, and they hope-against-hope that their governments are truly fighting terrorists when they invade other nations and take away civil liberties back home.

Time to wake up and look at the evidence and use your own HEAD. An ICE AGE is right around the corner, a total economic collapse of US is also around the corner. There are so many things that are upcoming that will make it extremely difficult to access any information, and will leave people isolated with little or no communication at the mercy of their governments and the military that will be ordered to keep "order". NOW is the time to research and think before the # hits the fan. By then it will be too late, by then you'll either know what's happening, or you'll be "lost in the waves".

Always question - when a nation stops questioning, it is over. There are ALWAYS very smart and powerful people in this world who want total power. When you stop questioning, that's when you give them the "go ahead". And they are in every government of every nation on earth, just GIVE THEM THE CHANCE and it will be Nazi Germany all over again. Every generation has plenty of these people, and they are not your stupid super villains in movies who always lose in the end, historically they often WIN, and by the time they lose, a HUGE number of people are tortured, enslaved, and dead.

Sorry for the length of this post, but it's simply very difficult to see the most powerful nation in the world turn into a fascist dictatorship that is based on lies and fear right in front of you, and being among the small minority who sees it, just as the minority saw it during Nazi Germany and also could do NOTHING to stop it. Is this inevitable again? Or can something be done this time?

As long as the possibility exists, I will keep trying, others will keep trying. But the more time passes, the more people who can see what is coming up are getting out of the country, just as they got out of Germany. Before the internet is shut down or censored for "national security", I can only hope enough people wake up for the direction this nation is going in to change. The more time passes, the more difficult it is to change it.

Here are some quotes to think about.

=====

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind…And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

=====

"Fear not the path of truth,fear the lack of people walking on it."
-- Robert Francis Kennedy

=====

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels

=====

The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
-- Allan Bloom - The Closing of the American Mind

=====

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.
-- Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address

=====

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-- Voltaire

=====

". . . the world is governed by very different
personages from what is imagined by those who are
not behind the scenes."
--Benjamin Disraeli (Earl of Beaconsfield)

=====

"There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."
-- Daniel K. Inouye U.S. Senator

=====

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
-- Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom (1913)

Tell me, are all these people just paranoid/delusional/insane? Better think again...

[edit on 27-9-2005 by lilblam]

they are nut cases thats what we should call them.is there a group out there who knows who cares.you have given into fear and given up your freedoms.good leaders dont insight fear in there people in any country of this mighty blue planet.its those people that god has told them to kill something that we need give them a good smack.dont let nut cases run your life.

Originally posted by flukemol
its those people that god has told them to kill something that we need give them a good smack.dont let nut cases run your life.

Agreed, and since the "good christian" Bush is on a "God sent" moral mission to bomb brown people we should smack him proper.

We should stop letting that nutcase rule our lives!!!

[edit on 27/9/05 by redmage]

Originally posted by redmage

Originally posted by flukemol
its those people that god has told them to kill something that we need give them a good smack.dont let nut cases run your life.

Agreed, and since the "good christian" Bush is on a "God sent" moral mission to bomb brown people we should smack him proper.

We should stop letting that nutcase rule our lives!!!

[edit on 27/9/05 by redmage]

what would you do if you were in his position?

Originally posted by Danie
what would you do if you were in his position?

Well I know the question is not for me but I'll answer it anyway...
If I was in Bush's position I would...

1. Stop believing in fairy tales about God and what he wants and does not want you or anyone else to do.
2. Stop lying about pretty much everything you ever say in public.
3. Stop invading any nations until there is a proven threat, and the moment the majority of the population wants you to stop, STOP.
4. Stop rigging/fixing elections to become president illegally.
5. Stop flip flopping and changing your mind and making false promises that you never intend to keep and do the exact opposite.
6. Stop inacting laws that expand government powers and limit civil liberties - they only make it easier for government to create terror and control the people, and make it harder for the people to figure out the truth (unless that's your goal).
7. Stop making up stories about the reasons the terrorists do something, and stop assuming WHO those terrorists are without evidence.
8. Stop being a psychopath that is entirely devoid of any empathy whatsoever for any human alive except yourself and possibly your family.
9. Stop going on vacation and start having NON-SCRIPTED press conferences.
10. Stop controlling the mainstream media, let them be critical and actually question the government.
11. Stop blocking all attempts at private investigation of 911
12. Fix your 911 official story, because most of it is proven to be false
13. Stop trying to manipulate public opinion, let the public make up its own mind based on evidence, stop trying to convince them of anything.

And the list goes on and on and on...

America needed a big terror event to change constitutional laws to instill a sense of fear among its citizens the war on terror is a imaginary one
divide & conquer get two sides to oppose one another to make an excuse for war.

i dont wish to offend your beleifs but all american citizens should be protecting thierselves from the own protectors, liberty is not free.
not one of all the wars america has been involved in was sanctioned by congress it was the national security council, it designed the reasons for them secretly.

how can you justify bush as a devote christian to engaging in warmongery
a war on terror is a war on pepoles freedom
Ask yourself is iraq peacfull, watch the news iran is next

[edit on 29-9-2005 by jarf77psc]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by rstrik
It absolutely does give him a better perspective, seeing what the television wants you to see and seeing life with you own eyes is entirely different. What is a better effect watching the Sun set or someone telling you about it. Same thing.

Ah, but that's what people thought a few hundred years ago, and then after some calculations and thought, some scientists realised that the sun doesn't set, the earth spins which makes it look like the sun moves, which it does not. Appearances can be deceiving. Seeing it set does not tell you what is truly happening, just as being on the front lines does not necessarily mean you understand the situation. Again I refer to the Nazis - they were convinced that they were fighting for a just and righteous cause, and that their actions were necessary to secure a better future for Germany. It did not matter where you were, what was perceived by the majority was not what was happening at all, which was just mass murder in to enrich and empower a few psychopathic elite.

Unlike Nazi Germany, given the resource of the internet, today more people are able to see what back then only a few could see - that this is just an illegal invasion to subdue a nation and enrich and empower a few psychopathic rulers, in this case, the US rulers.

There were over 30 people on the ballot for elections for president, did we hand pick and choose them? No. The person we wanted elected didn't even get half the votes. An Iranian friendly president is NOT what we wanted. The people elected him, he was not appointed by the US.

Example:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Quote: Defence Secretary John Reid said no warrant had been received - and British personnel were immune from Iraqi laws.
"The MoD has not received any arrest warrant relating to any British personnel in Iraq," he said. "
"Iraqi law is very clear: British forces remain subject to British jurisdiction."

Do you wonder who made that law? Here's a hint: it wasn't the Iraqis.

Yeah that's it! Spend billions for public relations, I doubt that seriously. If we were worried about "maintaining appearences" we would have waited for UN approval.

No we wouldn't, as we'd never get it. What we want is to invade whomever we wish and then make it look like we're still the good guys.

Ok history major, what leader has the US assassinated in the last 20 years?

It's generally not a leader directly assassinated by US, but US sponsoring, training, and providing weapons for groups to overthrow or kill leaders or other groups that are not friendly to US in some way. Have you forgotten that we sold weapons to the sam Saddam that is supposed to be the "bad guy" now all of a sudden, for example?

Umm China and Russia have been standing up to the US for years. And what other nation have we taken over?

the US want to run all soverine states untill they rule the entire globe the NWO designs wars to this end.

In 1981 The CIA sold arms to Iran, uses the profits to arm the Contras fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. The CIA's Freedom Fighter's Manual disbursed to the Contras includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination.

In 1983 The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras' notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA's full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

Let's not forget the recent invasion of Afghanistan using the premise that it was somehow involved or had anything to do with 911. All evidence and logic shows that 911 was an event created and executed by US and Israeli agencies, and the muslims are simply the "false flag" scapegoats.

Oh I agree, we didn't fail - we invaded and took over Iraq just fine, it doesn't look like we messed up. Though if/when we try the same thing with Iran, the risk is much higher.

Stay on topic

This is on topic, the topic is "Where the heck are the terrorists?" and so anything to do with US's actions that involve the excuse of "terrorism" seems to be on topic. And it seems that Iran is indeed our next target for invasion and takeover, if we can manage it.

Funny that we're the ones causing all the casualties...

typical liberal blindness to the fact, yes we have killed civilians, yes the terrorists kill them daily. What is the difference? We don't target them.

Our aim must be terrible then, becasue we kill FAR more innocent civilians than all terrorists in the history of the world combined. And yes we do target them, we invaded their country and now are killing them in droves because they are picking up weapons to defend their nation and to drive out the hostile invaders (us). So our fight is with the Iraqi people, and just becasue we call them "insurgents" and "terrorists" doesn't change the fact that they are protecting their children, their homes, and their lives. We have murdered thousands of innocent children, and injured thousands more. Would you like to see some pictures of all that people we didn't "target" who ended up dead or dying anyway?

You tell this to the crying mothers, and to the dead and dying families who were slaughtered by US forces. Perhaps our aim is just realllly bad?

www.robert-fisk.com...

But more than that, we're carelessly attacking anything that moves, anything we even SUSPECT is a threat in any way - and the vast majority of the casualties are innocent civilans that we thought were "terrorists".

Tell the Kurds and Shiites they were free.

They were free from US occupation. They were free from being slaughtered left and right and blown up by US forces who "do not target them". They were free from having laws imposed on them by a foreign invader. They had water and electricity!

Why did we sell weapons and promote mass slaughter to the same people, 20 years ago, that we now claim are "evil" and choose to invade? Why do we think we have the right to decide what system of government a country can have? Since when are we the "global police"? And how exactly is it "liberation" when you invade a country, murder thousands, occupy it indefinitely, impose your own rules and laws and curfew and regulation, shatter the infrustructure of the country, and basically create more death and chaos than the country ever imagined?

And you think the elections were real? Do you realise that they did not even know who they were voting for, but only the party the candidate represented, in order to protect the candidate? Do you realise that the people never choose the candidate, they simply vote for one out of a few that are "presented" to them? Out of 300,000,000 people in US, do you think Bush Jr. was simply the best candidate for president? Or do you think he was simply the one with the connections, power, and money to have the best chance?

We don't even have a democracy or free elections in US, what chance do you think there is that we'd be able to establish a democracy elsewhere?

wow amazing. "They were free before we invaded" have you completely blinded yourself with the hatred of Bush to realize what Saddam did to his people?

Have you blinded yourself with your love for Bush to realise what Bush did to Iraqi people, and that he killed far more innocent Iraqis than Saddam ever dreamed of?

Gasing his own people is free?

Who said that? He never gassed his own people, that's just US propaganda.

Show me any evidence that he gassed his own people.

Rape and torture chambers and mass graves are free?

US constantly tortures and detains people illegally as well, and has a practice of sending them to countries like Egypt where torture is legal, if it cannot torture them in US. And again, Guantenamo and Abu Ghraib come to mind.

The people did try to rise up against Saddam after the first Gulf War, you know what happened? He used Nerve and Mustard gas on them and left them in the streets dead.

That's not what I heard. Give me any evidence that this is not just more US government propaganda, just more lies created to demonize Saddam.

Where are your facts? What "fascist dictatorships" are you speaking of?

Here's a quote for a few examples:
"that in 1942, Prescott Bush, the current president’s grandfather, was called Hitler’s Angel by the New York Tribune; that in 1946, the OSS/CIA overthrew the Metakas government in Greece; that the U.S. gave at least $60 million to bring to power the former Nazi intelligence network of General Reinhard Gehlen in the first decade following World War II to control the intelligence apparatus in West Germany; that in 1953, the U.S. overthrew the popular Mossadegh in Iran and installed the brutal Shah; that in 1954, the CIA overthrew the democratically-elected Arbenz government in Guatemala; that in 1957, the CIA financed the election of pro-American candidates to the Lebanese Parliament; that in 1964, the CIA gave $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chile; that in 1967, the CIA overthrew the democratically-elected government of George Papandreou and installed a military dictatorship; that in 1973, the CIA overthrew the second oldest democracy in the western hemisphere in Chile; that in 1975, the CIA destabilized and forced the dissolution of the Labor government under Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in Australia; that in 1976, the CIA attempted to overthrow Michael Manley’s government in Jamaica."

From
www.onlinejournal.com...

How did we oppress Iraq even further? They can actually vote now, they are free to march in the streets to protest the US or anything else they want without dying, they can watch TV, they are free.

The infrustructure of the country is ruined, many areas have no water or electricity or gas. Iraqis are now in danger of being shot or blown up much more than they ever were, only since our invasion. Sure they can "protest" but who listens to them? The US people can protest all they want, but again, the government could care less, as they did during the massive protests against the way, before the invasion of Iraq.

They vote for people we choose for them, and we still decide who wins in the end just like we do here in US. Yes they can eat McDonalds and watch TV now, which is truly what "freedom" is all about, right? Who cares if civilans, including women and children are being murdered by foreign invaders, who cares if your government is now controlled by those foreign invaders, who cares if CIA and Mossad-sponsored false-flag suicide bombers keep blowing themselves up to justify further occupation, etc.

And now they can't march in the streets without dying, that's when they generally tend to be shot or disbursed with tear gas. And even if they manage to marge in the streets - what good does that do if no one cares or listens to anything they demand?

Iraq is no different than Nazi Germany. We defeated their army and rebuilt their country.

Iraq had no army to "defeat". It was not a war, but a systematic slaughter. Iraq is different than Nazi Germany - they posed no threat to US, they did not try to "take over the world" by systematically invading, occupying foreign nations.

Only difference is half the middle east believe we are Zionists and are fighting for a cause that is spread through lies.

We are controlled by Zionists, and we are fighting a cause that is based on all lies.

If there weren't any terrorists right now the country would be having elections with no interference and we could spend all these billions on infrastructure instead of tanks.

We spend it on tanks to fight the very people whose country we illegally invaded and now occupy. The "terrorists" are the Iraqi people who oppose our rule. The "terrorists" are also CIA and Mossad false flag agents who blow things up and blame it on muslims. Mossad is also known for creating fake Al Qaeda cells and pretending that it's "muslim extrimists" again, and have been caught doing this many times.

We are not installing democracy at gunpoint.

But we are there with guns trying to force them to accept our version of what we call "democracy". Are we not?

I don't see any of the people voting doing it in fear of the US, they are coming out in droves to do it because they want a say in their countrys affairs.

I see plenty of people fearing the US and hating the US and fighting the US oppression. I see plenty of people that are spreading truth in personal blogs that contradict the media lies that the government is spreading.

how can you enginier a war secretly :
its simple get an covert agency to plant a few car bombs somewere and
then blame it on the opposing factor its all down to divide and conquer

Originally posted by andpau66

Originally posted by Watchman77
For the past four years we have been told by our government that we must give up our freedom & our privacy in order to protect our country from the "evildoers" who seek to destory "The American Way of Life"...

the US is becoming a police state,war is big busness
Where is this quote from the government? The only people that I have heard saying that kind of stuff is people on these forums. I never heard the administration say "we must give up our freedoms & our privacy in order to protect our country..".

I HAVE heard people on here and other forums claiming that is what the government is doing or is planning on doing.....thats all.

I think you are confusing people that are letting their paranoia take over and posting rumors on the Internet and what is actually happening in the real world.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by andpau66]

What can you do? The government has prevented another 9/11 and some people act like they want another terrorist attack. Not good job on securing our country, it's.. it was all a lie and we are being deceived because more people haven't been attacking in the US yet. No matter what Bush does some people are never going to be satisified. Lucky for us the people protecting this country don't think the same way as people on this board. Maybe the next terrorist attack will strike somebody close to them and they will then wake up and realize...oh my god this is real! I don't wish that on anybody but I sometimes think it will take something that major to sway their opinions.

I also hear people complain their freedoms are being taken away, yet they can't name one person they know or anything themselves that has been taken away. It's always lame excuses like I have to wait in longer lines in the airport. The fact that Bush stepped up where Clinton wouldn't and actually does what he thinks is right to secure our country is great to me. The fact that Bush shoots first and asks questions later is exactly the way you have to handle terrorist, they aren't criminals or make believe enemies like people want to believe. I've always said it will take another major terrorist attack maybe in say L.A. that will finally wake people up and get them out of their conspiratorial dream land.

Originally posted by Danie

Originally posted by redmage

Originally posted by flukemol
its those people that god has told them to kill something that we need give them a good smack.dont let nut cases run your life.

Agreed, and since the "good christian" Bush is on a "God sent" moral mission to bomb brown people we should smack him proper.

We should stop letting that nutcase rule our lives!!!

[edit on 27/9/05 by redmage]

what would you do if you were in his position?

Bush is about as Christian as Anton Lavey was!!!!!!!

Originally posted by TheAZCowBoy
Interesting all this "terrorist" talk......

In Vietnam the US massacred 3.4 million innocents
In Laos & Cambodia the US massacred 750,000 innocents
In Panama: The US massacred 6,000 innocents
In Guatemala the US massacred 88,000 innocents
In Honduras the US massacred 184,000 innocents
In El Salvador the US massacred 122,000 innocents
In Iraq the US has massacred over 150,000 innocents (19,000 children)
In Afghanistan the US has massacred 38,000 (9,800 children)

At WTC Al-Queda massacred 2900 innocents

Question: Who are the real terrorists?

TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.

Next time we'll count the number of Arabs the Joo's have massacred over the past 54 years -vs- those Joos massacred by the Arabs - and talk once more about abject terrorism, OK?

Next time when you quote such off the wall numbers provide where you attained these numbers that are incorrect. I also love the way you include innocents only. You quote skewed total numbers not including enemies they were all just innocents huh? If you want to spread such propoganda against your country I know a few that would love to have you, so just leave this one.

Vietnam has never officially released a casualty number that remained constant. It seems to change as the government has become less hostile. And even then it is a total number not a US number. If you remember which i doubt you were old enough to it was two sides fighting in the same country. North and South.

Here is another good site with all the listed casualties for the 20th century. As your anti-american a** can see, your satanic country is by far not the number one killer in the 20th century.

www.vietnam-war.info...

Here is another link to all military troops movements since 1900. Please tell me which off the wall number did you get the Honduras conflict from?

US Military Movements

These are just few places you can look, if you are going to spit forth such crap at least provide links or evidence to your claims. Oh and just to make sure you understood which I doubt even if I explained it you would but, armed military personnel is NOT CONSIDERED INNOCENT.

One more just paste in your browser had to edit.

users.erols.com...







[edit on 9/29/2005 by rstrik]

So you believe in US' innocence?

Originally posted by rstrik
I also hear people complain their freedoms are being taken away, yet they can't name one person they know or anything themselves that has been taken away. It's always lame excuses like I have to wait in longer lines in the airport.

Funny, I addressed this quite clearly a few pages ago, and you had no comment, but are still stuck on the "It's always lame excuses like I have to wait in longer lines in the airport."

I said nothing about "airports" but gave real life situations.

Originally posted by rstrik
I said it once and I'll say it again, what has changed in YOUR life?

redmage
I would say the right to due process and the right to privacy.

Furthermore, under the new legislation, they basically define "terrorist" as anyone who does something that goes against the american way of life.

By this definition if you break, or are accused of breaking, any law you can be detained indeffinately without being charged or even given access to a lawyer. Indefinately means no right to a speedy trial (another right lost).

I'd watch your spedometer on your way to work, don't wanna get caught speeding do ya?

Now admittedly that is an extreme example but, the way the legislation stands, those doors are open; and as the old saying goes, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".



But who knows rstrik, maybe you're so adamently supporting this so that you don't get "pulled over for speeding". To which I would respond "I don't blame ya, I've been considering changing my stance as well".

Originally posted by rstrik
If you believe for one minute Clinton and the past 5 or so presidents all weren't in the pocket of special interests in some way or another you need to do a little research.

Agreed

Originally posted by rstrik
You do realize who runs this country I hope, the American Military.

And in the military you are not allowed to question authority or it's motives.

You sit down, shut up, and take orders.

Exactly the direction many of us fear this country is headed.

rstrik
I've always said it will take another major terrorist attack maybe in say L.A. that will finally wake people up and get them out of their conspiratorial dream land.

I've always said that for some; it will take a family member, good neighbor, or themself to "disapear" before they will wake up from the "my government can do no wrong and has my best interests in mind" dream land.

But again rstrik; maybe you're so adamently supporting this so that you don't get "pulled over for speeding". To which I would respond "I don't blame ya, I've been considering changing my stance as well".

Originally posted by Danie
what would you do if you were in his position?

In a word, resign.

Relinquish the presidency to someone capable, deserving, and who hopefully has the interests' of the people of our country in mind.

The man is a puppet, it's actually quite sad because when I look into his eyes, I believe that he actually thinks he is doing what is best for the country. He just doesn't know any better.

He doesn't seem to comprehend the damage, or the fact that he is being manipulated and used.

We all grow up being told "anyone can become president", in theory it's a great idea but, in practice one should be far above avarage intelligence and also qualified or as close to as possible considering the weight of the position.

This is a man who has never had to work for anything in his life. It was all just handed to him.

Do you really believe he earned a place at Yale with straight A's in high school; or that he was a "legacy" candidate only considered and accepted because his forefathers attended there and made huge donations to the school?

From oil companies to baseball teams, every business given to him by his father was driven to failure, yet he can run a country?

He makes rediculous claims of being christian and pro-life; yet people killed in Texas by the death penalty reached unheard of heights during his time as governor. Doesn't seem like life is really all that sacred to him. Or the teachings of the bible regarding love and forgiveness for that matter.

I guess in short, he should retire to his life on the Crawford ranch, where he spent the first months of his presidency redefining vacation time, with his family millions to a life he is more suited for.

Originally posted by rstrik
Can anybody honestly who actually lives in the US post something they have had taken away from them? I hear this crap on ATS all the time and nobody can provide me with a freedom you "lost". I've been living my same normal life for the last 5 years and can't find one thing I am or have to do differently than I did in the past. The only people who are affected by these laws being passed are the ones who deserve to be. I know many many people and can honestly say never heard one person say " I just lost the right to ......" or "I can't do this because of that stupid terrorist act that just passed".

What color is your skin? Do you have an Arabic name? In any event, the fact that the Patriot Act and several Executive Orders grant the Attorney General and the President the power to hold you in detention for the rest of your days because they suspect you of "terrorism" is a fundamental revocation of your (and everyone's) constitutional rights to due process of law including speedy trial, representation by counsel and a jury trial, among others. If that doesn't concern you, you are a Republican.

Finally, you must not have taken part in the madness of the WTO march in Seattle a few years back or in the war protests in NYC or the protests in Dade County, Fla. In each case, hundreds were arrested and held for protesting without violence or harm to property. It's happening every day. First they took the Jews. Then they took the gypsies. Then they took anyone opposed to them.