When do we get our Liberties back?

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Thomas Crown and dancer, what "liberties" do we "need to take back"?

All of them.

Fill me in. What "liberities" have any of you actually had taken away that have affected you freedom or way of life in America?

The Random bag searches are part of it, it is A direct Violation of Search and seisure mentioned in the US Constitution.

I want to walk the streets without having the cops ask for my papers.

I want to walk into a Court house, School, or public building Without going through a metal detector. I want to get on a plane without having to ID myself - Listing my Next of Kin. I want to get on a plane with a .45 and not have everyone freak out.

Your talking about LITTLE things like stepped up bag searches on mass transit (and only in certain locations) that none of you will probably even go through and if you do, so what?

Every liberty we loose, no matter how small it is lessens us all.

Are we suppossed to do nothing at all and just send the message to terrorist's that they can walk onto the subway with bags full of bombs becuase no authorities are ever go to make an effort to search suspisious looking people or bags. They are not out there searching every citizen and if they were, so what?

You speak like a frightened old man - one who is afraid to Die.

This is not Liberty - this is Not the land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, This is The land of the Policed, and the home of Cowards.

The US is Way over reacting to the whole issue.

The whole concept of Terrorism is to force us to change our way of life - to "Be in a State of Terror or Fright"

Anytime there is an enhanced police presence; Everytime anyone walks through a metal detector the Terrorists win.
It is nothing but a Bilboard that says "Hey - you won - I'm scared"
No - reaction is the strongest sign.

Most police work is the result of tips - and investigation.

If one attack on us soil happens every day from now on -
The odds of getting killed as a result of a terrorist attack are worse than getting hit by lightening, with a Winning lottery ticket in your pocket.

Sure, I recognise that my views are extreame and that it ain't about to happen - but that is a different tangent.

[edit on 7/31/2005 by dancer]

I have a good question for all of you out there, name me a country that took it's citizens rights away-for their safety-and returned them without a government change?

Originally posted by noosnomrm
I have a good question for all of you out there, name me a country that took it's citizens rights away-for their safety-and returned them without a government change?

Well I don't know if the neocons can survive the people waking up but hopefully this country doesn't end up with the same "ending" as the other nations rotting in the dust bin of history.

The people I know in the States, won't work for an Arm of the State.
They do not have "liberal" degrees, one happens to have a law degree.
Only work they can get pays them next to nothing.

America is going down hill quickly.
CAFTA + War on Drugs + War on Terror will only make things a lot worse.

Pulled post - want to confirm info.

[edit on 8/1/2005 by dancer]

'BG13 has got it all in one... Would now be the right time for me to redirect your attention to something that may (or may not) have already come to your attention... The CIA created Osama Bin Laden... '
And the west funded Lenin's communist revolution to the tune of millions of dollars.
And Hitler also benefitted greatly from the wests industrial investment in Germany.
And who created Saddam? built his bunkers, sold him some of his weapons, and supported his military expansion?
If there is no foe big enough to fight, it almost seems like one is created just so there can be someone to fight.
And what nation, when there was no one to fight, split up into two teams, north and south, and then held there own domestic war instead?

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
boogyman, name (1) Liberty that you PERSONALLY have lost since 9/11.
Name just (1) that you had before 9/11 and is now lost.
Maximu§

The liberty to be neutral in this War perhaps?

Pretty important to me.

Because according to the President there are only 2 kind of people,
"you're either with us or against us" were his exact words...

DANCER, you CAN walk down the street without cops searches your bags. Where do you live that they even do this? they don't even do it in NYC, so what are you talking about.

Also i love how you and Pheonix, keep saying i am the one who is "scared".
It's YOU that is scared. you clearly show that in your post by stating you want to be able to carry a .45 onto a plane. For what? Anyone who needs to carry a gun on a plane is either a nut, a terrorist or someone who afraid of something. So again YOU are the one that is "scared".

The cops are not even harrassing or bothering anyone of you, so stop crying and making things out to look like you have no "liberities".
Please already.
You all make it sound like you can't leave your house without your rights being violated or something.

ODIUM. i gave you a bunch of examples of jobs that are in the medical sector and are always in high demand and pay high and have nothing to do with working for our gov't., so you just present an excuse, nothing more.
As far as your friend or friends having a law degree, 70% of the lawyers in the world live right here in the U.S. Maybe your friends should have done more research into what jobs and professions are actually in demand in the U.S. and what jobs are in the future, then they should have gone and got a degree in one of those feilds of study so they could actually get a decent job. That's just personal choice, you can not blame the Gov't. for that. Yet is amazing how many people do, except for taking responciblity for themselves.
Also anyone with a law degree can sure as heck get a decent paying job somewhere. It may not be as a lawyer, but...Also i love how so many come out of college thinking they are going to be making some kind of large amount of money as soon as they start a job , yet they have not even proved themselves and do not even have any work expirence yet.
Get real.
Before 911, i was a union bartender in a hotel right in Times Sq. that catered to a lot of celebrities. Being union i was making 18.00 plus tips and full medical and dental benifets. Then 911 happened and i wwas laid off and my job, so i took lesser paying jobs in hopes that my old job would open again. I did this for 2 years after the attacks and to this day as the 5th out of 5 bartenders on the union scale has never been filled again.
So do i blame the gov't. that i can not find a job that was a good as that one or do i do something about it?
Well, i do something about it. I took EMT-Basic classes for 3 months and now i am working as an EMT-B making only 11.00 an hour. However now i am continuing by going to EMT-Paramedic school for the next year and a half and then i will be making 20.00-30.00 an hour to start right after i complete school. On top of that i do a job with a purpose, excitement, and i am helping others out and even saving lives.
you do what you have to with the cards dealt to you and you don't have to blame the gov't, or do drugs or steal or murder.



[edit on 1-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

Gregnow,
We are not scared - it is the police that are, unfortunately that causes a bit of over zeallous reaction.

The concept of bringing a .45 on a plane was ment as an illistration - not as something that would actually be done. Symbolic of our lost liberties.

I am rather Sick and Tired of letting them win any victory.

A few years back, one of my close friends was the primary/secondary target (Primary is likely) of an Terrorist attack. Through some fortune they had an issue come up that caused them to not attend.

Their lives - although impacted, have remained what they were prior to the attack.

So before any one cries about what could happen, what may happen, and what is going to happen again some day.

Ask yourselves:

"How would you react knowing that they were comming for you - specificly?"

Knowing everytime that you started your car it may be the last - and not your end alone - the end of your family and friends - anyone within blast radius.

Could you then at that point go on with things - without letting it get to you?
My friend has - for the most part - Risk is a part of life, what is life without risk?
No, it's not about courage - It's about not letting them see you sweat.



Yes, I too have lost people on 9/11 and I am not alone in that by anymeans. So I do understand the uneasyness major cities undergo during any attack anywhere.
- In military terms I liken it to having a junkie as a pointman.

[edit on 8/1/2005 by dancer]

Greg, you seem to have this strange focus that people are only concerned about bag searches. I read the entire thread and I don't see people complaining about bag searches

I see people complaining about blatant disregard to constitutional BILL OF RIGHTS being allowed under the Patriot Act and OTHER recent Legislation or Judicial review and the DANGERS THEY POSE. Not too many mentions of bags in this thread- actually on another glance over YOU seem to be the only one making them.

You questioned the validity of my claim for $2000.00 total in exchange for my $200,000.00 property - there are at least 600 other families in the same boat. Do a search in the Denver Times for articles on the "Super Slab" if you wish, there is no shortage of stories there. I'd provide you a copy of the official notice if I had not destroyed it out of total disgust. I am sure I may have another one shortly. The reason the private corporation gives for justifying such a low price is the rural-ness of the area and the relatively few structures along its almost 200 mile path that they will pay average price for the land between pts A & B- furthermore they claim the to pay any more will cut into their PROFITS of all things! Thank you Justice System for giving the developers the thumbs up!

I don't know what kind of number falls into massive land grabs for you. Most won't take much action for a measly 600 families dislocated for pennies on the dollar especially when those families are spread over several voting districts and a large percentage military with "homes of record" in other states- but this is pretty darn substantial to those involved.

Why do the other complaints about the PA violations matter? Well, for one I intend to fight the corporation and the city hall. That surely won't get me any friends. City hall has and always had a way of making itself "felt" but it was pretty limited in the past. Once the PA goes into effect they do not even have to use the guise of SPEEDING to pull me over and harass me. They have a lot more power- virtually unlimited. They can just haul me in never telling me a charge, hold me indefinitely, search my house without a warrant, not allow a phone call for an attorney, beat me for 'questioning', convict me on "secret" evidence (or label me a terrorist - and get it to sell on the news because I own firearms) and send me to jail for life/ even execute me, confiscate my house and dispose of my belongings while I am out of the loop. All the while keeping my funds frozen so if I managed to contact an attorney I couldn't pay one.

The Patriot Act does not prohibit its use on American Civilians or limited to application on 'terrorists' which could be defined in any sort of way - if you disagree with any of the 'powers that be' YOU can be labeled a terrorist

These are VERY real threats to 600 families in my area- telling us do not rock the boat with fighting this- How could we??? If city hall wants this- and they do because of the TAX revenue that will be generated- what leg do we still have to stand on AFTER the PA goes into effect? Their outright terror tactics seem to be working- families are already giving up the fight and planning to move.

Even if they move the route so as MY house does not get taken- it is still wrong- someone is getting screwed and it is time to take a stand as a citizen. does the wording of the PA contradict the VERY SPECIFIC wording of the constitution? only one correct answer here folks.

Not happening to people around the country you say??? Want to walk a mile in my shoes?

Only happens to criminals? I'm a several time decorated, military officer in a very sensitive position! Your argument does not hold water!

Bags checked PPPPLLLLEEEEAAAAASSSSEEEEE!! Give the bags a rest, please, oh, please give the bags issue a rest. Bag searches are like the least of the worries- even though without PROBABLE CAUSE they are also completely unwarranted.

These are REAL constitutional issues possibly affecting every citizen of the United States to say you don't own land so what about the eminent domain issue is VERY irresponsible for a citizen. You haven't seen the abuses of power yet so say that it cannot possibly be happening is equally childlike.

Contact my representatives- you betya and then some; Military is really uncared for by politicians - my home of record is another state- they don't care. how much can I affect the vote there? The local ones don't care here either because I can't vote here. I could change residency to TRY to vote here but by the time the next election comes up I could be locked up or displaced and have to register somewhere else yet again.

What other options do I have? Spread the word, convince the rest of America this legislation is dangerous, against the specific wishes of our forefathers and only a matter of time before it is used against us in large scale. Ok here you go.


[edit on 1-8-2005 by launchpad]

DANCER, ok, i guess i will explain this agin even though i already did to Pheonix.
You like him contradict yourself.
You say that we all should not be scared of what "might" happen or what "could" happen when it comes to the topic of terrorist's possibly attacking us again,
Yet YOU yourself are showing that YOU are "scared" of what the gov't. "might" or "could" do next to your "liberities" now they are simply searching more bags in places like the NYC subway.
Fact is YOU can walk right out your front door right now and go about your day just like you have any other day and your "liberities" are not going to be interfered with.

The message they are giving by checking more bags on the NYC subway is not a message of "letting them see us sweat" as you put it. It's a message that the authorities in America or letting terrorist's know that there is a possiblity at least that they can not just walk onto the subway with a bomb in their bag, leave it on the subway and then walk off and detonate without the possiblity that they may be stopped and apprehended before they can just do it that easily.
So your genius solution is to say to the terrorist's , "hey feel free to bomb us the same way you just did in London, because we are so stupid that we are not go to even bother to step up security on the subway anyway, so you have absolutly no chance of getting caught". Yea, that makes sense.

Also, i like how you try to get out of the point i made about your statement about how you feel YOU should be able to bring a gun on a plane if you want. you say you were just trying to illustrate a point. Please that is a stupid way to illustrate a point.
Allowing anyone to just bring a gun on to a plane is the stupidist thing i have heard on this thread yet. No one should have the right or "liberty" to bring a gun onto a plane in this country before or after the 911 attacks.
That is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard.
Yea, make more "illustrations" like that to back up your points of losing your liberities.

LAUNCHPAD, i guess you actually did not read the thread then as people are complaining about their bags and belongings being searched all over this thread, so what are you even talking about.
They are using the "bags being searched" as the whole basis of how the bill of rigths is being changed and their "liberties" have been taken away.
I and others have asked those on this thread what "liberities" have they actually had taken away and the answer is that now authorities are allowed to "check bags more".
so what are you even talking about?

Other then that the only other thing that has been brought up is the new law that allows gov't. to buy out certain land in certain areas without the owner having much say (which is wrong but is hardly happening to the majority of Americans).

It seems a simple thing like checking bags more in certain areas in NYC (which is something that makes a lot of sense to people with common sense) is now the basis for people on this thread saying that they have less liberites then they have had any other time in their life. Guess what? That's not true. anyone of you can do the same stuff you have always done your whole lives.

Also LAUNCHPAD, I still do not believe that you are only getting 2000.00 for property that is worth or cost you 200,000.00. That is absurd. BUT, if it is true, then i am a number one supporter of that being a GROSS injustice done to you and a mass action lawsuit then should be started by you and the other 600 families (if they are in the same boat as you).
If you are the only one not getting back at least what you put into your land, then i do feel bad for you and i hope there is some way you can get justice and the money that you deserve.

Also the original question of this thread is more based on the poster acting as though we are living in a police nation where we have lost a bunch of "liberites" becuase of the terror attacks and our war on terror. The land law has nothing to do with any of that and is a seperate issue as there are plaenty of injustices in this country that go on and have nothing to do with the terror attacks/war.
I am more addressing the crybabies on here that act like they now have to live any different then they did any other time in their life because somehow they think they have lost some kind of "liberites".



[edit on 1-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

LAUNCHPAD, i did a search on what you said and i could not find anything about people being ripped off and not getting what their land is worth.
In fact i found this article from only a month ago that says the highway you are talking about has not even been approved and a representive there is fighting it with citizens as he thinks the 2 bills (not law yet) that was passed for corperations to do what you are talking about was passed to quickly.
So i may be wrong, but it does not sound like you HAVE to give up your land at all as of yet, and there are REAL people fighting it from even happening.
Here's the link, what am i missing?
www.coloradoan.com...
and actually it states that it is not even a law that allows private companies to do what you are saying, it is 2 "bills" that say this, so right now it is not even allowed to happen and the govener has hinted that he is going to veto one of those bills.


[edit on 1-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

Actually, i just reread the article again and i now see were maybe the highway was approved to be built but they are fighting "further" highway projects like that or something. The article is really not written that clearly if you read it fast.
However it seems to say that the highway is actually needed in that area because of so many who commute to Denver, it's more that the citizens do not like the unchecked power of corperations calling the shots.
I don't live there, but the fact is if the highway is REALLY needed because of all the growing commuters then does that make it wrong?
What is wrong is if you are only getting 2000.00 for a 200,000.00 property which i am sorry but does not make any sense and if it is true i would think you could hire any lawyer and win the money you at least deserve for your property.

Alos this is for a large highway that seems to be needed. People on this thread though try to make it sound like corperations can just go to their home and take it from them because they want to build an office building or something. That's not waht's happening and agin most people don't own any land that the gov't. or corperations wany to begin with.
But like i said the main issue on this thread is about people crying that they now have no "liberites" because of stepped up security like bag checks in the NYC subway. The land issue law has nothing to do with terror attacks/war. It may or may not be wrong depending on the case, but it is hardly affecting the majority of americans and has nothing to do with terror or living in a "police state" with no liberties like some on this thread think they are.



[edit on 1-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

Maybe not in a police nation this very minute but you can certainly expect to see the effect of the PA soon enough. Once it passes i expect the abuses to start off slowly then accelerate like a locomotive with no breaks going down hill.

There is nothing in the PA seperating YOU (Greg, Joe Blow, or John Doe) from someone you might have in you mind as being a terroist today. The first time YOU disgree with the governemt and attempt to fight it- there you go- end of story for you.

This is the TRUE issue and citizens not picking up on it make me sad I've been defending their rights all these years.

There ARE things that could be done as we've covered before to show we are strcit on terrorists. Not a thing in the PA are them. But everything in the PA IS a violation of your, mine and every Americans rights exercised or not.

Security for ports?
Inspections on all goods coming into the country instead of small percentage?
Tighter boarders?
More fire fighters?
More medical personel?

These are the directions we need to be going. Not cartblanche for violating peoples rights.

LAUNCHPAD, you need to read my posts (i know there are a lot at this point, so i would not read them all either).
Anyway, i have already said that i see the points you are trying to make in the last post you put up and i agree with them in that it "could" happen, but right now it has NOT happened that they have nade any types of laws that allow them to bust into your home just because you talk bad about the Gov't. (actually maybe there is a law for that now, but no one is enforcing it either way and it is unconsitutional as it then forbids freedom of speech).
That is not happening. What is happening is they are trying to do what little they can to prevent further possible attacks from happening in "certain" areas like the NYC subway.
It is hardly changing anyone "liberties" like people on here seem to think their lives are now any different then before (the truth is they are not).
Right now 70% of the people on this site would be being detained if that was true. We still have freedom of speech and now we have little things like stepped up security measures to try and prevent attacks being so easy to carry out. I'm all for it, because if there are further attacks then it may well prevent us from living the lives we are used to in this country. One good hit to the financial district in NYC and the whole country will be affected, not just NYC.
We are at war (and i do not mean that Iraq sham our corrupt Bush admisitration started). we are at war with an enemy that can , wants to, and probably will attack us agin on our own soil. we need stepped up security for that. Otherwise we are nothing as a nation as we are then saying to terrorist "yes, you took the twin towers down and you bombed the London subway, but hey, feel free to do it agin as we are going to do nothing about trying to stop you". Does that really make sense to you?
It's no different then when Japan attacked our soil at Pearl Harbor. Where we to also do nothing about that? If we did nothing, then they just would have done it agin somewhere else on our own soil because it would show that we were weak and and did not care.
It's no different, except that it is a different kind of war now then that so we need to fight it with different measures.
The truth as i see it is that there is more a chance of another attack happening on our own soil before our gov't. actully makes a move bold enough to actually restrict our freedom of speech or any other liberty that actually matters and is worth complaining about. There are to many citizens/congressmen and lawyers in this country to fight something like that from it even ever happening...and if enough of you are not willing to fight something like that, then God help us all. I know i would be fighting it, but i am not going to fight stupid things like stepped up security like bag searches which is common sense in CERTAIN areas.



[edit on 1-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

Damn GregNow why don't you tell us how you really feel.

Bout time someone said that.

Maybe this news article that just came out today (aug. 1st, '05) will wake some of you up to why we need to have certain stepped up security. And please before you comment, read the whole thing.
news.yahoo.com...

You know...WTC and Pearl Harbor were responses to the U.S foreign policies of their time. Perhaps if that changed....think about it kiddies.

I know we all want our corporations to be rich...especially our oil companies because, lets face it, serving the public trust is what our national corporations are all about. Right? I mean...isn't that right?

We should be free to invade and plunder the national resources of other and hence lesser countries because we (the U.S) are the beacon of light to the world. When we destroyed Latin American countries in the sevenities and eighties, it was because we were being the hope of democracy. That our corporations made huge profits off of slave labor is irrelevant. GET IT!

When we decimated South Vietnam it was GOD's WILL! DOn't you understand kiddies. They aren't white or english speaking and they worship strange idols. We were saving their souls...and if our corps made a little money on it...well that's just god's own free-market...sorta backed by a military state...but nothings perfect.

When we supported Saudi Arabia horrible regime and overthrew the Shah of Iran and installed Saddam Hussien and unilatterally backed Isreal it was to be a point of light and freedom to those dirty-dark-skinned-heathen worshipping-unwashed-masses. We were bringing the light of Christianity/Democracy/freedom/capitolism to these sand dwellers...and if our corporations make a little money on the side...well I'm sure its in the Bible somewhere.


s
o

in conclusion...there are ways to stop terrorism. We could change our foreign policy and go against the will of God (judeo-christian of course) or we can just KILL THEM ALL.

I think the answer's obvious.



There is no enemy anywhere - Lao Tse

Originally posted by launchpad
In most cases the original owner gets SCREWED so that the corporation can clean up.

I should know I am going through it right now in Colorado Springs for the corporation owned toll road. I just purchased my 2.5 acre/ 3 bd/ 2 bath place in DEC 04 as a retirement property for ~$150K and immediately invested about $20K more- this week i got papers telling me my "just compensation was going to be around $800 an acre for a grand total of only $2000 to include the house".

Plans for a road project don't get made and competed in 7 months time. They usually take several years. This indicates to me several possibilities.

1) you are lying (sorry, no insult intended, but I have no way of verifying what you are claiming). However, for now I will assume that you are telling the truth.

2) You failed to do your homework on the property before purchasing. Did you have the property appraised before you purchased it?

Was it financed by a local bank or mortgage company?

All of these people should have known about this before you purchased the property.


or 3) you are the victem of fraud. If the previous owner (or the real estate agent) knew that the road was coming through and did not disclose this to you, then you are the victim of fraud. I would suggest that you consult a lawyer. It wouldn't be hard to prove that they knew about it. There would have been articles in the local paper, mailings from the county to the property owners, other real estate sale in the area, etc.