When do we get our Liberties back?

Also ODIUM, aside from the possible jobs i mention that your friends could get in America, if they have college degrees, then why can they not apply to work for the FBI or the CIA. They are both higher right now and have even put TV commericals up stating so.
It's funny, i just put this up and ATS already has a google ads to the right of this post saying that the Secret Service and CIA are hiring.



[edit on 31-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Also PHOENIX, you make comments to my points in an effort to attack me but you really do not show where i am wrong. Like you say it is people,like me that are making this country go down the crapper because i am AGAINST gansta rappers who are REAL people promoting a lifestyle that it is cool to sell drugs and MURDER people to get ahead in this country.
IT's people LIKE THAT that are making this county go down the crapper and people like you that support them. People do NOT have the right to MURDER people, especially over stupid thing like selling drugs. and they should not have the right to promote a lifetyle of MURDER and selling drugs in america. That's one of the main reason the inner city kids are growing up the way they are.
also no one on here bother to anser me back about the fact that none of you do anything but complain, instead of actually organizing and writing and calling your congressmen to take action on things you think are wrong in the country (and i am not talking about stupid things like more bag checks in the NYC subway).

i respect what gregnow has to say but its just a fundamental disagreement between those who believe we are losing our liberties and those who believe it is necessary for the new world we live in. Unfortunately those who believe in the latter as a good way to stop terrorism need to understand that terrorism is the best political weapon that governments can use against their own people. I do not worry about the arab next to me on the train or bus blowing himself up. I worry about the government running blackops missions against its own people. This is the scenario many are beginning to see take place in America. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini only dreamed of the capabilities and technology we have at our disposal.

Bin Laden was not responsible for the Patriot Act. Your government was.

Bin Laden did not make the Patriot Act permenant. Your government did.

Bin Laden didn't pass a military spending bill with shady REAL ID national cards packaged in with it. Your government did. (If you do not understand the dangers of having a national ID, I urge you to see another thread on here that deals with it or google and research for yourself)

Little by little those who understand what is really taking place see the erosion of the Bill of Rights and FLAGRANT violations of the U.S. Constitution as leading the way for a fascist regime controlling the entire U.S.

REBELSAINT, i understand and actually agree with EVERYTHING you said in your last post. The thing is though that we still need to have stepped up security of some kind to TRY to prevent further attacks. It does not matter if the stuff you say is true, which i believe a lot of it is, I hate the Bush administration and have said that more then once in this thread, BUT we still need stepped up security either way. It would be foolish not to step up security. I hardly think that checking more bags at palces like the NYC subway is doing anything to affect american's way of life or freedoms though.
It HAS to be done.
NOW, it the gov't. actually does go and make new laws that actually do affect our feedoms in ways that change our lives, then that is the time to start complianing and writing and calling congressmen.

Originally posted by GREGNOW

also the gov't. can not just seize your land. It has to pay you for the land and there has to be a good reason that they need it. I have not heard of a mass of land seizing going on anywhere.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Oh yeah PAY for my land. The price THEY want to pay for it. Not what it is appraised at.

I unlike you know exactly what I am talking about since I am living through it RIGHT NOW. This is just one liberty I have given up.

As well to your argument of BIG MONEY. Big money? What are you nuts? The private corp went the E.D. route so they didn't have to put up big money. In most cases the original owner gets SCREWED so that the corporation can clean up.

I should know I am going through it right now in Colorado Springs for the corporation owned toll road. I just purchased my 2.5 acre/ 3 bd/ 2 bath place in DEC 04 as a retirement property for ~$150K and immediately invested about $20K more- this week i got papers telling me my "just compensation was going to be around $800 an acre for a grand total of only $2000 to include the house".

so who gets stuck with the mortgage? Do 'they' expect that I will continue to pay on it after my land gets taken? not I- and should my credit rating suffer because I don't want to pay on this note for property I won't own??? Where am I supposed to go for retirement? Where am I going to get the lost closing costs (substantial) to get a place comparable for retirement?

Property values in my area dropped $29,000 so far since the announcement- because this project was close held and not available to the public. My place was appraised at $190K when I bought it and I was getting a 'steal of a deal' instead it turns out that once again some wealthy person is making out at the expense of the working guy.

A private owned company IS NOT public use and is blatantly unconstitutional. If my government can't stick by the very document that separates it from the rest of the governments of the world I will have a huge problem remaining in the military defending a useless (will be proven so) piece of paper and all the years of past service and sacrifice become not only a spit in the face but also a double whammy of brass knuckles.

if the corporation wants MY property they need to make an offer I am willing to accept for it else look elsewhere- this is called capitalism- and yes I will want a bit more than $190K because of the amount of labor i have put into my FIRST home on top of the $$ I invested, plus moving expenses, plus monies just lost in the closing costs, + something for the shear inconvenience of the whole issue. After a lifetime of service to this nation- I expect no less nor should any citizen of this country.

Have you for one second considered that rights are infringed even if you are not currently USING THEM. Example you have a car parked in your driveway and obviously not using at the moment- it doesn't matter that you might need it someday but I come along and being bigger than you decide to take and keep your car. Or I decide to give you $100 for your $90,000 Porsche because I do not agree with the 'appraised' or public opinion of the value of your car. I guess under YOUR reasoning I have not violated your rights by taking your car. Same with the constitution. Most people don't need to exercise their rights everyday but it is important that when we need them our rights are there. Else send me your address and I'll be by shortly for your car/ furniture/ etc.

the constitution is a black and white document and interpreting it is the same. What do some people not get about SHALL and SHALL NOT???

gregnow, let's use common sense. Do you really believe that if police search the 10th passenger traveling on the subway system in NYC that carries 4-5 million people each day they will hit the needle in the haystack when if you think about it, NYC has never been a victim of suicide bombings with the exception of WTC 93 and 01? This sounds ridiculously stupid to me. It has nothing to do with combatting terrorism because genuine terrorism is the birthchild of this nation's foreign policy the last 40 years.

There is an enormous difference between increasing security and living in de facto police state.

Ask yourself this. Why is the government using subway searches and other security related nonsense programs when the overwhelming majority of people who come to this country illegally and may be terrorists or criminals are coming here from the Southern border?

Let's imagine that the U.S. is one giant house/mansion. So the policy of this government relating to stopping terrorism and increasing security is to "patch up" the window that the plane flew through on 911 but leave the front and back doors to the house WIDE OPEN? You have got to be kidding me.

The government's response to securing this nation is a joke when you look at the borders and anyone who believes that checkpoints for commuters on mass transit is in anyway shape or form a useful deterent against future terrorist attacks is either an unwitting accomplice of ineffective policy or a complete and utter moron who believes such fantasies of governments caring about the people they govern.

Everything that has been done so far to stop another 9/11 has actually succeeded in facilitating the conditions conducive to creating several more new 9/11's. And this government has been warning of "imminent" new 9/11 style attacks 100% guaranteed to arrive here any day now.

When you look at 9/11 and other terror attacks just ask Cui Bono? Who benefits? We are living every day scared to death that today will be the last day we live. But hasn't that been the case all our lives with or without bad Arabs hurting us with their religious fanaticism?

"Once a government resorts to terror against its own population to get what it wants, it must keep using terror against its own population to get what it wants. A government that terrorizes its own people can never stop. If such a government ever lets the fear subside and rational thought return to the populace, that government is finished." -Michael Rivero


[edit on 31-7-2005 by RebelSaint]

REBELSAINT, you miss the point, it is like a needle in a haystack, but it still sends the message to terrorist's that SOMETHING is being done on the subway and they at least have a chance of being searched if they want to try and walk onto the subway with a bomb. the other option is to do nothing which to me makes no common sense.
At least if a guy looks nervous and is sweating and looks like he has something to hide, then police can stop him and ask to check him and his stuff out.
This is more what the police are interested in, is people who look suspicious on the subway, they are not interested in stopping the average NYC's on the subway, they can't, there are to many.

Launchpad, i am sorry if this is happening to you and it is wrong and unfair. I have serious doubts though that after you spent almost 200,000 on the property that you have only been offered 2000 to buy it out. It sounds like a court case that you could easily win. you may lose you property but you sure as heck can at least get back wht you put into it.
Either way i think you are being wronged. but your case is also not happening to people on mass levels. most american's do not own land that the gov't wants anyway as most american's only own their front or back yard and no real land to begin with.
It is still wrong that someone can do that to you though, but the main thing people are crying about on this thread is about the stepped up bag searches in NYC that does not affect them anyway, but they say it does.

What about the Southern border? You rather search for the needle in the haystack or atleast present the image that we are guarding against another attack when it is already most likely too late at that stage to prevent a subway bomb from going off but leave the ability to come to this country unmolested?

If a true subway bomber was stopped at a NYC subway checkpoint, whats that going to accomplish? Freeze your under arrest? How about BOOM YOUR DEAD? Isn't that the goal of the terrorists? To kill enough of us to force the rest into submission and retreat? Dozens and Hundreds will still die. Mission accomplished.... for the terrorists.

WAIT A MINUTE!

So you're saying they took my liberties?


When? Where? How? Who? Why?.....

Actually REBELSAINT, just because a bomber has a bomb in a bag does not mean he can not be stopped from setting it off. He still has to do something to set it off. If police stop a guy and then he looks like he is fumbling to do something like set off his bomb, then they can stop him.
It's not like a bomber is halted by police and then he can just think in his mind that he wants his bomb to go off and it's going to go off. On top of that he may not even be a suicide bomber and he may not want to die. Bags can be placed somewhere and the person can leave and then set off the bomb and live to bomb again.
So yes, i still thing it is useful to do more bag searches on the NYC subway.
as far as the Southern border, you did not read my other posts. i have already said enough is not being done and i even mentioned the containers in our water ports and our food and water supplies.

But this is my message. Why let the terrorists COME INTO THE COUNTRY, ASSEMBLE THE WEAPONS TO KILL U.S. CITIZENS, AND THEN GO TO THEIR DESTINATION AND HOPEFULLY WE HAVE A 1 IN 10 SHOT OF CATCHING THEM? WHY OH WHY IS THIS THE POLICY? I know that we have agents doing everything we can in all sectors of security but it is blatently obvious that the real crime/terrorist fighting tools are not being used on the terrorists but on the American people to terrorize them into accepting the myth that terrorism can strike them at any time.

Wouldn't the government want to secure the borders and harbors so that the odds of the terrorists succeeding would be 10% vs 90% chance of them being caught in time? Why are we the people suddenly the underdogs against these amateur criminals? It's because the government wants us to be.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by RebelSaint]

the bottom line is... we won't

Originally posted by GREGNOW

If it looks like they are goiung to pass laws that actually are going to impede on our freedoms in a REAL way, they that is the time to do something about it. Right now though you are complaining about things that don't even affect you or the majority of Americans. And that is just the simple truth that you can't accept, because you think you are on some kind of justice crusade that gives you purpose, yet right now there are no laws changing your life or freedom in any way that even matters.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

In a REAL way? Exactly what is that?? What you think they are going to SUDDENLY take it all? Did you hear about WWII? Did Hitler take everything at once before HE sized power??? (and you know HE blew up his own capital building and blamed it on the Russians, right??) Here is a big clue: THEY WILL TAKE YOU RIGHTS SLOWLY . A quote I see around frequently:

First they came for the communists,
I did not speak out
because I was not a communist.

When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out
because I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

This by the way was written by Martin Niemöller who lived through the exact situation.

Did you READ the Patriot Act (PA)??? Or the BILL OF RIGHTS Or are you babbling with zero knowledge on the subject?

Does the right to know WHY you are being detained apply to the average citizen? I think so the Bill of Rights is pretty specific.

Does the average citizen have the need for a right to have a lawyer present during questioning? I think so the Bill of Rights is pretty specific.

Does the average citizen have the right to innocent until proven guilty? I think so the Bill of Rights is pretty specific.

Does the average citizen have the right to be presented a search warrant BEFORE a search specifically stating WHERE is going to be search, and WHAT they are searching for? I think so the Bill of Rights is pretty specific.

Does the average citizen have the right to own property without fear from the government or other private parties taking it? I think so the Bill of Rights is pretty specific.

Ok, so these are only a few specifically mentioned in the PA and all gone the way of the DODO. And sure on most days any given citizen MIGHT not NEED to exercise them. Our forefathers put them there specifically because they had lived through more oppressive governments and SEEN these things abused. Someone once said, "he who fails to note history is doomed to repeat it" - I say, "here we come in a hand basket! Thank you civics teachers and well intentioned individuals without a clue."

Sorry for the clichés but have you heard The road to hell is paved with good intentions ???

For your sake I hope you never suffer a case of mistaken identity with someone who is on the wrong side of the law. You will be screaming a different story about rights you are having violated- rights you cheerfully gave up for a false sense of security. these same rights you never would have needed beforehand. These same rights you said only criminals need.

No amount of cracking down with more restrictive laws is going to prevent terrorism. To see that just take a look at IRAQ. We have some of the strictest laws in place with the highest ratio of 'cops' anywhere on the planet and not doing a darn thing about the car bombings/ suicide bombers or anything else for that matter.

The people of this country and our constitution are not really in threat of annihilation from terrorists but it sure as heck is threatened from a bunch of well intended individuals that failed both history class and civics.

What should we do about it then? BE PREPARED I liked the idea of the port inspections. That is being proactive NOT violating the constitution. I like the idea of tighter boarder security for Mexico AND Canada. That too is proactive and does not violate rights. I like the thought of hiring more firemen, & more EMTs because WHEN (laws or no laws) another attack happens they can limit the actual carnage and it does not violate the rights of every individual even if those individuals are not currently exercising their rights.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Actually REBELSAINT, just because a bomber has a bomb in a bag does not mean he can not be stopped from setting it off. He still has to do something to set it off. If police stop a guy and then he looks like he is fumbling to do something like set off his bomb, then they can stop him.
It's not like a bomber is halted by police and then he can just think in his mind that he wants his bomb to go off and it's going to go off. On top of that he may not even be a suicide bomber and he may not want to die. Bags can be placed somewhere and the person can leave and then set off the bomb and live to bomb again.
So yes, i still thing it is useful to do more bag searches on the NYC subway.
as far as the Southern border, you did not read my other posts. i have already said enough is not being done and i even mentioned the containers in our water ports and our food and water supplies.

three words- DEAD MAN SWITCH. Lets go boom. better to catch 'em atthe boarder like someone else said. In the subway too late. just look how much terror the second and "would be" bombing in London caused. about twice the amount of the first!

Just that fact that someone is caught with what looked like a bomb is enough to cause terror- now, to bring the class all together again . . . .

What is the purpose of a terrorist????

-and-

How is it being filled?

The modern day snail's pace, subtle erosion of individual liberties has been in evidence for at least a century. Probably conceptually the plan dates back to Roman times, and the idea of the marine law, and the lack of individual freedom being the rule once onboard the naval ship, with the captain being the sole authority.
Income tax
drivers licences
birth certificates
social insurance/security numbers'
conscription
expropriation
ad infinitum, ad nauseum

The very effective method to erase ever more freedom is called: problem reaction solution. Create a problem, the public will react and demand a solution, which was the aim all along.
It works like a charm.
Security is an illusion. What nation has the highest security? Israel? and which nation has the most terror attacks? Freedom is the best security.
One of the founding fathers of the US said, " Those who will sacrifice their freedom for security deserve neither."
When do we get them back? best guess, after the apocalypse, just going on the past record, which has been a steady loss of freedoms.

Also you say you have "several" brothers on trumped up charges. Come on already. I could see the possiblity of one brother but you say "several". so let me guess they are all innocnet and the police just felt like framing all of them or something.
What are the charges? Are they all in on different charges or were they brought in as a group?
[edit on 31-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Just one group, or label. Anarchy.

You are right, I am wrong, there are no political prisoners, No rights have been infringed upon. Carry on everyone, sorry for the mistake.

Did I cover all bases?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The very effective method to erase ever more freedom is called: problem reaction solution. Create a problem, the public will react and demand a solution, which was the aim all along.
It works like a charm.

BG13 has got it all in one... Would now be the right time for me to redirect your attention to something that may (or may not) have already come to your attention... The CIA created Osama Bin Laden...

That being said - I dont even think he was responsible... I think the real perpertrators were the US government and its Shadow Government... the 19 hi-jackers were in reality brainwashed minions for the NWO... Think about it, how hard could it be to construct people into these kinds of tools... Not very...

Originally posted by launchpad
A quote I see around frequently:

First they came for the communists

Yeah.. I quoted that in this exact thread.... not that I'm blaming you or anything, the point needs to be driven home.

-koji K.

Originally posted by launchpad
First they came for the communists

Precicely, and us Communists in this day and age have to fight tooth and nail to be heard on almost any issue... Because we were turned into something "evil", then into something solved, and now nobody even has any idea about what Communism actually is...

Instead they revert to dismissing it - because of some facists like Stalin... Who in reality went completely against what communism was all about... Lenins last words (on his death bed might I add) to Trotsky were something to the effect of "What ever you do you must stop Stalin..."

But look at what the west (mainly) America has done... They are doing the same thing to the "Terrorists" today... Scape-goats... Guerilla Warfare has a new name and it is "Terror"...

But think about it... What is worse... some guys with plastic explosives made out of bleach and the willingness to die... Or an empire that spends more than half of the world put together building sophisticated weaponry that is targetted by satalites and used take out thousands of lives at a time...

You tell me...