And the truth shall set you free! (The End)

Pacman well said, duality is an enemy of humanity!

I also know that many see the subliminal attacks made by the free masons on this site! I have learned a great deal about masonry from masons here, and I wouldn’t want to see ATS without them! They belong here as much as the anti-masons!

Sebatwerk please feel free to continue the arguing and badgering, but you would do your self and the free mason a favour if you’d answer the questions I have repeatedly asked you!

To the Public Extermination Project, I have to read up on that.

Thank you for adding to this thread!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Sebatwerk please feel free to continue the arguing and badgering, but you would do your self and the free mason a favour if you’d answer the questions I have repeatedly asked you!

You haven't asked me ANYTHING. You keep saying this, and keep accusing me of avoiding a subject (something I have NEVER done), but your refuse to simply repeat the questions that you supposedly asked me. Why don't you start there, and REPEAT these nonexistant questions?

[edit on 31-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

you must have missed them!

This post!

posted on 22-8-2005 at 03:06 Post Number: 1629811 (post id: 1651704)

My last reference!

Sebatwerk!

Guess you missed my post in all the non topic conversation!

But any mason could answer them! ML? DF? AK? Senrak? anyone?

And again i remind you about the missed post!

To sebatwerk, you must me disinformation incarnate!

Ill do it easy for you then!

quote:
Free Masons know that real information "can't" be known! If real information could be had by every one, it would immediately become worthless. Information, by its very definition, implies IGNORANCE and EXCLUSIVITY. They require ignorance in order to be informed


quote:
*******36*******
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*09101112131415*
0102030405060708


quote:
they worship a God called the great architect of the universe, this is very close to the name the great architect used in Egypt as a name for their pharaohs. Also their prophet or savior named Solomon, is actually only one word repeated three times, Sol = sun, Om = Sun and On = sun


quote:
The Hyksos King David aka. Psusennes II father of Solomon aka Sheshonq I


Lets just start with this! Shall we! And isn’t me reposting old quotes a waste of bandwith! I gave you multible options didn’t say that you should answer all of them!


Oh and a personal question!

quote:
GOATU = Smitty
He’s going to get the goat
You are going to ride the goat
Look out for the goat


Comments please! perhaps i could even say TGOATU = T GOAT U = The Goat You?

The questions refrashed!

Ok Sebatwerk!

So answer this please: (confirm or deny)

quote:
Free Masons know that real information "can't" be known! If real information could be had by every one, it would immediately become worthless. Information, by its very definition, implies IGNORANCE and EXCLUSIVITY. They require ignorance in order to be informed


quote:
You need to first imprison the "human" mind with a rigid belief and a fundamentally limited sense of reality - the "sheep" pen. It doesn't much matter what the beliefs may be, so long as they are rigid and discourage free thought and open-minded questioning. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Zionism, Fascism, Capitalism, Communism, Liberalism, Socialism, Absolutism, Agnosticism, Altruism, Atheism, Determinism, Dualism, Egoism, Emperism, Evolutionism, Hedonism, Idealism, Materialism, Monism, Mysticism, Naturalism, Pantheism, Pluralism, Pragmatism, Rationalism and Theism etc.
This is what the Free Masons implore, and use on their initiates! All "ism" is a control form; it is used to keep the "sheep" in place! It is used to manipulate the "sheep" into thinking they know what is going on! But they don’t. You then encourage those who follow these rigid beliefs to impose them on others and make life very difficult and unpleasant for anyone who does not conform.


quote:
*******36*******
******3435******

*****313233*****
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***2223242526***
**161718192021**
*09101112131415*
0102030405060708


quote:
The Masons are sun worshippers as almost every one else is, they worship a God called the great architect of the universe, this is very close to the name the great architect used in Egypt as a name for their pharaohs. Also their prophet or savior named Solomon, is actually only one word repeated three times, Sol = sun, Om = Sun and On = sun, so here we have a name that is Sunsunsun.


quote:
So lets start with a famous Masonic character, the hero Hiram Abif (“the widow son”) as he is named by the masons, are not as they say a Babylonian Chief Architect but actually an Egyptian architect named Harem Atif (“Hiram is my father”) which was under the rule of the great pharaoh Sheshonq I, who is the true King Solomon. So here we see that their so called history intermingle or let me say this “it is the Egyptian history”


quote:
The Sumerian history includes a tale about King Sargon, the Akkadian King. Which resembles, or let me say; IT IS THE HISTORY OF THE LATER HEBREW MOSES.
This tells us again that it is the same history re-written, when history talks about the son of god, what they mean is the son of the SUN. Jesus was not the son of god, but the son of the sun, as pharaohs and Sumerian Kings etc. also called them selves. As we see the same gods under different names, we also se the same Kings, pharaohs and emperors under different names.
For reference we can take into account, the Sumerian tablets which is from around 2000 BC. They speak of the "King in the basket", "EDEN" and "The great flood".


quote:
The Hyksos are known as the "shepherd Kings" and "rulers of foreign land", they are said to have invaded Egypt around 1700 BC, they put into power these "priest Kings" or pharaohs, who were then learned about the secrets of Keops i.e. pyramid of Giza aka. Mount ZION. And about the mystery schools, i.e. the Free Masonic "fore fathers"!
Now who was one of those "priest Kings"? Pharaoh Sheshonq I, aka. King Solomon i.e. the savior of the Free Masons? As evidence suggest the Hyksos are a bloodline from ancient Sumer, two Sumerian Kings were called "shepherd kings",


quote:
But evidence tells me that the "shepherd Kings" didn't invade, they were all ready there! They just started a "revolution", the "sheep" vs. the reigning "bull", hence their name "shepherd Kings"! So here we have Aries vs. Taurus i.e. shepherd and cattle story aka. Jacob vs. Laban. Aries vs. Pisces i.e. shepherd and fishers of men etc. And now we have Pisces vs. Aquarius. I could go on and on with examples like this, etc. Abraham is in fact a pharaoh called Sheshi, whose throne name was Mayebra! Abraham’s son Isaac was a Hyksos pharaoh called Anathar, and Isaacs’s son Jacob was again a Hyksos pharaoh called Yacobaam.
Yacobaam had the 12 sons that founded Is-Ra-El i.e. Isis - Ra - Eli or the trinity if youd like. aka. the 12 tribes of Is-Ra-El.
Then around 1600 BC, the people of Abraham left Egypt to invade Jerusalem, also we have the Jewish writer Josephus who describes the fleeing Hyksos as "our ancestors". But the Hyksos did return to Egypt, as written in the story of Joseph. The Hyksos have deep ties to the Egyptian mystery schools at Heliopolis


quote:
The Hyksos King David aka. Psusennes II father of Solomon aka Sheshonq I, were "priest Kings", this is why it is told that Sol-Om-On, had these great magic powers. Also King David aka. Psunennes II, was the First to put hieroglyphs in the Keops pyramid i.e. pyramid at Giza aka. Mount Zion. So to set the record straight Solomon’s temple is not in Babylon but Tanis i.e. Tcian or Zian, on the eastern delta.
Then we have the BenBen stone; which stands inside the temple of the phoenix, (remember that the phoenix is to be used in the Free Masonic Great Seal of the US. currency.)


quote:
The Babylonian trinity consist of; Nimrod (the fish), his son Tammuz (who died for our sins), Semiramis (the dove) aka. Father, son and the holy ghost. As we see, we also have Mary (virgin mother of Jesus, who is Isis (virgin mother of Horus) and Semiramis (virgin mother of Tammuz). Tammuz was also the son of god aka. the SUN! This is why the Free Masons, orientate their temples to the east, they face GOD! Also the Nimrod/Semiramis story is the same as the Osiris/Isis story.


quote:
Free Masons know this, they know that all religion is from pre-Christian or pre-Jewish rituals, where we worship the sun and the ancient bloodlines of Hyksos etc. Now lets focus a little on Hiram or should i say Harem, Harem is a priestly title in Egypt as with Haremheb etc. in Arab temple mount is Harem a-Sharif


quote:
To the coronation of the British monarchs, we see it is very much indeed inspired by Egypt, it is actually the same coronation performed by the high priest of the old mystery schools! We have the “god save the queen” which was used in the Old Testament at King Sauls coronation, we have the “scone stone”, the scepter and the rod, and also the anointment which have deep ties to Egypt and the serpent (crocodile). This was used in coronation ceremonies by the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs. This is used to elevate the monarch to the rank of HIGH PRIEST!
Then of course, we must not forget the CROWN aka. The city within the city, this is a privately owned corporation owned by the Free Masons, it is always “run” by a council of 12-14 men, and the Lord Mayor of the city is ALWAYS a Free Mason. The sitting monarch has to bow and get permission to enter by the Lord Mayor.


quote:
GOATU = Smitty
He’s going to get the goat
You are going to ride the goat
Look out for the goat


If you can provide valid answers, then I will perhaps accept them, and we can move on to some other questions!

The original post and questions!


Just answer the refrashed questions if youd like, i understand if some of it is secret! but please just say so iinstead of ignoring it!

I have learned to respect you secrecy, i just think it is being used against you!

Hail

Bilbo

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Just answer the refrashed questions if youd like, i understand if some of it is secret! but please just say so iinstead of ignoring it!

I have learned to respect you secrecy, i just think it is being used against you!

You did not ask even ONE question in that entire post! They are all statements! What do you expect me to answer?!? I don't understand what you're getting at. The quotes above mean NOTHING to me as a mason, so I don't understand what non-existant questions you expect me to answer.

If you want me to answer something, you need to ask the question FIRST. I was never avoiding your post, or your questions, because you never asked any! Understand?

OK great god of the English language!

Ill put them out of the rhetorical box, and put it into basics, just for you mate!

Is it true that the name Solomon is sun repeated 3 times?

What does the Hyksos mean to Free Masonry?

What do you say to recent claims about the Babylonian empire and Egyptian empire being run by the same ruler i.e. Pharaoh Sheshonq a.k.a. King Solomon?

Is it true that masons think that real information can’t be known by everyone?

Is the goat a reference to Baphomet, or the other way around?


Do you have any comments on?

”He’s going to get the goat”
”You are going to ride the goat”
”Look out for the goat”

Is the symbolism of the goat related to TGOATU?


Thank you sebat for adding to this thread!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
OK great god of the English language!

No God, just explaining to you why I didn't answer. You repeatedly accused me of dodging questions that you never asked.

Ill put them out of the rhetorical box, and put it into basics, just for you mate!

Much appreciated. I'm ready, and I give you my word that I'm answering these questions honestly.

Is it true that the name Solomon is sun repeated 3 times?

I don't know, and I don't think its possible to know. His name could probably mean many things, but I don't know any of them.

What does the Hyksos mean to Free Masonry?

I don't know what the Hyskos is. Wikipedia defines the Hyksos as The Hyksos (Egyptian heka khasewet) were an ethnically mixed group of Western Asiatic people who appeared in the eastern Nile Delta during the Second Intermediate Period. They overthrew the weak Egyptian Thirteenth Dynasty...

As for what that means to Freemasonry: absolutely nothing. What makes you think that it would be anything of significance?

What do you say to recent claims about the Babylonian empire and Egyptian empire being run by the same ruler i.e. Pharaoh Sheshonq a.k.a. King Solomon?

Ummm, I don't really care one way or another, it's something that happened thousands of years ago. Reasonably thinking, I don't believe it to be possible, but I really don't know. Why would you think this would be of any importance to me?

Is it true that masons think that real information can’t be known by everyone?

Not at all. You are getting confused with the masonic philosophy of esoteric knowledge. Esoteric masonic knowledge, such as our modes of recognition and our rituals, is designed to be kept secret because being known by the public at large would take away the reward to masons of attaining that knowledge. It would cease to be special to masons and would, in essence, take away that which makes us masons.

Keep in mind that Freemasonry's teachings are not anything that can't be found in the Bible, they are just given a masonic spin and taught through degrees of initiation. There's nothing exclusive about the information itself.

Is the goat a reference to Baphomet, or the other way around?

What goat? Baphomet was made up by an anti-mason, trying to get people to hate Freemasons (seems like you bought it). Masons have nothing to do with goats, except for the silly joke of riding a goat during an initiation.

But, if anything, I think that baphomet was created in reference to the goat.

Do you have any comments on?

”He’s going to get the goat”
”You are going to ride the goat”
”Look out for the goat”

It's a childish, silly and completely inappropriate joke that masons like to throw around new candidates in order to make them nervous and to mess with them before their initiation. There's no truth whatsoever to it and I feel that it is VERY inappropriate to toss out a joke like that on an occasion which should be taken very seriously and very solemnly.

Is the symbolism of the goat related to TGOATU?

Symbolism of the goat?!? What are you talking about? There's no such thing.

Thank you sebat for adding to this thread!

Glad to be of service, I just wish that your questions actually had something to do with Freemasonry.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Thank you Neonhelmet, we walking wounded victims of "brother/sisterhoods" do appreciate your time and effort . As usual Sebatwerk can only insult those who aren't blinded. Again, THANK YOU!

hmm... someone is lieing freemasons aren't the "evil cult" you & Suzy are refering to. You both have the wrong info. I'm beginning to wonder just where you are researching the freemason rites and the freemasonry of the scottish Isles. How can you & suzy do this? why don't you both stop attacking sebat, actually... I insist you stop attacking sebat both of you. Grow up act your age both of you instead of playing the preschool fighting children I see on this thread thus far. Who are either of you to accuse and attack sebat calling people liars when you both don't know the person you attack or the real truth about masons. Masons are NOT! evil nor were they ever and will never be evil so stop neon & suzy grow up stop acting childish.

No God, just explaining to you why I didn't answer. You repeatedly accused me of dodging questions that you never asked.

Well it was a poor attempt at humour! Sorry Sebatwerk. Ill be more clear from now on!

Much appreciated. I'm ready, and I give you my word that I'm answering these questions honestly.
quote:

Thank you. And i trust your word!

As for what that means to Freemasonry: absolutely nothing. What makes you think that it would be anything of significance?

Just your own reference to them.

This degree teaches that all labor is honorable, and the “tolling millions” should be respected and assisted. The Phoenicians, especially those of the city of Tsidun, are remembered as those who cut cedars on Mount Libanus for Noah’s Ark, as well as the Ark of the Covenant and the temples of Jerusalem. The peoples of Phoenicia, Hiram of Tyre and Hiram Abif included, were tied to the Israelites by the fact that they shared the mysteries , and it is even said that the Etrurian and Roman colleagues of Artificers descended from them via the Hyksos. The lodge, styled a college, has two apartments. The first is a plain room which represents a workshop on Mount Libanus. Here the senior warden, or “master carpenter,” presides. The second room apartment is hung in red, lighted by 36 lights, and is called the council room of the round table. The brethren sit at a round wooden table, and the alter in the east holds the 3 great lights and an axe. Battery: [2:2:2]. The apron is white, bordered in purple, and contains a three headed serpent and a table with instruments and plans on it. The jewel is an axe and handle of gold. On the top of the handle is the signature of Noah and Solomon. In the middle of the handle are the initials of Libanus and Tsidun. On the blade are the initials of Adoniram, Cyrus, Darius, Zerubabbel, Nehemiah, Ezra (on one side), and Shem, Kham, Yapheth, Moses, Ahaliab, Betselal (on the other).

Ummm, I don't really care one way or another, it's something that happened thousands of years ago. Reasonably thinking, I don't believe it to be possible, but I really don't know. Why would you think this would be of any importance to me?

Because it back up what I claim, about the mystery schools and the Dionysian artificers!

Not at all. You are getting confused with the masonic philosophy of esoteric knowledge. Esoteric masonic knowledge, such as our modes of recognition and our rituals, is designed to be kept secret because being known by the public at large would take away the reward to masons of attaining that knowledge. It would cease to be special to masons and would, in essence, take away that which makes us masons.

Keep in mind that Freemasonry's teachings are not anything that can't be found in the Bible, they are just given a masonic spin and taught through degrees of initiation. There's nothing exclusive about the information itself

Ok thank you! That cleared that part up!

What goat? Baphomet was made up by an anti-mason, trying to get people to hate Freemasons (seems like you bought it). Masons have nothing to do with goats, except for the silly joke of riding a goat during an initiation.

But, if anything, I think that baphomet was created in reference to the goat

Well there is quite some symbology in Baphomet, are you familiar with the term hermaphrodite or dual sexuality? It is supposed to hold a great meaning i.e. the combination of man, perfection etc.

You don’t think there are any connection what so ever that the eastern star, represents a female?
And that the normal 5 pointed star represents man?
And the Star of David or should I call it the wannabee seal of Solomon is a combination of both sexes? And represents perfection?

Or:

Is the downward 5 pointed star a representation of lust i.e. man puts his genitals above his mind?
Is the upward 5 pointed star a representation of wisdom i.e. minds over body?
And again the wanabee seal of Solomon is that then a representation of perfection?


But thank you for answering; I think I might have to agree with you on this!

Do you think it is possible for hidden subliminal symbolism within freemasonry?

It's a childish, silly and completely inappropriate joke that masons like to throw around new candidates in order to make them nervous and to mess with them before their initiation. There's no truth whatsoever to it and I feel that it is VERY inappropriate to toss out a joke like that on an occasion which should be taken very seriously and very solemnly.

Ok well that actually makes sense, I think that your explanation of it, is the best I have gotten so far!

Symbolism of the goat?!? What are you talking about? There's no such thing.

Can you see it is easy for the un-initiated to see the symbols of the goat, when you joke about it? And deny it at the same time! There can be symbolic meaning in words remember that!

But I think you are correct though! This is actually the first time in a while I agree with you.
Thank you Sebatwerk for setting things straight, more questions will come. If you don’t have time to answer them its ok! No rush, no hurry, no worries, no problems mate!

Glad to be of service, I just wish that your questions actually had something to do with Freemasonry.

You are welcome, however some of it might not be related to masonry but some of it is! Wont you agree on that?

Thank you again Sebatwerk for helping me out in this thread!


And now to the fun part

hmm... someone is lieing freemasons aren't the "evil cult" you & Suzy are refering to. You both have the wrong info. I'm beginning to wonder just where you are researching the freemason rites and the freemasonry of the scottish Isles.

I am not lying, as an old mason friend of mine once told me PROOF, and I don’t mean the rapper.
Did I say evil cult? Where did I say that?
Well if you read the thread you will see I list my sources!

How can you & suzy do this?

Do what?

why don't you both stop attacking sebat, actually... I insist you stop attacking sebat both of you. Grow up act your age both of you instead of playing the preschool fighting children I see on this thread thus far. Who are either of you to accuse and attack sebat calling people liars when you both don't know the person you attack or the real truth about masons. Masons are NOT! evil nor were they ever and will never be evil so stop neon & suzy grow up stop acting childish.

Ok insist away, it won’t do you any good.
I am not attacking Sebatwerk, I have made some unfortunate remarks regarding his person but I believe I have apologized after worth, and they where all typed in anger or frustration. I think me and Sebatwerk have moved past this? I don’t know.
But then again why aren’t you defending me from the attacks Sebatwerk made on me. (Not ripping up old wounds here!)
I don’t call the individuals on this board liar! But I can see how you would get that impression; it makes a good point however. Perhaps it should be rephrased so it doesn’t seem so hostile!

Freemasonry can’t be evil, if you read what I write you would see that! But I do believe it to be used by some evil persons!

*refrains from doing something neon very well knows not to do here on ATS*

So to sum it up: it all seems to fall to the ground eh? Only the liar part really has a chance of sticking eh?

Perhaps calling people childish is considered childish?

Oh and don’t mention me and Suzy (no disrespect here) like we are a couple or hold the same beliefs we come from two different backgrounds and hold different views on things!

Read up mate instead of just spewing ignorance.


Any ways hope this clear it up otherwise you can ask again!

Who is Zehm Alohim?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

Ummm, I don't really care one way or another, it's something that happened thousands of years ago. Reasonably thinking, I don't believe it to be possible, but I really don't know. Why would you think this would be of any importance to me?

Because it back up what I claim, about the mystery schools and the Dionysian artificers!

Well I'm not really sure one way or another. While I do subscribe to the belief that Freemasonry descended from the ancient mystery schools, I can't really say if it was intentional of if the cards wqere just dealt that way. We really don't have a whole lot of information to go on in that sense.

You don’t think there are any connection what so ever that the eastern star, represents a female?
And that the normal 5 pointed star represents man?
And the Star of David or should I call it the wannabee seal of Solomon is a combination of both sexes? And represents perfection?

I don't know, I've never really thought about these issues that you are putting forward, they have never been brought up to me before. I think you may be searching a little to hard in an attempt to fid a connection.

Do you think it is possible for hidden subliminal symbolism within freemasonry?

Anything is possible, but it;s certainly not likely. Some theories state that Freemasonry did not actually descend from the temple builders of medieval England, but was actually and organization that was given a masonic theme, complete with symbolism of working tools, aprons and a backdrop of the construction of King Solomon's Temple. If this were the case, then it would make no sense that there would be other symbolism hidden between symbols that were purposefully assigned to the organization.

It's a childish, silly and completely inappropriate joke that masons like to throw around new candidates in order to make them nervous and to mess with them before their initiation. There's no truth whatsoever to it and I feel that it is VERY inappropriate to toss out a joke like that on an occasion which should be taken very seriously and very solemnly.

Ok well that actually makes sense, I think that your explanation of it, is the best I have gotten so far!

Anytime a brother makes a stupid joke about a goat, it makes me want to cringe. It's absolutely inappropriate and degrading to the entire lodge.

Can you see it is easy for the un-initiated to see the symbols of the goat, when you joke about it? And deny it at the same time! There can be symbolic meaning in words remember that!

I can see that, but I do not excuse it simply because there is SO MUCH factual and accurate information available to all people regarding Freemasonry, that for people to believe this silly nonsense shows me that they haven't bothered to do real research at all!

But I think you are correct though! This is actually the first time in a while I agree with you.
Thank you Sebatwerk for setting things straight, more questions will come. If you don’t have time to answer them its ok! No rush, no hurry, no worries, no problems mate!

Glad to hear it. If you would keep your posts down to one or two solid questions, it would make it much easier to reply.

Thank you again Sebatwerk for helping me out in this thread!

Anytime.

I am not attacking Sebatwerk, I have made some unfortunate remarks regarding his person but I believe I have apologized after worth, and they where all typed in anger or frustration. I think me and Sebatwerk have moved past this? I don’t know.

Everything is okie dokie, but I DO appreciate MisticDragon's attempt at helping me out. The truth is that I do get attacked a lot here, but I think NeonHelmet has eased up in regards to his attitude, and I have as well.

This thread is absurd, what were we talking about?

Oh and, Sebatwerk, can you STOP doing the latter with your text. It would be GREATLY appreciated.



THANKS!

Guy Kawasaki

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Oh and, Sebatwerk, can you STOP doing the latter with your text. It would be GREATLY appreciated.

What exactly are you talking about? The latter? Please explain.

Focus on not exactly who is an enemy of the truth as labels can be misleading, but what it is. Then you'll understand who, what, where, and how. I think intelligent people today are aware of bits and pieces, but the main thing is to get ALL aware of some understanding. Light does cast out darkness. Currently darkness is here and approaching climax. Read this, it's long, but it'll bring you into the light.

phoenixsourcedistributors.com...

The 'Jewish' title can be misleading, never assume anything.

Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you mad, now that you're mad, let's all fix it together. Then we'll be free.

>>>I particularly like the 'Facts are Facts from one "Jew" to another Long buried truth MUST be revealed' bookmark.

Hi,

I would like to drop a few sentences with my reasoning about the freemasonry. I thought that it would be inappropriate to create a new thread on this subject, so I'll try to do that here. What I expect from YOU is the critics.

First of all, I am quite new here (one week or so). When I first found this forum I thought for myself: "wow, what a wonderful place - that's exactly what I was looking for - a huge resource of thoughts on questionable, sometimes mysterious, subjects. I spent several hours browsing through "secret societies" section as I have been particularly interested in that. I already had basic knowledge, and I thought that I knew what I could expect, however, after those several hours spent here, I could hardly sleep the following night - it was really thought provoking. Nevertheless, I soon realised that it is extremely easy to clasify all posts on freemasonry into two groups: the pro-masonic & anti-masonic. The latter are much more interesting to me, but pro-masonic might also make you think a little bit. When I say "think", I mean in a sense: who are those people who posted them? Well, the two things contradict at this point - most of those pro-masonic ideas are posted by masons themselves (at least they claim so), but, as I know, children are not allowed to join this fraternity, am I wrong? This pro-masonic mumbo-jumbo was so dull and childish that after some time I just started to skip those posts - they were identical, without any mature reasoning behind them - repeating the same things through all the threads. Now, I really start to believe that those people are too much obsessed with their thinking about some kind of supreme being.

On the other hand, the anti-masonic stuff also sometimes seemed to be written by special people - I would call them paranoid people. Well, I do hope that they can sleep well with all this fear in their heads.


OK, now after the tiny prologue, it's time to express my reasoning on feemasonry. *sebatwerk* if you read this - do not expect to hear any scientific ideas here - I repeat it is only my personal opinion, which could be clasified to be somewhere in the middle comparing with other posted here.

Heh, yeah, you say freemasons are a secret organization, or to be more precise - an organization with secrets, however, how could you imagine 6 million people keeping those secrets unrevealed? This would be impossible especially in the modern world - the best example I can give you here is the so called secret rituals which are so thoroughly described on the internet, all the pictures and symbols, books written by ex-masons, etc. And it seems that masons themselves understand this fact very good, that's why they all the time claimed to be so society friendly and open to everyone. Somewhere I read that nowadays the biggest part of freemasons have the 3rd degree (master mason), why are the apprentice and the fellow craft getting extinct? Well, I think I get it - some long time ago freemasons had been thoroughly inspected before they joined the fraternity, and this inspection was all they needed to be sure that no strangers join them.
What's the situation nowadays? Oh, much tougher - the only way to keep outsiders calm is to convince them that what you're doing is completely innocent and open to everyone. In these days many people are considering joining freemasons (well, not that many, but still enough - 6 million are more than the population of my country - not to mention that it's way too much for any secret organization). So what are masons doing? They still inspect those willing to join, but no one can be aware whether it's the right person to join. In my opinion, that's why the first two degrees became an extention of this inspection process, when those who are not suitable, or who feel that's not for them, quit.

But still, there's too much people to share any secrets (if such secrets exist at all), therefore, to my mind, only those in the highest degrees understand what's the real purpose of such fraternity, they make the decisions, they control the herd of sheeps and, although it's is strange to me, they probably find it useful to have such a naive army. When you climb up the degrees, you become too much related to the fraternity, so it means you are ready to hear more truth. I believe it is in that way.

Well, I would be more than excited to read one day of any kind of proof that Priory of Sion really exists, but it's so secret that nobody can come closer to it. That's exciting, isn't it? We all come here because we seek mysteries to fill some hole in our lives, we seek adventure - to explore the unexplored. Would you be happy to hear that fremasonry has no secrets? I don't think so. Neither do I. And even if they really have an extreme influence on everything that happens around the globe, I care very little about that, even though this might be the real secret they are trying to hide. Masons help each other, so no wonder why many 33rd degree owners are well known people, no matter if it's on a global or on a city scale. Maybe their help not always has the legal form, this might also be a secret? Why not?

There are freemasons in my country as well, and as I know there are at least 3 lodges, however, some people call it a masonic-wanna-be club some grown-ups playing hide-and-seek games, that's pathetic. Nevertheless, those people seem to be afraid of revealing their personalities, and, according to some articles, not everyone could join them. Well, I believe they're also trying to conquer the world

By the way, could you explain me the meaning of the symbols and the text in this picture:
www.freemasonry.lt...


Well, I think that's it. The purpose of my post as I said was to hear your comments. I am not that much interested in this subject to keep digging deeper, I lost my belief in freemasons being something secret, what a dissappointment Maybe your comments will inspire me? Freemasons are obsessed with usage of special symbols - which help relate them with ancient world or even satanism. However, I believe that when you dig enough in any subject you can find interesting relations, but who can proove that it's not a coincidence? Maybe the people who started this fraternity were interested in all kinds of symbols but had no real understanding of them and copied them in fraternity's activities. Then by time, the meaning of the symbols changed and it's now as we know it. For example, swastika is a symbol of sun, but what does sun has to do with Nazi's? Was Hitler the sun of the Europe? Heh, what a coincidence, maybe he really was, to some extent...

------> Wishing all of you good luck!

And I would really welcome any comments as it would let me know if my understanding makes sence.
Yeah, and those freemasons around, please do not bother to criticize because I already know what you have to say - you repeated that in hundreds of posts.

P.S. I'm not a native English speaker, as you've probably noticed

Pacman!

It is dangerous grounds you are moving on mate, you will be attacked as an anti-Semite by the free masons on this board!
Try to not talk about Zionism and Jews that is what they are waiting for, more labels to cast on the anti masons. (Don’t know if you are one!)
It is funny that you can’t be critical or sceptic about Jews without being anti-Semite or a Nazi, funny says I, why is that says I?
Why can’t you say something negative about the Zionist movement without being called a racist? Wat is that, anti-Semitism and racism has nothing to do with Zionism which is a political party or ideology if you please!
I think you speak wise words; this is not saying much since I am an ignorant troll!

Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you mad, now that you're mad, let's all fix it together. Then we'll be free

Funny how beautiful the truth is?

When going against the enemy of the truth, you understand the head, where it is and all else follows. You get me?

I follow, but sometimes when you can’t see the head it is hard to know where to start! Do you get me?

Thank you Pacman for adding to this thread!


The Conspiracy Follower!

Where are you from?

I agree with you on your observation of the pro and anti Masonic posts and content! The pro’s spew propaganda and the anti’s spew paranoia, well said sir!

I have been on this board for almost 18 months, and I have started out as major anti mason, almost on the brink of delusion, and moved far (according to me!) on my personal opinion about the free masons! Now I would say that I approve of the fraternity (not that they need it!) and have accepted it (not that they need that either) I still have my theory about them being connected to Egypt, and being a tool of the Illuminati! This I cannot prove, hence according to free mason logic, it isn’t!

But then I would say; then prove to me that God or TGAOTU made the universe! This can’t be proven either!

Evolution uses a best-fit proof.

Psychology uses a statistical proof.

Astronomy uses a causality proof.

God requires an existance proof.


Proving that the concessive and obsessive use of symbolism and the clear connection with people and events is hard to prove that it isn’t a coincidence, but I think proving that it is, is much much harder!

Overall I think it is a good post on your view, and I concur with most of it!

However the symbolism is clear, the symbols have meant the same thing if you take the Summer – Egypt – Babylon – Israel – Greece – Rome – Franks – Dutch – English – American – Israel connection. In my opinion!

But good post and thank you for adding to this thread!


Hail

Neon

[edit on 6-9-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Thank you, I really like your thoughts and appreciate them.

I'm from Lithuania (pop. 3.5mln). I've just found out that there's a Grand lodge in my country and some 60 members in it, however, the traditions of freemasonry date late 18th century there and some really historically famous persons are said to had been freemasons. Nevertheless, due to several occupations their activity was stopped and the recent freemasonic activity, as I know it, started some 12 years ago.

Ok, I know it's also a conspiracy, but just an hour ago I read about the connection of honorary 33rd degree and Illuminati - to me it makes a lot of sense as it expands my reasoning towards the direction I was moving to. Organization within organization - double security - if I was to create a secret fraternity that would be the best way to start from. I am sure I'll search for some extra information about that.

Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower
Ok, I know it's also a conspiracy, but just an hour ago I read about the connection of honorary 33rd degree and Illuminati - to me it makes a lot of sense as it expands my reasoning towards the direction I was moving to. Organization within organization - double security - if I was to create a secret fraternity that would be the best way to start from. I am sure I'll search for some extra information about that.

I can tell you from personal experience of being a Freemason, and having several 33rd degree masons who are personal friends, and mentors, of mine, that this is absolutely not the case. All the legitimate research you can do on the subject will point you in a completely different direction. But hey, it's your mind; believe the nonsense if you want to.

Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower
Thank you, I really like your thoughts and appreciate them.

I'm from Lithuania (pop. 3.5mln). I've just found out that there's a Grand lodge in my country and some 60 members in it, however, the traditions of freemasonry date late 18th century there and some really historically famous persons are said to had been freemasons. Nevertheless, due to several occupations their activity was stopped and the recent freemasonic activity, as I know it, started some 12 years ago.

Ok, I know it's also a conspiracy, but just an hour ago I read about the connection of honorary 33rd degree and Illuminati - to me it makes a lot of sense as it expands my reasoning towards the direction I was moving to. Organization within organization - double security - if I was to create a secret fraternity that would be the best way to start from. I am sure I'll search for some extra information about that.

You do that, but if the theory about the 33rds could hold you have to take into account that not all 33rds have power!!!

Also what Sebat says is true! there are alot of uninitiated 33rds!!

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I can tell you from personal experience of being a Freemason, and having several 33rd degree masons who are personal friends, and mentors, of mine, that this is absolutely not the case. All the legitimate research you can do on the subject will point you in a completely different direction. But hey, it's your mind; believe the nonsense if you want to.

dear sebatwerk, I respect you as any other person here on the forum, but please, you don't need to appeal to my conscience as you have just did, because I think that I am fully capable of making my own decisions.

concerning the 33rd degree, well, who knows... to me that doesn't prove anything. Human beings are such an unpredictable creations as "windows 98" - you never know when the blue screen error is going to flash. Maybe it is my fault that I'm trust-no-one kind of a person but that strategy works fine in my environment. Mentors, teachers... whoever they are, can you trust former strangers in any fraternity? Your answer would be yes, but I have some doubts about that. Haven't you read about the people trying to find out who actually their grandfathers were, or why does even the grand lodge of england has a special e-mail to ask questions about genealogy? According to you, there's nothing to hide, but the reality contradicts you. If I were you, I would be worried about the fraternity if I knew that 33rd degree exists, but that it can't be apporached. Communication solves many problems, it makes the crowds silent, and no matter if it is an ancient Rome, or a modern London. Heh, I've just caught myself being slightly philosophical...

ok, there are still several questions and maybe someone could answer them:
1. What might be the percentage of 33rd degree owners among freemasons? (masonicinfo.com several times mentioned 5% - to my mind it's really too much. If there're ~6mln. freemasons, then according to this statistics there should be ~300k 33rd degree freemasons. It's is really surprising - could you then say what's so honorary about it then? 0.05% would sound better to me.)
2. How long does it take to reach 33rd? (or more precisely, who might be the youngest one about whom you're aware?)



Oh, and one more thing which I forgot to include in my previous post. I will say this not from the global perspective, but from masonic activity in my country. Freemasons are supposed to be a charitable organization, and what's more important they unite quite rich people (or at least the percentage of them in the fraternity is bigger than in society as a whole), however, in my country this strange man club supports one small orphan shelter. Actually, it is a good thing, but a surprising as well - there are individuals who are more generous than the whole fraternity. Obviously, there should be other, more important things to do. If the welfare of the society was your goal, I believe there would be plenty of material claiming how good freemasons are, but now I haven't heard of any.

And another thing, I spent quite a lot of time browsing the web but was unable to find any cue of fraternity's meeting agenda. What's the point of those meetings? Are you being taught anything during them? How often it takes place?


-------
I want to believe, there's something to be be hidden from ordinary people, otherwise, I am simply wasting my precious time I would even consider becoming a freemason one day, however, it might be that I am not naive enough for that

Sebaterk:

All the legitimate research you can do on the subject will point you in a completely different direction. That statement is loaded with question begging. What is legitimate research on this subject? Why does he need to read legitimate research? What is that "different direction"? You have merely put yourself out there with a conjecture which has not been substantiated at all. However, you implied it like you could make a generalization from it.

Also, your logic is faulty. While we all appreciate Masonic comments on here, because your experience is X, that does not imply that an organization Y is of a particular essence.

As for the "latter", that referred to using CAPS. Which is something YOU really like to do!

TAKE CARE,

Guy



[edit on 6-9-2005 by Guy Kawasaki]