And the truth shall set you free! (The End)

maybe if you were in a monastic order which took donations from self sufficient farmers who had never heard of money. You could then spend all day preaying/meditation that the poor farmers would never come into contact with the evil money. Well it looks like the only way to survive money is to become part of a lost indiginous tribe of indians in the amazonian jungle! Not really my cup of tea!

become part of a lost indiginous tribe of indians in the amazonian jungle

My luck, they most likely require a membership fee.

lost in the midwest

Originally posted by df1
You act as if this printing of money isnt already happening, the presses are running full tilt to fund the Iraq war as we speak. This war is certainly not being funded by the collection of taxes.

Again, I hope you're kidding about this. unfortunately, our tax dollars ARE being wasted on the iraq war, the president has already asked Congress for more than 120 billion to fund the continued occupation of the country. You think that money is just printed out of nothing? Get real. That's the money that comes out of our paychecks every 2 weeks.

You've always been a smart dude, df1, I'm having trouble understanding why you are being so ignorant about simple economics. These are researched, proven facts. Economists have won Nobel Prizes for creating the laws of economics, and here you are stating that it's all a lie.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by df1


You act as if this printing of money isnt already happening, the presses are running full tilt to fund the Iraq war as we speak. This war is certainly not being funded by the collection of taxes.
.

We're not printing money to fund the war, we're driving up the deficit. This means that Mr. Bush is able to temporarily "cut taxes", while in actuality he's just postponing payment. In a few years, the American public will be tired of a one party system, and the Reps will be voted out. The Dems will come in, and Bush's bill will be due. The only possible thing to do then will be to raise taxes, because somebody's got to pay for this war, and the "somebody" is of course us.

When that happens, the Reps'll say, "See, those tax-and-spend Dems are at it again" even though it was of course the Reps who blew the money to begin with, leaving the rest of us with the bill.

And that's pretty much the history of America.

Guess you missed my post in all the non topic conversation!

But any mason could answer them! ML? DF? AK? Senrak? anyone?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Guess you missed my post in all the non topic conversation!

But any mason could answer them! ML? DF? AK? Senrak? anyone?

which post?

posted on 22-8-2005 at 03:06 Post Number: 1629811 (post id: 1651704)

NeonHelmet

I read in your earlier posts that you think that masonry is descended from the mystery schools of ancient Egypt and beyond. Do you have any evidence of masonry going back past the 1700s. If so I would be very pleased to see it as I have never heard of such evidence apart from supposition and assumption. If we really want to get to the bottom of this do you not think that symbology links alone will not be able to prove any link between current masonry and the ancient mystery schools. Symbols are everywhere and there are only a limited pool of symbols that people can use. If there is hard factual/documentary evidence it will be a lot easier for people to see the links between the two, and your theory will be all the more credible for it.

Thanks

Well evidence is hard to come by that’s why it is a theory and not a fact!

I believe that if you follow written history and the architecture left behind by the old civilizations, you will see the connection.
We have so many parallels that it is unimaginable to me at least, that it is a coincidence. If you look at Sumer, Egypt, Is-Ra-El, Babylon, Greece and Rome you will in my opinion see a clear connection and that is the priest kings, oracles and wise men, who dictated the belief system and indoctrinated the “lesser man” it is the history of CONTROL & MANIPULATION
I think their own references to their own history is evidence enough, I think it is a public cover that all the sudden they claim; we only stole the symbols, we didn’t always have them.
I have many Masonic scriptures but they are copyrighted and I am not sure if I can post them in here!
But no symbology is not evidence enough, but I believe that history is!
But I am not in here to sound credible or be acceptet, I am an outcast of society, and only wish to share my wisdom and learn from others!
I have revised my opinion on masons many time, but the essence of my opinion remains! I believe masons are good men trying to evolve like the rest of us! But with many organizations they have been devoured and corrupted from the inside by mans lust for power!

Thank you for adding constructive criticism and your view to this thread

This is a little off-topic so I apologise in advance

It is funny that you mentioned architecture as it was one of the first things that brought the masons to my attention. There has been a lot of speculation that many of the churches built in London have masonic influence. One of my favourite architects was Nicholas Hawksmoor who was a pupil of Sir Christopher Wren. There is an excellent book on his work and it shows many links to both Roman architecture via Vitruvius, the ancient wonders of the world, and even Solomon's temple. It is called Hawksmoor's London Churches : Architecture and Theology by Pierre de la Ruffiniere du Prey and I would heartily recommend it.

The Great fire of London.

A perfect example of things needing to be destroyed, so they can be built anew.

London became the Phoenix, in 1666. Rising from the ashes, quite literally.

Although, hmmm, what was to occur 110 years later? How much is 5 x 333?

Someone had a great remark higher up the page, saying that just because we see the same symbolism does not mean their meaning is related, or that the cultures had anything to do with each other (not even an elite element), because "there are only so many symbols you can use".

I disagree! There are infinite combinations that can be used

Well I believe that the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitallers had a great influence in the building of the Cathedrals and Hospitals and Convents, and they placed them at strategic and astrological places all over Europe!

I disagree! There are infinite combinations that can be used

I concur! Well said

Though I don’t under stand what 1665 has to do with anything? Please explain though I probably know already!

Thank you for adding to this thread!

You are a Troll.

If anyone on the entire ATS disscusion boards is a troll, it is sebatwerk.

He's not here for disscussion, heres here to insult people with beleifs that do not directly coincide with his own. I dont know about you guys but his attitude and general disregard for every non " mason " on this forum makes me just wanna run out to the local lodge and join up, so i can have the right to get online and act condesending towards everyone else.

KITTENS CAUSE CANCER, love your name, love your wide eyes, love your free mind, love the way you make your point.

Hail to All!

"OFF TOPIC" -Money- whether a piece of paper or a figure on a computer screen - is intrinsically worthless, yet it fuels the modern world. The trappings of money and banking have been compared to those of a religion, yet only those who profit from it understand the inner workings of the money cult. And they work hard to keep it that way. In America the ultimate control of money rests with the bankers of the Federal Reserve System (the Fed), "the crucial anomaly at the very core of representative democracy, an uncomfortable contradiction with the civic mythology of self-government," as described by author William Greider, a former assistant managing editor of the Washington Post. His 1987 book 'Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country' disparages "nativist conspiracy theories" yet presents an eloquent argument demonstrating conspiratorial control by the Fed. Early Man had no need for money. He hunted when he was hungry and farmed to stockpile food for the winter. If he needed a commodity which belonged to his neighbor, bartering was the order of the day. But as work became more specialized, the limits to barter became apparent. The sheepherder could not always take his entire herd to market. So humans turned to coins as a measure of wealth. Precious metal, particularly gold, was limited in supply, always desirable, and easily transported as small coins imprinted with words or pictures to assure authenticity and purity, plus there was some ancient, almost holy, reverence attached to it. But heavy, bulging sacks of gold coins were burdensome, not to mention a tempting target for thieves and robbers.

Thus was born paper money. A paper bill was simply a promissory note. As such, paper was considered as valuable as real goods or services. This procedure worked well for a time, but them certain individuals realized that paper money, if loaned for a fee, could be used to generate more money. The early goldsmiths who warehoused gold coins used this stockpiled wealth as the basis for issuing paper money. Since it was hightly unlikely that everone would demand their gold back at the same time, the smiths became bankers. They would loan out a portion of their stockpile for interest or profit. This practice- loaning the greater portion of wealth while retaining only a small fraction for emergencies- became known as fractional-reserve, or fractional banking. Added to fractional banking was the concept of "fiat" money- intrinsically worthless paper money made acceptable by law or decree of government. An early example of this system was recorded by Marco Polo during his visit to China in 1275. Polo noted the emperor forced his people to accept black pieces of paper with an offical seal on them as legal money under pain of imprisonment or death. The emperor them used this fiat money to pay all his own debts.

"One is tempted to marvel at the [emperor's] audacious power and the subservience of his subjects who endured such an outrage," wrote author Griffin, "but our smugness rapidly vanishes when we consider the similarity of our own Federal Reserve Notes. They are adorned with signatures and seals; counterfeiters are severly punished; the goverment pays its expenses with them; the population is forced to accept them; they- and the 'invisible' checkbook money into which they can be converted- are made in such vast quantity that it must be equal in amount to all the treasures of the world. And yet they cost nothing to make. In truth, our present monetary system is an almost exact replica of that which supported warlords of the seven centuries ago."


Again I must reiterate on this thread that of course many aren't aware of superior activity.
On Masons or "the builders that rejected the cornerstone."

The ongoing connective tissue between the modern and ancient secret societies has been Freemasonry, which existed as a formidable force long before certain lodges became "Illuminized". During the late Middle Ages when any opposition to the Holy Roman Universal (Catholic) church was forced deep underground, among the only organized groups able to move freely throughout Europe were the guilds of stone masons, who maintained meeting halls or "lodges" in every major city. The masons, who traced their own secret knowledge of architecture and building back to Egypt and beyond, were essential in the construction of Europe's chruches and cathedrals. They were the direct descendants of early guilds of masons which existed both in Egypt and Greece and utilized esoteric construction techniques in their craft. These techniques had been passed down through the sects and mystery schools and some continue to confound modern builders. According to journalist George Johnson, "Early on, Masonry developed an aura of mystique. Its members possessed a power based not on royal or ecclesiastical authority but on knowledge, not only of cutting and mortaring but of the mysteries of ancient Greek geometers [experts in geometry]." Already possessing certain esoteric or secret knowledge, the Masons were and ideal vehicle for the covert distribution of anticlerical teachings. Authorities disagree as to the actual origin of Freemasonry but all acknowledge that it predates ancient Egypt. Masonic lore traces its origins back to the construction of the biblical Tower of Babel and King Solomon's Temple of Jerusalem.

The secrets of the origins of Freemasonry have been tightly held despite the publication of numerous books and literature on the subject. Walter Leslie Wilmshurst, a ranking Mason and author of 'The Meaning of Masonry', wrote, "The true, inner history of Masonry has never yet been given forth even to the Craft itself." "The overall picture is one of an organization that has forgotten its original meaning," wrote the authors of 'The Templar Revelation'. Sounds like humankind doesn't it?

To those interupting the flow of conversation being presented here. This intrusion is only a clarification who's side your on. (suppression vs. freedom) I would like to hear what might be said, I can tell the difference between guileful attacks and guilelessness .



[edit on 8-25-05 by pacman]

I will add to this, The Western World is not a democracy it is a plutocracy; in the early 1900, most nations went bankrupt, then the World Bank offered to help i.e. lending money to the nations, to this day they are still owned on paper by the World Bank!

It is the World Bank and the IMF that runs the world, if a nation choose not the loan more money they will demand payment; payment in LAND, ESTATE and NATIONAL TRESURES!

Look at the American deficit, look at Africa. The World Bank is the Corner Stone of MANIPULATION AND CONTROL!

The word democracy has been perverted by the capitalist, to insure a steady flow of un-needed commodities and consumers, we are not individuals, we are not free, and we are being used as a tool for CONTROL AND MANIPULATION!

You where not going of topic you brought a much needed and enlightened perspective to this thread for that I thank you!

If it is possible I would suggest a merger of this thread and my earlier thread: A LIE TOLD OFTEN ENOUGH BECOMES THE TRUTH!

As they cover much of the same information, and in the original thread masons an only a sub chapter! So we could cover the whole conspiracy more efficiently!


Thank you for adding to this thread!

ps: i could also make a new thread covering the subjects og these two threads!

[edit on 25-8-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by pacman
Authorities disagree as to the actual origin of Freemasonry but all acknowledge that it predates ancient Egypt. Masonic lore traces its origins back to the construction of the biblical Tower of Babel and King Solomon's Temple of Jerusalem.

While I believe that the origins of Freemasonry predate King Solomon's Temple, I do not think it is fair to say that all or even most scholars on the subject acknowledge this to be true. The evidence of such ancient orgins is fuzzy at best.

Wilmshurst, a ranking Mason and author of 'The Meaning of Masonry', wrote, "The true, inner history of Masonry has never yet been given forth even to the Craft itself."

You seem to use Wilmshurst's quote to imply that some body of Masons know this inner history and are not revealing it. I do not believe this to be the case. Albert Pike and and Manly P. Hall are well published on the subject and I believe that they have revealed much of what can be known about Masonry to the best of their abilities. My beliefs are based largely on the writings of Pike and Hall, but I am also aware that many Masonic scholars dismiss thier theories.

Originally posted by pacman
To those interupting the flow of conversation being presented here. This intrusion is only a clarification who's side your on.

Silly me, I didnt even know that we were choosing sides. This type of adversarial approach to the subject of Freemasonry and toward Masons in general is what derails most discussions. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not make that person an opponent. If you approach the subject without vilifying Masons or painting Masons as ignorant pawns of some cabal you will obtain better results.
.

Silly me, I didnt even know that we were choosing sides. This type of adversarial approach to the subject of Freemasonry and toward Masons in general is what derails most discussions. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not make that person an opponent. If you approach the subject without vilifying Masons or painting Masons as ignorant pawns of some cabal you will obtain better results

Well said DF!

What I put after that sentence was Suppression versus Freedom of information. Not I'm anti-mason and masons. This world exists currently in duality. I'm sorry if you mistaken me for choosing 'a bottom line side' which I haven't. I was reaffirming NeonHelmet's earlier post about noticing subtle attacks that some readers couldn't pick up. Such as the plaid cowboy. I very much like what you have done, NeonHelmet as to present a conversation on this thread, not a 'pin the tail on the donkey with a blindfold' approach. Keep pinning the tail on the donkey, but without the blindfold. I actually did vote for you. Peace.

P.S. this is OFF topic again, but it APPEARS the current infrastructure of American so-called officials are trying to pull off another subtle attack on the public. It's called "Public Extermination Project" interesting, by a former LA reporter Janet C. Phelan. Google it if you would like.



[edit on 8-31-05 by pacman]

Originally posted by Kittens Cause Cancer
If anyone on the entire ATS disscusion boards is a troll, it is sebatwerk.

He's not here for disscussion, heres here to insult people with beleifs that do not directly coincide with his own.

Actually, a troll is someone who purposely posts knowingly false information for the sake of argument and getting people riled up. I have never ONCE lied or posted false information on this forum, only factual information about Freemasonry. Conspiracy theorists like you don't like this simply because it doesn't coincide with your beliefs, well too bad. Fact is fact.

True, I have gotten upset many times and been very rude to many people, but I think YOU would do the same thing if someone were lying about your parents, or insulting your sister, would you not? My condescending attitude is not towards those who do not believe what I believe, it is to those who state opinions as fact and who make no effort to back up their claims with SOLID PROOF. Are you one of those?

So don't be so quick to open your beak and judge me, and you have no idea what my position is.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by sebatwerk]