Oh for a world without religion......

Nope, but I would concede that the "New World" was found because of the quest for gold or spices, actually, since he was looking for a better trade route to the Far East. ;-)

Originally posted by Marid Audran

The founding fathers were almost all very religious.

I'm sure they were. What does that prove? What conclusions are you drawing from that information?

It was a cornerstone on which they built the US from the declaration of independence to the writing of the constitution.

I disagree.
God is mentioned once in the Declaration. Religion is not mentioned.
God is not mentioned in the Constitution. Religion is mentioned once in the First Amendment, stating that:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

If it was the cornerstone, I would think there'd be a lot more mention of it in these documents. I'm afraid that's just your opinion. Although they were religious men, it was obviously important to them that religion wouldn't have bearing on the government.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Really? when was the last time a hindu set a bomb in the london subway?
When was the last time a christian flew an airplane loaded with passengers into occupied buildings? I think islam is the only religion that condones such behavoir, you can find it in the Koran, but you will not find it in any other religous texts.

Congrats, you have just been ignored. I rarely post here, mainly look for information. There are many people who's posts I dont agree with here but they provide at least an ounce of something worth reading. I am done reading your bigoted and racist ramblings. Dude, you seriously need help.

Woah, this is all got so out of hand it's untrue.

I said, what would it be like if?

This question should not incite any religious hatred, this should be a debate. Bigotry is for dickheads and loosers. As a race we must learn to understand fully our neighbours, wheather they are of one religion or one nationality.

These terrorist loons are just criminals. Al Zarqawi is a criminal in the same way Jeffery Dahmer is and in turn just the same as anyone who commits murder........This is NOT an indication that everyone who is muslim is a terrorist....just the same as not every man called Jeffery who has homosexual tendencies is a psychopath.

If some of you understood that the only way we can move forward as a species is to remove the barriers such as religion and misinformation.

The answer to nearly all of the worlds problem can be summed in one relatively small but ultimately effective word.

EDUCATION

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Monkfish]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm sure they were. What does that prove? What conclusions are you drawing from that information?

I am saying that they wrote it based on their conscience and their ideals which were firmly based in their ethos.

I am glad that they made no mention of it and it reflects on their characters but I still assert that their characters were solid because of their religious grounding.

Originally posted by Monkfish
Woah, this is all got so out of hand it's untrue.

I said, what would it be like if?

This question should not incite any religious hatred, this should be a debate. Bigotry is for dickheads and loosers. As a race we must learn to understand fully our neighbours, wheather they are of one religion or one nationality.

These terrorist loons are just criminals. Al Zarqawi is a criminal in the same way Jeffery Dahmer is and in turn just the same as anyone who commits murder........This is NOT an indication that everyone who is muslim is a terrorist....just the same as not every man called Jeffery who has homosexual tendencies is a psychopath.

If some of you understood that the only way we can move forward as a species is to remove the barriers such as religion and misinformation.

The answer to nearly all of the worlds problem can be summed in one relatively small but ultimately effective word.

EDUCATION

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Monkfish]

I fully agree with this statement, and to the overall purpose of this thread. Education IS key, and the removal of our 'barriers', organized religion being one of them. The belief in something greater than one's self is not the issue, in fact quite the opposite. However when we allow that belief to becomre blind ignorance based on the rules of that belief, then we have issues like the very ones we are dealing with today...

Religion is mans worst invention....and it is an invention.

You have suicide bombers, wars, pro lifers killing doctors?!?! (never understood that one!), a moron for president, not to mention all the atrocities commited in the past for religion.

Religion is just a way of controlling peoples thoughts through brainwashing, the intelligent are able to see through it.

Zappa's Prophecy

"Dumb all over", From the album "You are what you is", 1981

Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'Cause we behave the same...
*We are dumb all over*
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the Bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
'Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here

You can't run a race
Without no feet
'N pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
'N disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears *(Get Down!)*
Not his, not hers, *(but what the hey?)*
The Good Book says:
*("It gotta be that way!")*
But their book says:
*"REVENGE THE CRUSADES...
With whips 'n chains
'N hand grenades..."*
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
*"There ain't no other!"*
Our God says
*"It's all okay!"*
Our God says
*"This is the way!"*

It says in the book:
*"Burn 'n destroy...*
*'N repent, 'n redeem*
*'N revenge, 'n deploy*
*'N rumble thee forth*
*To the land of the unbelieving scum on
the other side*
*'Cause they don't go for what's in the
book*
*'N that makes 'em BAD*
*So verily we must choppeth them up*
*And stompeth them down*
*Or rent a nice French bomb*
*To poof them out of existance
*While leaving their real estate just where
we need it*
*To use again*
*For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD*
*("Cause he can really take care of
business!")*

And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes
phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'Cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to *hebbin!*
(Depending on which book you're using
at the time...Can't use theirs... it don't work
...it's all lies...Gotta use mine...)
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following *God's Orders*
Hey, let's get serious...
God knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here
An' the book says:
*He made us all to be just like Him,"
so...
If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
*(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)*

Originally posted by Flyer
Religion is mans worst invention....and it is an invention.

You have suicide bombers, wars, pro lifers killing doctors?!?! (never understood that one!), a moron for president, not to mention all the atrocities commited in the past for religion.

Religion is just a way of controlling peoples thoughts through brainwashing, the intelligent are able to see through it.

Again, I would have to say that religion itself is not the worst invention but rather the application of and enfocement of some extreem views are the issue at hand.

Many people take a statement like this and instantly assume it is an attack on their beliefs, spouting off that without religion there would be anarchy, the country is founded on god. bla bla bla bla bla bla..

So sorry but I am begining to think that it is not even religion or the application there of that is the issue.. but rather people's inability for critical thinking.

How many times have you seen someone instantly go on the defensive or offensive for that matter because of a percieved comment that threatens to undermine someone's rock firm belief (in anything) and make them re-evaluate it?

People are afraid to accept that they may be wrong and their first kneejerk reaction is to grab a stick and beat somone to death for it. Even on these boards, there are people who become volitile if you suggest that they could be wrong about something.

Thoughts?


MrBunny
Cynic

Ohh, and yes, Colombus was financed by Issabella (Spanish Queen) to find a trade route to South Asia that did not force them to sail arround the Cape of Good Hope known for really nasty storms. It then became a major boon to the spanish for gold, silver, spices, furs, and timber resulting in the Spanish becomming one of the richest and most powerfull nations in the world untill Elezabeth I.

The Pilgrims came over because of the split between Prodistant and Catholic warring in England started by Henry VIII and the infighting went on through Mary, Elezabeth, and James who considered himself an avent of god and becomming the creator of the King James version of the bible (mid 1600's) as well as the image for the classic painting of Jesus found in most Catholic homes.

The USA became an independant nation because of the extreem taxation from George III (I think it was George III). Not because of religious persicution.

(this is all skipping over the political turmoil of the early 1700's Ann's rule of only a prodistant monarch and the end of the Stewart line, the fall of Olliver Cromwell, etc etc... )

Thus endith the lesson.

MrBunny

My view goes along the lines of - imagine a world where EVERYONE lived by the 10 Commandments (or the other faiths versions of this)

No one would steal, no one would kill, so on and so forth.

Those where given to man for his own good - its MEN not religion that chooses to kill and commit evil - and thats with or without religion.

Blamming religion for the worlds woes is being naive.

Yes ALOT of terrible things where done by men in power using religion and faith.
Just as today we have Islamic extremists blowing themselves up as martyers for their faith and beliefs.

But thats not to say every Muslim is a terrorist and not all christians are evil.

I would say that the true numbers of GOOD muslims and christians outweigh the bad 10000/1

But as always those who lives their lives practising good never make headlines.
They are the forgotten Hero's of this world.
Those who provide shelter for the homeless, food for the hungery, offer hope to those in need.

Pointing the finger at religion is too easy.
Thats like saying all russians are communists and all germans where nazi's - when its common knowledge when both empires fell, MANY MANY germans and russians HATED their leaders, belief systems and way of life.

Just as MANY christians look at what has been done falsey in the name of God.
Just as MANT muslims look at what has been done falsey in the name of God.

If you want to blame anyone - blame evil and corrupt MEN, who use religion as a weapon.

Originally posted by Monkfish
We are destroying ourselves....and for what purpose?

God?

If so.......why?

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Monkfish]

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Monkfish]

This is the very serious question of the Peace of the World.

Each civilization has one or several religions.

Actually, in my opinion, US and Iran have no difference in this question.

Both have national religion, US - Christian, Iran - Islamics.

Both are fight for their God, although US says he fight for democracy, freedom, ... such #.

The most dangerous question is a government believes his people should fight for the God of his religion, Can we think this country is the extremist of this religion?

There is a sentence in US national song: "God bless America."

Can anybody answer my question?

There is a list on how many population killed in the Name of different God:
www.landoverbaptist.net...

Taiping Rebellion (1851- 1864) Jesus-Jesus
20,000,000 - 40,000,000
American Indians killed, Christian-Native religion
20,000,000
The Thirty Years War (1618-48) Christian-Catholic
8,000,000
Saracen slaughters in Spain Christian/Catholic - Islamic
7,000,000
Jews killed in Holocaust, Christian-Jewish
6,000,000
France: Catholic vs. Huguenot (1562-1598)
2,000,000 - 4,000,000
Bush's Crusade in Iraq
100,000 (See my signature, God told him to do it!)

..........

You will see the countries or people who believe in Jesus killed much more people than the countries who believe other religions. Maybe more than 1 billion totally.

Does that means the God of Christian or Jesus want the people to kill the people who do not believe in the God of Christian or Jesus?

Need answer.

Originally posted by BlindedByTheLight

If you want to blame anyone - blame evil and corrupt MEN, who use religion as a weapon.

And so, BlindedByTheLight, you have once again hit the monster spike with your little tack hammer. I wish you had used a maul or sledge, because that bloody spike is just never going to get driven home.

But, I suppose it's just going to take a kazillion taps with those wee hammers before the majority comes to the same realization you and I have both come to ages ago.

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by BlindedByTheLight

If you want to blame anyone - blame evil and corrupt MEN, who use religion as a weapon.

And so, BlindedByTheLight, you have once again hit the monster spike with your little tack hammer. I wish you had used a maul or sledge, because that bloody spike is just never going to get driven home.

But, I suppose it's just going to take a kazillion taps with those wee hammers before the majority comes to the same realization you and I have both come to ages ago.

Becasue we all know that there are no such thing as evil or corrupt women.

Lol, sorry couldent resist, I know.. or at least hope that by "Men" you ment mankind.

However simply stating "blame evil and corrupt MEN, who use religion as a weapon." you offer no solution.

Sadly I believe that humans use their religion and beliefs to hide behind becasue they would rather lash out in defense of their beliefes rather than take the effort to consider the fact that there is possible an alternative to their way of life.

This will never change and everyone will suffer.

MrBunny
Cynic

Why is this post still here? There is a whole forum made for posts like this. Actually, this post has been done before in the Religion forum a half dozen times.


Anyways, Ill respond to this one I have to the rest:


Someday the world will grow up and rid ourselves of the mental crutch that is religion. Only then will the world know what peace and happiness really is, there can never be peace while religions rule the land. Religion is responsible for more death and suffering than any other cause in the history of mankind.

By definition, religion is evil:

evil

adj 1: morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds" [syn: wicked] [ant: good] 2: having the nature of vice [syn: depraved, vicious] 3: tending to cause great harm [syn: harmful, injurious] 4: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force" [syn: malefic, malevolent, malign] n 1: morally objectionable behavior [syn: immorality, wickedness, iniquity] 2: that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare 3: the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world" [syn: evilness] [ant: good]

See? Religion is evil by definition, lets get rid of it so we can all finally get along and enjoy a peacefull planet.


[edit on 27-7-2005 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by skippytjc
Why is this post still here? There is a whole forum made for posts like this. Actually, this post has been done before in the Religion forum a half dozen times.


Anyways, Ill respond to this one I have to the rest:


Someday the world will grow up and rid ourselves of the mental crutch that is religion. Only then will the world know what peace and happiness really is, there can never be peace while religions rule the land. Religion is responsible for more death and suffering than any other cause in the history of mankind.

By definition, religion is evil:

evil

adj 1: morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds" [syn: wicked] [ant: good] 2: having the nature of vice [syn: depraved, vicious] 3: tending to cause great harm [syn: harmful, injurious] 4: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force" [syn: malefic, malevolent, malign] n 1: morally objectionable behavior [syn: immorality, wickedness, iniquity] 2: that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare 3: the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world" [syn: evilness] [ant: good]

See? Religion is evil by definition, lets get rid of it so we can all finally get along and enjoy a peacefull planet.


[edit on 27-7-2005 by skippytjc]

First... your quote of the definition of evil does not prove that religion is evil.

second, humans will never give up religion, sorry ain't gonna happen. Mankind will never know peace untill we are all gone.

MrBunny
Cynic

I am not a man of religion, but I don't think it's a bad thing. Some people need it to keep themselves cool, calm, and collected - and that's fine by me. Religion doesn't hurt anyone, it's the people who use religion as a tool of manipulation that are dangerous. No war is really about religion, it's comes down to politics and greed.

Amen to that!

I'll include your heart-felt wish in my nightly prayers!!

Having a belief is not a bad thing at all. ORGANIZED beliefs are a terrible thing and must be stopped.

How can something as "wonderful" and "enlightening" as religion cause so much hate, murder and destruction? Its when people of religion start to feel that OTHERS need to feel the same way they do, and what causes that? Organized beliefs.

Belief can be a wonderful thing....Until you want me to believe the same...

Why does their need to be an afterlife to make you a good person and have hope?
I have hope for the human Kind and the planet But I don’t believe in a great creator ‘ because if this great creator does exist and is looking down on this planet and seeing how wicked some human beings are it should do something about it. ‘Pronto.

I don’t think I wish to enter into the heavens above to meet this great creator because its not doing it’s job right ‘ ‘ ‘ And That’s A Sack able Offence in Slough’’’ Not carrying out your job and work to the standard humans require.

What with all this democracy sweeping the planet at the moment can we see in the near future electing a new creator due to old age?