Oh for a world without religion......

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Why would you not do whatever you wanted?

Thou shalt not kill. Religious origins
Thou shalt not steal. Religion origins
Give to the poor. Religious origins.

Quite a boatload of assumptions going on there. I'm not in any way religious and I don't have a religion, but I believe in an afterlife, I have great hope, I don't steal, I never lie and I give to the poor and charities all the time and I've never killed anyone.

These morals come from my personal set of values. Religion has nothing to do with it. Without religion, I'm not going around killing people. People knew it was wrong to kill and steal before religion even came into the picture! Religion doesn't own and did not create these morals and values.

But why do you "know" those are right? Let me guess you were probably taught that. By people whose laws were founded by those with Judeo Christian morals.

I am not saying that you are religious, just saying that your entire society and culture and what you have learned have been a result of that religion.

Originally posted by Marid Audran


But why do you "know" those are right? Let me guess you were probably taught that. By people whose laws were founded by those with Judeo Christian morals.

I am not saying that you are religious, just saying that your entire society and culture and what you have learned have been a result of that religion.

Last time I checked Buddhism was not founded on Judeo Christianity. Sorry, no monopoly for you.

why are trey right? perhapsa because in smaller orriginating hunter gatherer groups this type of activity was detrimental to the tribe as a whole.... not because god said so.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan


Really? when was the last time a hindu set a bomb in the london subway?
When was the last time a christian flew an airplane loaded with passengers into occupied buildings? I think islam is the only religion that condones such behavoir, you can find it in the Koran, but you will not find it in any other religous texts.

Thats true, Hindus are pretty cool.

However... should I bring up christians who in the name of their god have destroyed entire civilizations? Or shot doctors in clinics? Do I even need to bring up the Inquisition? How bout Isrial and Palistine? I'm sorry, but both are equally at fault for all the trouble there.

So sorry, but none of the Judeo Christian religious fanatics can claim innocents from history.

I was assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Benevolent Heretic was from a Western nation, probably US or Britain. As such, the law of the land where he was raised is indeed based on Judeo Christian beliefs.

Also, last time I checked, Buddhism is a religion. Or is in somehow exempted from the title of the thread "Oh for a world without religion"?

In which case perhaps a moderator should change the title to "Oh for a world without Judeo Christian religions..."

Originally posted by Marid Audran
But why do you "know" those are right?

The same way I know that black people are equal to white people and that gay people are as deserving and wonderful as anyone else. They feel right to me.

I am not saying that you are religious, just saying that your entire society and culture and what you have learned have been a result of that religion.

I was raised in a Christian home. It was also a prejudice environment. I learned that 'colored people' were less intelligent, less deserving and dirty. I also learned that beating a child was a proper interpretation of the biblical saying 'spare the rod, spoil the child'. I also learned that Jesus died for our sins and would one day return. I also learned the books of the bible, which I can recite to this day. I was baptized and went to church 3 times a week minimum throughout my youth.

If I gave up on these beliefs; why didn't I give up on the killing and stealing thing? Because they feel right to me. It has nothing to do with religion. I could have easily cast them off, too. But I choose them for me in addition to the morals and values I have adopted on my own. And if I hadn't learned them in religion, I would still hold them as values because that's the kind of person I am. And you'll just have to take my word for that.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Marid Audran
But why do you "know" those are right?

The same way I know that black people are equal to white people and that gay people are as deserving and wonderful as anyone else. They feel right to me.

I am not saying that you are religious, just saying that your entire society and culture and what you have learned have been a result of that religion.

I was raised in a Christian home. It was also a prejudice environment. I learned that 'colored people' were less intelligent, less deserving and dirty. I also learned that beating a child was a proper interpretation of the biblical saying 'spare the rod, spoil the child'. I also learned that Jesus died for our sins and would one day return. I also learned the books of the bible, which I can recite to this day. I was baptized and went to church 3 times a week minimum throughout my youth.

If I gave up on these beliefs; why didn't I give up on the killing and stealing thing? Because they feel right to me. It has nothing to do with religion. I could have easily cast them off, too. But I choose them for me in addition to the morals and values I have adopted on my own. And if I hadn't learned them in religion, I would still hold them as values because that's the kind of person I am. And you'll just have to take my word for that.

I am just saying that a large part of the reason that you (and I, for that matter) feel that black people, gay people, etc. are equal is because of the world you grew up in. We have been taught, sadly often through the suffering of others, that people are people regardless of the adjective you put in front of it. We are damn fortunate in that regard. In the macroenvironment, even if your own house wasn't perfect, you were exposed to a wide range of beliefs.

If you grew up in feudal Japan your opinion of what "felt" right would likely be very different than what it is now. Please understand, I am not meaning to imply that your feelings are any less valid. I am just saying that it is impossible to not be affected by the world around you.

We would all like to say that our moral compass would always point due north (and who knows, maybe it would), but it is likely that due north would be a bit different.

Thanks for keeping this civil, BH - you are a truly a stand up kinda person and one of the people that makes this such a great community!

My two cents on the subject.........

Faith based systems all are rooted in man's inablity to comprehend and come to an understanding of his environment. Enlightenment is a subjective experience that we must trust without questioning within this system of belief.

Over time with the implementation of the scientific method man has learned to understand and comprehend increasing amounts of his environment. As a result, faith based systems have taken a back seat each time their truth has been replaced by objective realities that can be replicated through experimentation.

From flat earth to sphere...........from center of the universe to 3 planet from the solar system at the edge of a galaxy's spiral arm...........etc.

It is fine to profess a faith based system as long as...........you do not offend or condemn another person's truth barometer...........but that is where the fault lies in many of the World's religions today.......

They argue over the rights to land, peoples and enternal fates based on their scriptures being in most cases the exclusive truth to the exclusion of all others.........

and that's a problem in a World today that is filled with the level of technological developments and responsibities we must excercise moderation and wise implementations thereof...........

Fact is that if there was ever a creator...........and truth in knowning the creator was a reality.........then we wouldn't have so many intrepretations and disagreements even within denominations of the same religion........

Where the real trouble comes in with most faith based systems is that they usually stand on a group of ancient sacrite scriptures that are either divinely inspirated or the actual word of God. Therfore they are not acceptable for questioning or revisions..............but yet we have many different religions based on this uncompromisable structure.........

A person must be able to search for objective truth through evidence that can be demonstrated no matter what consequences it brings......

....even if it means a total revision of their initial but unsubstanciated belief system.

now in regards to moral constructs of society..........

...........many faith based point of views state that if you take God out of the equation of society then you have a receipe for social disobendiance and lawlessness.........

.....This is an incorrect view...............

Yes faith based morals can act as the fabric of society.............but some can also tear at that same fabric..........but just because a person holds an agnostic or antheistic conclusion to reality based truths does not mean that they will desire to live an amoral lifestyle...........

Humans have survived over time learning that cooperation among the species is better than isolated selfish behavior..........the divison of labor and team work has allowed man to survive competition in the wild and over nature's disasters............Those that have possessed these traits in the past were survivors and passed them on to us...........while those that became isolated often died out in the wild.............

That long term natural selection has resulted in much of the cooperative traits from which a society can exist...........so by applying a moral code through our coperative nature results in a more prosperous and enjoyable experience in society. A moral code of law and behavior is desirable regardless of your spiritual positioning on life.

It has been hardwired into our gene structure as a result of our survival as a species..........some of us implement this inherited able better than others but nevertheless it is there even without a spiritual moral code as well.

"Question Authority" - Albert Einstein

The same religion that created the Sistine Chapel incited the horrors of the Inquisition. Religion itself is not the problem: the real problem is that human beings don't understand themselves, and don't question their own actions or motivations. Religion is just an excuse (one of many) not to do so.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I was assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Benevolent Heretic was from a Western nation, probably US or Britain. As such, the law of the land where he was raised is indeed based on Judeo Christian beliefs.

Also, last time I checked, Buddhism is a religion. Or is in somehow exempted from the title of the thread "Oh for a world without religion"?

In which case perhaps a moderator should change the title to "Oh for a world without Judeo Christian religions..."

I think that if you read the thread from beging you will see that the subject, as it is apt to do, has mutated from a world without religion, to a discusion of religion vs the organization behind religion, which then of coulse leads to the influence of law by religion as well as which relicions have been at the core of several historical boo-boos.

Buddhism is a religion though I would argue that is is more of system of practices for self awairness where as a religion is a belief system based on diety.. this however has a number of holes in it in theory and since I sliced open my thumb it is hard to type and dont feel like getting into that.

I would also argue that the basis of the judeo christian religions are anchored in the ideals of certain rights and wrongs.. likely to find a foundation for a civilization to prosper.. so I would say that religion is a reflection of intended law and not laws that were steeped in belief.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Religion has killed more people and caused more suffering than any other cause in the history of mankind.

I can only dream of a world without religion, finally we could have peace and happiness and not all the violence that is part of religion.
[edit on 26-7-2005 by skippytjc]

skippy, I have to disagree. Religion has killed no one. People kill people. It is because people are basically selfish and greedy. There have been wars, battles and skirmishes from the dawn of mankind. Killing in the name of religion is no differnt than killing in the name of democracy, manifest destiny, or any other reason.

Until mankind can start to embrace the understanding of "love one another," there will continue to be conflicts throughout the world. To blame religion for this is rediculous.

People will use any excuse to condone killing. There will always be someone who thinks that their group is better than the other group. This is nothing more than the propagation of hate. Hate breeds hate. Blame is on the individuals, not the ideal.

Originally posted by darkelf

People will use any excuse to condone killing. There will always be someone who thinks that their group is better than the other group. This is nothing more than the propagation of hate. Hate breeds hate. Blame is on the individuals, not the ideal.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the majority of pains, wars, hatreds, and atrocities through history have been in the name of god.

Originally posted by MrBunny
I think it would be more accurate to say that the majority of pains, wars, hatreds, and atrocities through history have been in the name of god.

Which god did Alexander, Atilla, Napoleon, Hitler or any other ruler use as an excuse to take over the world? I think that god's real name might be "Power."

Originally posted by Marid Audran

I am just saying that a large part of the reason that you (and I, for that matter) feel that black people, gay people, etc. are equal is because of the world you grew up in.

I agree. That's why I think killing and stealing is wrong, too. Because of the world I grew up in. NOT because of religion. But many people who grew up in the same environment as me are still prejudiced. What makes the difference? Individuality.

In the macroenvironment, even if your own house wasn't perfect, you were exposed to a wide range of beliefs.

Yes. And I kept some and I cast aside some and I found some new ones along the way.

I am just saying that it is impossible to not be affected by the world around you.

Again, agreed. It's the idea that 'religion is where morals come from' that I was arguing with. that's all. People get their morals from all over PLUS from who they are as an individual.

Thanks for keeping this civil, BH - you are a truly a stand up kinda person and one of the people that makes this such a great community!

Right back at ya!

I think that the main point that I am getting at is that there are a number of things in the world that were indirectly a result of religion.

The United States of America, being one ;-)

It's like oil, people get so caught up in thinking about its use as fuel that they forget all of the other amazing things it is responsible for. That is the topic for another discussion (which has been brought up in Peak Oil more than once).

One can't just look at part of the equation, one has to look at the whole.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I think that the main point that I am getting at is that there are a number of things in the world that were indirectly a result of religion.

The United States of America, being one ;-)

You lost me, man. The USA is a result of religion? That's going to take some explaining...

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I think that the main point that I am getting at is that there are a number of things in the world that were indirectly a result of religion.

The United States of America, being one ;-)

Wrong! Many of the original settlers came to the 13 colonies to escape from having religion imposed upon them. Their decendents are now rising up to prevent islamofascists from trying to impose their religion (of peace ) on the whole world.

Religion is only the basis of everything if you're religious. The rest of us have our own ideas about things. This country was not founded on religion. It was founded on freedom. Freedom from the political bands of England.

The Declaration of Independence:

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
...

That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.

I thought this might be appropriate here. It's a very good article.
The Anointed of America

It has been my observation that the sincerity of a person’s religious devotion can best be gauged by how vocal that person is about it: the greater the volume, the less genuine the spirituality is likely to be.
...
The bile would not rise so sharply in my craw if such comfort-loving, Bible-spewing cultists did not intend to impose their beliefs on me, but that is the plan. Christians across the country plot their places in the political hierarchy, from which they can inflict their hidebound superstitions on society at large.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I think that the main point that I am getting at is that there are a number of things in the world that were indirectly a result of religion.

The United States of America, being one ;-)

You lost me, man. The USA is a result of religion? That's going to take some explaining...

They pilgrims originally left in order to have freedom to practice religion as they saw fit. At those times, everyone was religious and the idea of God was a matter of fact, not conjecture. They just didn't like being told how to worship.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Religion is only the basis of everything if you're religious. The rest of us have our own ideas about things. This country was not founded on religion. It was founded on freedom. Freedom from the political bands of England.

The founding fathers were almost all very religious. It was a cornerstone on which they built the US from the declaration of independence to the writing of the constitution. Some quotes for you to enjoy ;-)

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. (emphasis mine) It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798


"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

Lest you think John Adams was the only one ;-)

Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Thomas Jefferson
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
and
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

etc. etc. etc.

I am sure that I am now marked as one of "those" kinds of religious guys but I am merely proving my point ;-)

Originally posted by Marid Audran
They pilgrims originally left in order to have freedom to practice religion as they saw fit.

Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Fleeing religious persecution is why the pilgrims left England, but the USA was formed to make a political break from England.

By your logic, we could say that gold was indirectly responsible for the formation of the USA. Because Columbus was looking for gold.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]