This is some goooood stuff!!!

Sorry, looks like my time away from the keyboard has put me behind in responding.

The masons I have known spoke of following their natural instincts, and forwarding blame to the creator. If you believe in a higher power, and you believe that you were created by that power, then the responsibility for your tendencies lies solely in the hands of your creator.

This has NOT been my experience nor do I believe this to be the experience
of anyone else of conscience. God does not control every action of every person on earth, therefore each has free will to act. If the actions are incorrect, improper, illegal or immoral; then the guilt lays squarely upon the individual, not God.

If you follow your true nature, you have no reason to be ashamed or feel guilty. You believe you will be judged fairly in the end, and so do not waste time judging yourself, no? Certainly brothers are admonished not judge one another.

That's my understanding. I subscribe to many of the same beliefs, so I can at least speak for myself in these matters. As I said, judgement is hardwired, there is no need for human morality. Tawdry trappings that detract from the majesty of life.

This goes to the nurture vs. nature argument of human behavior.
One can only act purely of nature if they can set aside the environmental influences in their life.
No easy task. Therefore "human morality" becomes
exceedingly important as a control.

Do you condemn an owl for eating a mouse? No. The owl is simply doing what comes naturally. So are we. If this isn't absolution, I don't know the meaning of the word.

No I don't condemn the owl for eating the mouse, unless the mouse was first drugged, beaten and abused; which as we know is completely against the nature of an owl.

But nobody will believe you, because you have a vested interest in hiding the truth, if the truth is indeed as horrible as some say.

Achems Razor then, the simplest answer is that none of those absurd and disturbing conspiracy theories have merit without proof.

Semantics. See my response to Sebatwerk.

Not so. Doing those things may bring me pleasure and help others, but pleasure is not power. Since I seek no recognition for the things I do and in most cases give anonymously, no one owes me anything. So I guess I don't see your point.

Originally posted by umwolves123
how can you say this stuff is great...never mind what he says about masonry, but think about what this man says about OUR country. we can all have our different oppinions about masonry, illuminati, or anything else but each person should be thankfull for all our country has givin us.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by umwolves123]

Your Country is pretty much a joke... Established on esetoric doctrine and already evolving into an olgarchy ... Which was probably the plan from the get go. If it has made you rich and placed you in the den of the ruling class, then you should by all means salute it. If it hasn't then you should be ashamed of yourself for defending it,,,, After all, it has not provided for you , its promised fruit ....

I don't have time to surf that silly site but if the guy says anything remotely close to what I just said, well, bravo to him!

~peace

Sebatwerk and other masons; you take food for thought and call it bait while you spit your poisonous insults at those who have suffered at the hands of your brothers/sisters. Troll? This is how you answer those who ask for answers? You must be up for a bollocking from your "superiors" for even suggesting that you could be drawn into an argument with people who know so little. These threads stay alive because people have suffered, first hand, from 'crossing' brothers/sisters and care to warn others not to fall for your tactic of throwing insult at inquirery.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Sebatwerk and other masons; you take food for thought and call it bait while you spit your poisonous insults at those who have suffered at the hands of your brothers/sisters.

Nobody has suffered at the hands of Freemasonry. Any mason who has caused anyone to suffer is no brother of mine, and would not be part of the fraternity if it became known.

Troll? This is how you answer those who ask for answers? You must be up for a bollocking from your "superiors" for even suggesting that you could be drawn into an argument with people who know so little.

No, that is how I answer those who say things just for the sake of making me angry. And also those who post other people's opinions and claims without having done the slightest bit of research on their own.

Also, NO mason has any "superiors". That contradicts the whole point of a fraternity, and demonstrates how little you actually know about Freemasonry.

Suboordination only exists in organizations that have an outward function, such as the military or a business. Freemasonry is like a school, and all masons are students. Some mightget voted into the student council, but they are still all students.


[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

God does not control every action of every person on earth, therefore each has free will to act. If the actions are incorrect, improper, illegal or immoral; then the guilt lays squarely upon the individual, not God.

It's not that God controls our actions (why would God care enough to do so?), I'm sorry I wasn't clear. It's that we were made imperfect, and for good reason. If we were made perfect, life would be a mural, instead of a journey.

It's impossible to appreciate perfection without knowledge of sin, and for that reason it's impossible to BE perfect, without having sinned. It's an endless paradox, round and round. Not for nothing either...

It's not that God is to blame for our decisions, it's that God is to blame for our ability to make decisions. The craftsman is responsible for the dimensions of his creations. Blame isn't even really the right word, since it has such negative conotations.

We make our decisions, and live with the consequences, and nothing you say or do will alleviate said consequences. It's a permanent stain. That being understood, what benefit does lamenting the blemish bring, when lamentations are not soap?

Judgement of a fellow man is hollow, just as judgement of oneself is hollow, it's useless and presumptious. We simply can't presume to judge each other or ourselves without concrete knowledge of God's designs, and God's designs are God's alone.

We were designed broken, that we might attempt to fix ourselves, and be better for the experience, more appreciative of the grand design. Of course, perfection is ever-elusive, and the cycle is perpetual, but I, for one, wouldn't have it any other way.

The tendencies of some of the self-proclaimed masons on this thread are patently offensive to the ideals of masonry. I just have to get that off my chest. Being sick of the slander is fine and well, but don't forget your own place, and don't make the mistake of placing yourself in a position above another. We're all #, floating together in the same sewer.

This goes to the nurture vs. nature argument of human behavior.
One can only act purely of nature if they can set aside the environmental influences in their life.
No easy task. Therefore "human morality" becomes
exceedingly important as a control.

I disagree, because I see the intrinsic value of sin. Without it, there could be no salvation. Now consider the fact that every man, woman, and child, goes directly to bliss at the moment of death, due to a surge of brain chemicals. Doesn't that put things in perspective a little? The religions of the world have been getting rich off the fear of their disciples, for millenia! They're selling something that will be given freely regardless!

What use is there in a life spent second-guessing our own actions, when all our paths lead unerringly to the same destination? Life is a journey, and a journey without burdens is more enjoyable by far.

I am content to walk my path, want for nothing, and die without regret. Would this be possible if I flaggelated myself over every mistake, every misdeed? How can I forgive myself for telling that girl I loved her? How can I forgive myself for stealing that twenty dollars? I'll tell you how, because I too have been lied to, I too have been robbed. Goes around, comes around, it's the mechanism that drives our existence.

I understand my stance is unpopular, because it's so aloof, but the fact remains, we all go to Heaven, and we all live in Hell, so ascribing varying levels of guilt, shame, and blame to various actions is totally unnecessary in the light of the final reckoning.

A lifetime of suffering pales in comparison to our one moment of unimaginable bliss at the end of it all, everything is washed away in that final burst of light. We pay for our sins with the lives we lead (as Baldwin so eloquently states), and we all reap the same reward at the end.

Achems Razor then, the simplest answer is that none of those absurd and disturbing conspiracy theories have merit without proof.

You're absolutely right, they have no merit without proof. However, while the theories themselves have no merit, the quest for knowledge, truth, and understanding has merit above all else.

Not so. Doing those things may bring me pleasure and help others, but pleasure is not power. Since I seek no recognition for the things I do and in most cases give anonymously, no one owes me anything. So I guess I don't see your point.

"The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively."
www.thefreedictionary.com...

Power isn't derived from recognition in the eyes of others, rather, power is gained through a greater understanding. You know the old phrase knowledge is power? Well, it's freakin' true.

I hope you and the other masons on this board don't see me as antagonistic. I have no interest in drawing you away from the path you walk. I only want to share my understanding and that of others, in the hopes of increasing our mutual understanding through dialogue.

Unlike some, I admit freely to being power hungry. (insofar as it relates to understanding )

Sebat, you might not have seen such things happen, but I assure you, it has, and they do. Personally, I chalk it up to human nature, and nothing else. But, mind you, I feel that I'm a little saner than most. That could be taken as the first signs of neurosis bording on psychosis, but I do.

That's the secret that you'll impart to me? A couple handshakes and a hug? That does me no good as it isn't a "secret", but a secret manner of recognizing one another. It'll do me no good because I'd never use it in a false manner. That is to say, Trickery is wrong in my frame, myopic point of view.
But, if that is all you'll give me, thanks. That is more than anyone else has given me!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sebat, you might not have seen such things happen, but I assure you, it has, and they do. Personally, I chalk it up to human nature, and nothing else. But, mind you, I feel that I'm a little saner than most. That could be taken as the first signs of neurosis bording on psychosis, but I do.

Well... if such things HAVE indeed happened as you claim, then I assure you that the proper action to take would be to notify an impartial mason of the fact so that he may bring masonic charges against those masons for acting against and abusing the priviledges of Freemasonry. This is a very common occurrence and is what I, as a mason who cares about the reputation of my fraternity, would like to see happen.

That's the secret that you'll impart to me? A couple handshakes and a hug? That does me no good as it isn't a "secret", but a secret manner of recognizing one another. It'll do me no good because I'd never use it in a false manner. That is to say, Trickery is wrong in my frame, myopic point of view.
But, if that is all you'll give me, thanks. That is more than anyone else has given me!

I hate to break it to you, but there ARE NO OTHER masonic secrets! This is what I've been trying to tell you all along! The only other secrets are who individual members of the fraternity are, a brother's personal secrets and individual lodge business (such as paying of bills, charities, etc.). Since all of those things are specific to my lodge only, I can honestly tell you that there are no other masonic secrets in general. I am NOT lying, and I am NOT too far "down the ladder" to know better. This is it. This is as far as masonic secrets go nowadays. You have seen our rituals, you have seen our modes of recognition, and now there are no more actual masonic secrets for you to see.

Also, you need to understand that masons KNOW that these "secrets" are available for anyone to see. But we are still obligated not to discuss them. This means that they are not truly secrets, they're just things that masons promise to discuss only with each other.

Believe me or not, I don't care. I have already gone further than most masons would to make this point to you, and I have done this only in hopes that maybe YOU can grasp this simple concept. It would be nice if you would at least research this and try to see for yourself that there is nothing else that is kept secret in the fraternity.


[edit on 27-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

So, what you're saying is, there are no secrets?

Lookit, you stay away from the rest of the forums, elsewise you might be tempted to screw them up, too. What's the use of a conspiracy board if some jerk takes away all the conspiracy topics!!

Originally posted by df1
The point I most wanted to make in my previous post is that I think my brother Masons should resist the Mason baiting and that each Mason should be his own moderator. Each response made by a Mason should be intended to provide accurate information about Masonry and in a manner that would result in the reader having a favorable opinion of Masonry. Without singling out any particular post, I believe that often the opposite occurs to the detriment of Masonry.

As you can see I take my responsibillities seriously, over reacted, possibly. This post however, I couldn't agree more with, well said.

Excuse the spelling, damn cold medication.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
So, what you're saying is, there are no secrets?

Lookit, you stay away from the rest of the forums, elsewise you might be tempted to screw them up, too. What's the use of a conspiracy board if some jerk takes away all the conspiracy topics!!

I've stated MANY times that all of this conspiracy nonsense with masons, Illuminati, skull and bones, etc. distracts people from the REAL conspiracies which exist in our society. There are more than enough of these real conspiracies and atrocities going on, which we should be discussing and fighting against, that CAN be proven and demonstrated. I'd like for conspiracy theorists to stop wasting their time with what is obviously not true, and focus their energy somewhere where it can and WILL make a difference.