This is some goooood stuff!!!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I'm sure if you have the right connections and bloodline, you'll not remain in the local level where the unsuspecting good ol' boys who think they're just part of a boy's club are, but will be drinking the blood of virgin blondes from the skulls of goats in no time!

Excellent Crowne....if one of US had posted something like that to another poster WE'D be warned or get a U2U....but a "Super??? Moderator" who's supposed to keep order on this list posts PURE B*S* and it's fine, huh?

(And you're little doesn't change the intent of that pathetic post one bit!)

THAT sure benefits the forum, now doesn't it...

[edit on 26-7-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrakExcellent Crowne....if one of US had posted something like that to another poster WE'D be warned or get a U2U....but a "Super??? Moderator" who's supposed to keep order on this list posts PURE B*S* and it's fine, huh?

(And you're little

doesn't change the intent of that pathetic post one bit!)

THAT sure benefits the forum, now doesn't it...

[edit on 26-7-2005 by senrak]

OMFG, since when is joking prohibited at ATS? If you are serious with this post then you really need to get out in the daylight a little more.

And I mistrust any organisation that consists exclusively of men. I love women, for their wisdom and empaty, and I hope they will rule the world one day




[edit on 2005-7-26 by EyesOfTheFuture]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Crow, your password is for your protection, as is your other every day passwords.

I do believe "protection" is the reason for the secret handshakes and modes of recognition, as historically it has been very necessary. Access and association granted only to those who are authorized. Passwords, handshakes, Tylers, secure servers... I see no difference.

As I stated before, this country was not created by Masons, but by Divine direction. Whatever or whoever tools He used is irrelevant. A Pharoh in Egypt was used to prove His powers to the world and His Chosen, but that didn't mean the Pharoh was pure, does it?

Ah yes, "Manifest Destiny" granted by the Christian God for political purposes. I wonder if the Native Americans feel that white settlers (and their oh-so-willing black SLAVES?) were blessed by God to "inherit" this land or if they simply view them as thieves who robbed them of their lands and culture, paying them back with substandard reservation parcels where alcoholism, broken families, suicide, and poverty are so rampant that the average life expectancy of their males is less than 45 years old? "Do Unto Others", eh? Is this the Divine Direction from God of which you speak? I do not think He would have wanted us to treat them this way, but hey what do I know? All in God's plan, according to you.

Oh wait, I guess I should be blaming that on the Freemasons, since they were among the first settlers. Oh but I can't because you said they didn't build this country, it was God. That's right. I guess they are off the hook for all that silly Native nonsense then. We can lay it squarely at God's feet since He was directing it all. I wonder if He appreciates that.

That which only thrives in the dark should be dragged into the light. If it dies, it is not honorable. This little light of mine; I'm gonna let it shine!

I love it when people say this. Everyone has secrets, every single person on the planet. Dirty ones. Skeletons in the closet. Deny it all you want but we all know it's true. I think when everyone stops screaming about mind control and freely invites me (or the Freemasons) into the most secretive parts of their psyches to wander around digging up all their dirty laundry, then we can demand that the Freemasons give up their secrets. But until everyone is willing to sign a full confession of everything they've ever done in their little lives, and take a polygraph while doing it, and post the results on an international forum for everyone to see, then I think the naysayers should just be happy that they have any privacy left, because they sure as heck aren't affording it to anyone else.

"Divulge, expose, reveal!" they yell. How about practicing what you preach?

Also, the only people I have ever seen post personally identifying information about themselves on this site, such as real name and address, etc., are Freemasons. Oh but you don't care about WHO they are, only about all the information that you want from them.

We should ban the sale of information on the Web now. You know, "How to Sell a House in 30 Days or Less" or "Secrets to a Lasting Marriage"... since they are not giving me the info free of charge with no obligation, they simply MUST be affiliated with Satan! They have SECRETS and I want them!

No, they just want to make a buck at the expense of those who "aren't in the know".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Freemasons aren't selling anything. So maybe, considering this (purposely ridiculous) reasoning we should be persecuting the internet salespeople instead.

It makes so much sense to me now.




P.S. Isn't there a "secret forum" on ATS that you have to spend an obscene amount of points to get into and then pay a monthly fee to remain a member of? Just exactly WHAT is going ON in there? Worshipping goat gods and eating babies out of virgin skulls??? By definition, if it is secret it must be nefarious! I demand to know what goes on behind those closed doors without going through all that "hassle" of getting "initiated" into the group! I will not stand for elitism and secrecy at ATS!

(Get the point? I figured you would.)

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Stegosaur]

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture
OMFG, since when is joking prohibited at ATS? If you are serious with this post then you really need to get out in the daylight a little more.

No, the "joke" part was the blood..virgins..etc. Yes, eyes, I GOT that. But thank you for pointing it out for others like yourself who can't read entire posts in their context.

And I mistrust any organisation that consists exclusively of men.

Blatant ignorance about Masonry if you think it "consists exclusively of men"

It's been discussed here before (over and over) but for your edification, I offer you Co-Masonry...some of which is mixed gender (that means men AND women together) and some of which is EXCLUSIVELY Women. Do you mistrust groups that are exclusively WOMEN? (Somehow I doubt it)

www.co-masonry.org...

www.luckymojo.com...

www.comasonic.org...

I love women, for their wisdom and empaty, and I hope they will rule the world one day

You should move to the U.S.A. Your wish will come true.




[edit on 2005-7-26 by EyesOfTheFuture]

Originally posted by sebatwerk


Can you explain to us why you believe masonry is wrong? I mean, didn't Freemasonry give you the freedoms you enjoy? Isn't the freedom in the country in which you live based upon masonic ideals? So why is masonry so wrong?

Not freemasonry, but christians. I don't attribute our freedoms to freemasonry, but to our christian forfathers. Sorry to be a troll here, but I had to say something.
I was actually on the freemasons side here about this guy. He seems like a nutcase, but when you said that our freedom is based on masonic ideals, it kind of got to me.

Wow, Senrack, you probably think you are original; getting mad with me, playing as if you're offended by my words and saying that I am unworthy of being a Mod. Trust me, that little trick is used quite often. You are well aware of the conspiracy tales, and you know what I'm talking about. Thank you; your post brought nothing toward the discussion directly, but it did illustrate once again how the flock of Masons here in this forum will muddy the waters any way possible to prevent the discussion of Masonry at this conspiracy board.

Stegosaur, you are right, all the secrets of the Masons is just as benign as the password that protects your bank account! Wait a minute, there I go knee-jerkingly accepting shallow words again...they must be different as I have never read one conspiratorial thing about the bank account password mystery! Yeah, I hear you talking, but all I see is someone else desparately working to cease all discussion of the Masons at this Conspiracy web site.

The creation of America did not force the Indian to drink booze, but it did allow them to hear the Gospel. The creation of this nation wasn't for "political" purposes, but for Christians to have their own nation. While we had and have problems, we were instrumental in combating the forces of evil in several occasions during the last century, which might have been a very big factor in a creation beforehand. If you recall, a time after man was created, he sinned. That was not the purpose God created man, now was it? So, again, your analogy is easily brushed aside.

Gee, there sure seems to be a LOT of troops waiting in the aisles, prepared to attack any Mason-suspecter!

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Wow, Senrack, you probably think you are original; getting mad with me, playing as if you're offended by my words and saying that I am unworthy of being a Mod. Trust me, that little trick is used quite often.

I don't consider it "throwing a brick" but if you do, that's fine. I wasn't trying to offend you either...although I DO think you're a poor moderator. I'm sure you think you're a SUPER Moderator, so it's not worthy of further discussion.

You are well aware of the conspiracy tales, and you know what I'm talking about. Thank you; your post brought nothing toward the discussion directly, but it did illustrate once again how the flock of Masons here in this forum will muddy the waters any way possible to prevent the discussion of Masonry at this conspiracy board.

No Crowne, that's NOT what it illustrates. What has been illustrated here is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a "discussion of Masonry" as you put it, because because of all the blatant, ignorant LIES said about Masonry.

Can it be discussed as conspiracy? Certainly....if the originators of these idiotic threads won't continue to post nonsense and false accusation as FACT. There must be a REAL researcher amongst those who dislike Masonry. They can't ALL be ignorant cattle, but that's what's been demonstrated.

I don't mind at ALL if someone asks or even SUGGESTS there's a secret conspiracy going on within Masonry, but to tell me and other Masons like me that they KNOW FOR A FACT that there's a secret group that controls Masonry and the media and the U.S. Government and Russia and the Illuminati and local Burger King...while we (the Masons who are ACTIVE and PARTICIPATE) are ignorantly led....well quite frankly that's BULL! And as a SUPER Moderator you should by-God know that!

It's truly pathetic that these "individuals" , again, armed with their Google Search Engines are considered legitimate researchers and the overload of ridiculous puke they post is accepted as FACT, while information from long-term active members of the organization is OBVIOUSLY a cover-up of some nefarious activity. Give me a break. That's paranoia at it's worse.

Yeah, I hear you talking, but all I see is someone else desparately working to cease all discussion of the Masons at this Conspiracy web site.

YAWN

The creation of America did not force the Indian to drink booze, but it did allow them to hear the Gospel. The creation of this nation wasn't for "political" purposes, but for Christians to have their own nation.

Crowne, you truly need to read more about the TRUE founders (and I don't mean Washington and those clowns...) Look back at the earliest settlers. Accept OUR ways or you're out (and in some cases DEAD). The Puritans were anything but pure... Look at the Salem witch trials. If THAT was Christians having their own nation, I pity them.

If you recall, a time after man was created, he sinned. That was not the purpose God created man, now was it? So, again, your analogy is easily brushed aside.
Gee, there sure seems to be a LOT of troops waiting in the aisles, prepared to attack any Mason-suspecter!

No, just prepared to defend ourselves when lied about.

We're really not bad guys...but some of us are sick of liars.

By the way, I'm duly impressed by you. I never ONCE imagined a fundamentalist would be interested in becoming a SUPER Moderator.

Congratulations.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by Stegosaur

I do believe "protection" is the reason for the secret handshakes and modes of recognition, as historically it has been very necessary. Access and association granted only to those who are authorized. Passwords, handshakes, Tylers, secure servers... I see no difference.

(....)

P.S. Isn't there a "secret forum" on ATS that you have to spend an obscene amount of points to get into and then pay a monthly fee to remain a member of? Just exactly WHAT is going ON in there? Worshipping goat gods and eating babies out of virgin skulls??? By definition, if it is secret it must be nefarious! I demand to know what goes on behind those closed doors without going through all that "hassle" of getting "initiated" into the group! I will not stand for elitism and secrecy at ATS!

Wow- It's not every day that you see a forum mod get totally owned by a member. Really, shouldn't mods be impartial in these discussions, particularly a "Super Moderator" ? Anyway:

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The creation of America did not force the Indian to drink booze, but it did allow them to hear the Gospel. The creation of this nation wasn't for "political" purposes, but for Christians to have their own nation. While we had and have problems, we were instrumental in combating the forces of evil in several occasions during the last century, which might have been a very big factor in a creation beforehand. If you recall, a time after man was created, he sinned. That was not the purpose God created man, now was it? So, again, your analogy is easily brushed aside.

This nation was created for "Christians to have their own nation"? That's ridiculous. This nation was created so people living here would not have to pay taxes to a foreign, oppressive king. Some Christian sects did come to North America originally to escape religious persecution (from other Christians), but still, most people that came here were looking for economic opportunities that did not exist at home - and that is true from the earliest major migrations onward.

p.s. Most serious historians abandoned the Manifest Destiny stuff over 50 years ago.

Stegosaur, you are right, all the secrets of the Masons is just as benign as the password that protects your bank account! Wait a minute, there I go knee-jerkingly accepting shallow words again...they must be different as I have never read one conspiratorial thing about the bank account password mystery! Yeah, I hear you talking, but all I see is someone else desparately working to cease all discussion of the Masons at this Conspiracy web site.

LOL The last time I checked, website hackers and password theives were STILL the badguys. Why shouldn't the Masons be allowed to keep secrets?

If secrets are such a bad thing, why doesn't everyone just post their SSNs here, along with their Visa Card numbers? Hey, guess what...THEY'RE SECRET!!

(Speaking of which, one is issued by the government and the other by a bank. You think THEY don't keep secrets?)

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
I was actually on the freemasons side here about this guy. He seems like a nutcase, but when you said that our freedom is based on masonic ideals, it kind of got to me.

It is a very possible fact that the framers of the constitution based the system of democracy in this country upon the principles of Freemasonry. If you look at how the organization of Freemasonry is run, and how the US was intended to be run, there are some pretty amazing parallels.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Yeah, I hear you talking, but all I see is someone else desparately working to cease all discussion of the Masons at this Conspiracy web site.

If was so interested in ceasing discussion on the subject, I wouldn't come here at all, nor would I contribute to the discussion, therefore enabling its progress. Considering that you refused to address most of my post, I would say that your act of "brushing aside" my rebuttal can perhaps be interpreted as attempting to quell the discussion much more so than what I said.

Ah, finger pointing, gotta love it.

The creation of America did not force the Indian to drink booze, but it did allow them to hear the Gospel.

Oh you mean it gave the Christians who were fleeing religious oppression themselves the opportunity to unleash the same treatment upon the "savage pagans" already residing here. Yeah, sounds loving and tolerant to me. I guess the "Trail of Tears" and using smallpox as biological warfare is a figment of my imagination.

The creation of this nation wasn't for "political" purposes, but for Christians to have their own nation.

Make sure you let the rest of the religious minorities already living here know this obscure little fact, as apparently they have been misinformed about America's true raison d'etre. I'm sure that the Jews, the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Wiccans, the will feel very enlightened to know that Christians have simply been allowing said minorities to hang out here while they are systematically exploited for everything they're worth. Hey, it's not like we have to give them credit or anything. After all, what did the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Vietnamese ever do for this country?

(If they are not being exploited, then by default, give credit where credit is due. Can't have the cake and eat it, too.)

I hope everyone understands that I am being absolutely sarcastic here. This entire country is made up of groups that were once considered minorities, religious outcasts, whatever. Even the "Native Americans" originally came across the Bering Strait from Asia so literally everyone here, no matter what your faith, color, race, creed, etc. is NOT native to this soil. Therefore, NO ONE, not even Christians have the right to supremacy here, nor can it be legitimately called a nation created for Christians. Give me a break. Shall we exile everyone that doesn't fit your definition then?

So, again, your analogy is easily brushed aside.

I suppose it was the easiest thing for you to do, however, I don't believe anyone here would say you adequately made your case or were even able to address most of what I said. Not surprising though.

Gee, there sure seems to be a LOT of troops waiting in the aisles, prepared to attack any Mason-suspecter!

Can you imagine what I'd be like if I was actually a Freemason myself? Wow. Then I might be a bit biased, with good reason, of course.

It's amazing what thinking for yourself can do. You should try it sometime. You might look to your own shortcomings first rather than trying to find them in everyone else.



[edit on 26-7-2005 by Stegosaur]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
but it did illustrate once again how the flock of Masons here in this forum will muddy the waters any way possible to prevent the discussion of Masonry at this conspiracy board.

What are you talking about?!? ALL WE DO IS TALK ABOUT FREEMASONRY!!! People scream at us for always changing the subject of posts to Freemasonry! We always have been, and always will be, here to set the record straight about Freemasonry. You do nothing to deny ignorance regarding Freemasonry.

but all I see is someone else desparately working to cease all discussion of the Masons at this Conspiracy web site.

Why must you LIE?!? All we do is try to tell people the truth about Freemasonry. Have you ever ONCE seen me try to change the subject or avoid a thread regarding Freemasonry? If not, then don't LIE about this again.

We are here to show people that all the silly things they (and YOU) believe about Freemasonry have no factual basis and are nothing more than heresay and conspiracy FANTASY. I'd expect YOU to be supportive of that, but instead all YOU do is fabricate, spew and spread the same nonsense as any other conspiracy theorist on this forum who so desperately wants to believe what he reads in conspiracy books and websites.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

JustMe

Wow- It's not every day that you see a forum mod get totally owned by a member. Really, shouldn't mods be impartial in these discussions, particularly a "Super Moderator" ?

Mods are members too, and as such they're entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Impartiality only enters into it regarding enforcement of the T&C. Thomas Crowne has disagreed vehemently with me on several occasions, but he's never punished me for it. That means he's doing his job.

Thomas Crowne

Gee, there sure seems to be a LOT of troops waiting in the aisles, prepared to attack any Mason-suspecter

Yes, that certainly does seem to be the case. Then again, the same can be said for Christians on this site, as well as Republicans. People just stick together, for survival and mutual benefit. Oldest rule of the book, if you're small and susceptible to predation, travel in packs.

Stegosaur

Oh wait, I guess I should be blaming that on the Freemasons, since they were among the first settlers. Oh but I can't because you said they didn't build this country, it was God. That's right. I guess they are off the hook for all that silly Native nonsense then. We can lay it squarely at God's feet since He was directing it all. I wonder if He appreciates that.

I'm pretty sure God doesn't give a damn one way or another. We're responsible for our own actions, thanks to this free will business. All the people claiming the support of the creator of the universe in their petty dealings and schemes, well, it's only offensive to other meat-creatures such as ourselves. The almighty, assuredly, can't be bothered.

I love it when people say this. Everyone has secrets, every single person on the planet. Dirty ones. Skeletons in the closet. Deny it all you want but we all know it's true. I think when everyone stops screaming about mind control and freely invites me (or the Freemasons) into the most secretive parts of their psyches to wander around digging up all their dirty laundry, then we can demand that the Freemasons give up their secrets. But until everyone is willing to sign a full confession of everything they've ever done in their little lives, and take a polygraph while doing it, and post the results on an international forum for everyone to see, then I think the naysayers should just be happy that they have any privacy left, because they sure as heck aren't affording it to anyone else.

This here is what Freemasonry offers. Relief from one's own personal burdens of sin. It's a fraud however, because guilt is absolute, and judgement is hardwired.

Besides, people think something nefarious and criminal is going on. In society, the rights of the body entire outweigh the personal needs of the individual organs. If y'all are indeed molesting children and buggering each other, society has a right to know, because we don't condone that behavior.

Privacy is not absolute.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Freemasons aren't selling anything.

Nonsense, they're selling influence and dreams of power.

Senrak

Excellent Crowne....if one of US had posted something like that to another poster WE'D be warned or get a U2U....but a "Super??? Moderator" who's supposed to keep order on this list posts PURE B*S* and it's fine, huh?

That's a load of crap. Nothing TC said was worthy of a warn, were he a member. If you're so pissed, file a complaint. He made a joke, not a personal attack, not an erroneous statement of fact. Better check yo'self befo' you wreck yo'self.

What has been illustrated here is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a "discussion of Masonry" as you put it, because because of all the blatant, ignorant LIES said about Masonry.

Nonsense. Freemasons have been fielding these questions for CENTURIES! One would think y'all would be used to it by now. The greater degree of control you have over your own responses, the more believable your argument becomes.

If nothing else, I will say it adds some credibility to your argument. Baby eaters and blood drinkers would likely have thicker skin.

I don't mind at ALL if someone asks or even SUGGESTS there's a secret conspiracy going on within Masonry, but to tell me and other Masons like me that they KNOW FOR A FACT that there's a secret group that controls Masonry and the media and the U.S. Government and Russia and the Illuminati and local Burger King...while we (the Masons who are ACTIVE and PARTICIPATE) are ignorantly led....well quite frankly that's BULL! And as a SUPER Moderator you should by-God know that!

Nobody stated anything as fact. Questions were raised, answers have been somewhat forthcoming. I think you should post the comments from this thread where TC stated for a FACT that y'all drink blood and such, and prove me wrong. I've got limitless patience, so I'll be right here waiting for your response.

We're really not bad guys...but some of us are sick of liars.

Guess what? We're not bad guys either. People think something nefarious is going on, they are trying to do the right thing by uncovering it. Try to understand where your opponents are coming from. If nothing else, it will help you combat their arguments.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by WyrdeOne]

This here is what Freemasonry offers. Relief from one's own personal burdens of sin. It's a fraud however, because guilt is absolute, and judgement is hardwired.

Masonry offers nothing of the sort. It offers no relief from sin nor guilt.

Besides, people think something nefarious and criminal is going on. In society, the rights of the body entire outweigh the personal needs of the individual organs. If y'all are indeed molesting children and buggering each other, society has a right to know, because we don't condone that behavior.

You're right. IF we were doing those things then society would have every right to
know and be outraged, but we aren't so we have a right to keep our secrets and our privacy.

Nonsense, they're selling influence and dreams of power.

Wrong. I have neither influence nor power and didn't join to gain either.
Anyone who joins for those reasons will be sorely disappointed.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Thomas Crowne

Gee, there sure seems to be a LOT of troops waiting in the aisles, prepared to attack any Mason-suspecter

Yes, that certainly does seem to be the case.

That is NOT the case. BUT, as Freemasons, we all know what is really going on, and we all want to make sure people know the truth. We do not all meet together to agree on what our answers will be and what our plan of attack is, but when we all answer the questions provided and correct the mistakes that are posted, it seems as if we are all attacking at once. What you really have is several masons correctingt the same mistakes posted.

This here is what Freemasonry offers. Relief from one's own personal burdens of sin. It's a fraud however, because guilt is absolute, and judgement is hardwired.

You see, there's the problem. You take something you THINK, and state is as TRUTH. This is what infuriates us masons, because what you just stated couldn't be more false.

One of the PRIMARY lessons of Freemasonry is that that God is ever-present (hence the symbol of the all-seeing eye) and that judgement is inevitable!! You can look that up for yourself!

Besides, people think something nefarious and criminal is going on. In society, the rights of the body entire outweigh the personal needs of the individual organs. If y'all are indeed molesting children and buggering each other, society has a right to know, because we don't condone that behavior.

Right, but nothing nefarious and evil is going on, so why shouldn't we have a right to privacy. NOBODY has ever been able to prove that masons are up to evil things behind closed doors. So should we lose our privacy simply because of some people's ASSUMPTIONS?

Nonsense, they're selling influence and dreams of power.

THAT IS A BUNCH OF BULL!!! Why do you keep stating these things as FACT?!? QUIT IT!!! Freemasons "sell" no such thing. Freemasonry offers a man the ability to better himself through charity, faith and honor. NOTHING MORE! Again, look it up for yourself.

Nonsense. Freemasons have been fielding these questions for CENTURIES! One would think y'all would be used to it by now. The greater degree of control you have over your own responses, the more believable your argument becomes.

The only reason our responses coincide is because WE ARE TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

That is NOT the case. BUT, as Freemasons, we all know what is really going on, and we all want to make sure people know the truth. We do not all meet together to agree on what our answers will be and what our plan of attack is, but when we all answer the questions provided and correct the mistakes that are posted, it seems as if we are all attacking at once. What you really have is several masons correctingt the same mistakes posted.

No, of course you don't coordinate your offensives, I understand that. It's just a shared interest, just as when someone posts bad-mouthing Christianity, the Christians respond in droves.

Nothing sinister about it, as I said earlier, just natural behavior.

What's interesting to note however, is that masons see themselves as separate from society to the extent that they must defend themselves from it. I don't know if this is a failing of society, or a failing of the masons, or simply a natural progression into cliques.

The Jews shared this experience for thousands of years, constantly under the shadow of distrust and accusation because they kept their own ways.

You see, there's the problem. You take something you THINK, and state is as TRUTH. This is what infuriates us masons, because what you just stated couldn't be more false.

One of the PRIMARY lessons of Freemasonry is that that God is ever-present (hence the symbol of the all-seeing eye) and that judgement is inevitable!! You can look that up for yourself!

What you're saying in no way contradicts what I have said. Masons pass the role of judge up the heavenly ladder, and free themselves from their PERSONAL BURDEN of guilt. Re-read what I said, and if you still object, I'd like to know why.

Right, but nothing nefarious and evil is going on, so why shouldn't we have a right to privacy. NOBODY has ever been able to prove that masons are up to evil things behind closed doors. So should we lose our privacy simply because of some people's ASSUMPTIONS?

No, I would never condone a law that subjected masons to irregular scrutiny or burden of law. However, you saying that nothing is going on does not suffice as proof, for obvious reasons.

Everybody in prison declares their innocence. This is no different.

It's the responsibility of your detractors to keep at their work, and it's your responsibility to keep at yours. I don't see anything wrong with the system, since it generally rewards dilligence. If there is something going on, and y'all are clever enough to hide it, it should be hidden. If, on the other hand, your detractors are right, and through persistence prove that fact to the world, their victory will be hard fought for and well earned.

THAT IS A BUNCH OF BULL!!! Why do you keep stating these things as FACT?!? QUIT IT!!! Freemasons "sell" no such thing. Freemasonry offers a man the ability to better himself through charity, faith and honor. NOTHING MORE! Again, look it up for yourself.

Semantics. Are you telling me there is no power in charity, faith, and honor? Because that would make you a liar.

You're so used to be attacked, you have lost the ability to see merit in the arguments of neutral parties.

Finally, I said:

Nonsense. Freemasons have been fielding these questions for CENTURIES! One would think y'all would be used to it by now. The greater degree of control you have over your own responses, the more believable your argument becomes.

To which you replied:

The only reason our responses coincide is because WE ARE TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

Again, you totally misunderstood my statement and thought I was saying something other than what I actually was.

My point was that flying off the handle does nothing to aid your case.

My point had nothing to do with coordinated responses.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

I'm pretty sure God doesn't give a damn one way or another. We're responsible for our own actions, thanks to this free will business. All the people claiming the support of the creator of the universe in their petty dealings and schemes, well, it's only offensive to other meat-creatures such as ourselves. The almighty, assuredly, can't be bothered.

And I agree with you. Hence "Manifest Destiny" was certainly a political aspiration and not a Divine inspiration, as it was claimed by TC. Exactly... and thank you.

This here is what Freemasonry offers. Relief from one's own personal burdens of sin. It's a fraud however, because guilt is absolute, and judgement is hardwired.

Really? Where is this stated? in Morals & Dogma? I've never heard a Freemason say this so I'm interested as to how you came to this conclusion. No BS, no sarcasm, I'm legitimately wondering where you found this.

Can anyone else support this statement? I'd like to hear more about it.

Besides, people think something nefarious and criminal is going on. In society, the rights of the body entire outweigh the personal needs of the individual organs. If y'all are indeed molesting children and buggering each other, society has a right to know, because we don't condone that behavior. Privacy is not absolute.

So "innocent until proven guilty" does not really matter anymore. As long as someone somewhere for some reason simply suspects you are doing something naughty (real or imagined), privacy is irrelevant and should be compromised for the sake of the greater good. Lord, that sounds awfully Orwellian to me.

(...must... steer... clear... of .... politics!...)

*sigh*

Nonsense, they're selling influence and dreams of power.

I wonder how it is that I get nothing from them personally, that I have no real affiliation with them whatsoever, and yet I still manage to treat them as I would wish to be treated... namely without judgment in the very obvious absence of facts that would condemn them. I think anyone here would be seriously outraged if they were the defendant in a trial that was handled so ridiculously as this issue is handled here. Would you want your "Judges" (*ahem*) passing sentence on you based on rumours, conjecture, and speculation? Is this acceptable in our current judicial system? Would any of you stand for it if you were slandered without cause, without an advocate to represent you, with only your "fellow accused" to defend you from the sidelines? Or would you scream from the rooftops that this was a lie, that there was no evidence to condemn you, that you are being unjustly persecuted?

Especially if it were the truth?

How would it make you feel?

Hmmm. I bet I'd be pretty irritated myself.

People think something nefarious is going on, they are trying to do the right thing by uncovering it. Try to understand where your opponents are coming from. If nothing else, it will help you combat their arguments.

What will you say if your house is searched without a warrant, without legal recourse and you are forbidden to even speak of it? It is allowable now, all in the name of safety, you know. Civil rights are disposable these days, but perhaps the Freemasons are used to that sort of thing by now. But hey, you're right, when you've had to defend yourselves for CENTURIES, perhaps you get really good at debate. Bonus!

Masonry offers nothing of the sort. It offers no relief from sin nor guilt.

The masons I have known spoke of following their natural instincts, and forwarding blame to the creator. If you believe in a higher power, and you believe that you were created by that power, then the responsibility for your tendencies lies solely in the hands of your creator.

If you follow your true nature, you have no reason to be ashamed or feel guilty. You believe you will be judged fairly in the end, and so do not waste time judging yourself, no? Certainly brothers are admonished not judge one another.

That's my understanding. I subscribe to many of the same beliefs, so I can at least speak for myself in these matters. As I said, judgement is hardwired, there is no need for human morality. Tawdry trappings that detract from the majesty of life.

Do you condemn an owl for eating a mouse? No. The owl is simply doing what comes naturally. So are we. If this isn't absolution, I don't know the meaning of the word.

You're right. IF we were doing those things then society would have every right to
know and be outraged, but we aren't so we have a right to keep our secrets and our privacy.

But nobody will believe you, because you have a vested interest in hiding the truth, if the truth is indeed as horrible as some say.

I think you misunderstand my thrust. I have no loathing for the masons. I only seek to explain the workings of things, and understand to the best of my ability.

You wonder why society won't stop hounding you for your secrets, I think it's pretty clear.

Wrong. I have neither influence nor power and didn't join to gain either.
Anyone who joins for those reasons will be sorely disappointed.

Semantics. See my response to Sebatwerk.

Excuse my asking, but is the purpose of this thread to convice us that our founding fathers were pagans, or Satanists? (There IS a difference ya know.)

Now, concerning the flag, this guy might be at least half right. When I was stationed at Ft. Dix, back in the Seventies, I was taught that the flag is, in fact, a Living Entity which is why every flag is given a funeral when it's retired.

However, the argument of George Washington's religion is irrelevent. I've posted at least once, proof positive that George Washington was a devout Episcopalian...and yes, one can be a good Christian AND a Mason.



[edit on 26-7-2005 by Toelint]

I think everyone should relax a little.

Who cares what people think about Masonry?
If someone walks along, reads some silly story or hears some guy on the internet talking about Masonry in a negative light and they automatically believe it, then they aren't someone who would do well in Masonry anyway. Kind of had to seek the light when your surrounded by the darkness of your own lack of ambition for truth anyway.

So some people talk trash about Masonry. BIG DEAL. Your moms fat and your girlfriend just left my apartment!

I think someo f the stuff I find online about Masonry is hilarious and entertaining. I'll link people to it and let them enjoy it. Why get defensive about it if you know it's nonsense, fake, made up, whatever? You give such things credibility by trying so hard to deny it and it's exactly what these anti-masonics want.

If you find something online about Masons, post it. Share it. Laugh at it.

Understand what I am saying?