This is some goooood stuff!!!

And I agree with you. Hence "Manifest Destiny" was certainly a political aspiration and not a Divine inspiration, as it was claimed by TC. Exactly... and thank you.

No thanks necessary. I just call 'em as I see 'em. Despite my decidely neutral stance, people insist on believing I'm out to get them. Manifest destiny was most assuredly a justification for violence, part and parcel of this us and them mentality.

A mentality, I might add, that some ATS masons slip easly in to.

Really? Where is this stated? in Morals & Dogma? I've never heard a Freemason say this so I'm interested as to how you came to this conclusion. No BS, no sarcasm, I'm legitimately wondering where you found this.

A question fairly asked that I'm happy to answer. I assume you've read Pike's book, have you read Russo's?

The individual who may appear upright before his neighbors may indeed be guiltier in his private sins when presented before an equal throne of judgment. Although we may identify whose guilt is more evident before the law of man by presentation of public facts, we cannot make the determination when considering whose soul is cleanest before the judgment of God who sees the sins committed in the light as in the dark.

(Above quote from Jason Russo's Summary of M&D by Pike. Chapter 7)

How about this?

To this end it teaches that great and momentous truth: that wrong and injustice once done cannot be undone, but are eternal in their consequences; once committed, are numbered with the irrevocable Past; that the wrong that is done contains its own retributive penalty as surely and as naturally as the acorn contains the oak. Its consequences are its punishment; it needs no other, and can have no heavier; they are involved in its commission and cannot be separated from it. A wrong done to another is an injury done to our own Nature, an offence against our own souls, a disfiguring of the image of the Beautiful and Good. Punishment is not the execution of a sentence but the occurrence of an effect. It is ordained to follow guilt, not by the decree of God as judge, but by a law enacted by Him as the Creator and Legislator of the Universe. It is not an arbitrary and artificial annexation, but an ordinary and logical consequence; and therefore must be borne by the wrong-doer alone.

(Above from Provost and Judge, Injustice and its Consequences, revised by Albert Pike)
www.ardue.org.uk...

Or this? (From the same, except Justice and Judgement)

We can every one of us look back and, shuddering, see the time when our feet stood upon the slippery crags that overhung the abyss of guilt and when, if temptation had been a little more urgent, or a little longer continued, or if want and penury had pressed us a little harder, or a little more wine had further disturbed our intellect, dethroned our judgment, and aroused our passions, our feet would have slipped and we should have fallen, never to rise again.

Or this? (From the same, except Sympathy)

It does not become the frail and sinful to be vindictive towards even the worst criminals. We owe much to the good Providence of God, ordaining for us a lot more favourable to virtue. We all had that within us that might have been pushed to the same excess. Perhaps we should have fallen as he did, with less temptation. Perhaps we have done acts that, in proportion to the temptation or provocation, were less excusable than his great crime. Silent pity and sorrow for the victim should mingle with our detestation of the guilt. Even the pirate who murders in cold blood on the high seas is such a man as you or I might have been.

I think that's enough for now.

So "innocent until proven guilty" does not really matter anymore. As long as someone somewhere for some reason simply suspects you are doing something naughty (real or imagined), privacy is irrelevant and should be compromised for the sake of the greater good. Lord, that sounds awfully Orwellian to me.

No, I said no such thing. I only sought to explain the phenomenon, not to justify it. See my other responses.

I wonder how it is that I get nothing from them personally, that I have no real affiliation with them whatsoever, and yet I still manage to treat them as I would wish to be treated... namely without judgment in the very obvious absence of facts that would condemn them.

Have I judged? Or have I simply observered the tendencies of others?

As to my comments of selling power and influence, I think I covered that in an earlier reply to the same question.

I think anyone here would be seriously outraged if they were the defendant in a trial that was handled so ridiculously as this issue is handled here. Would you want your "Judges" (*ahem*) passing sentence on you based on rumours, conjecture, and speculation? Is this acceptable in our current judicial system?

Of course they would be, except there is no trial here, only an investigation. As I said earlier, perhaps in another recent thread, it's entirely understandable why the masons get so uptight when accused of everything from molestation to sodomy. They have experience with being on the receiving end of murderous lies.

However, have you ever heard the phrase "methinks the lady doth protest too much", and if you have, can you see where I'm going with this?

That's why the masons made a point, for a long time, or not answering the perennial slander. They found over time that it actually hurt their case. Now, apparently, that prohibition had lifted, and masons are free to defend their order against accusations. I'm not sure if that will be for the better, or not. Only time will tell.

Would any of you stand for it if you were slandered without cause, without an advocate to represent you, with only your "fellow accused" to defend you from the sidelines? Or would you scream from the rooftops that this was a lie, that there was no evidence to condemn you, that you are being unjustly persecuted?

Their behavior is understandable, I've said as much. I don't begrudge them their defense.

Edit: I think this quote is most illuminating. I toss it around ATS quite a lot, because I think people could stand to learn a lot from it.

"In the private chambers of the soul, the guilty party is identified, and the accusing finger there is not legend, but consequence, not fantasy, but the truth. People pay for what they do, and still more, for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it simply: by the lives they lead."
- James Baldwin

Sums the issue up nicely, doesn't it?

But I suppose now we'll have to debate the nature of absolution. As I said before, it's semantics. I don't see my position as diametrically opposed to Sebatwerk's or Stegosaur's, but they persist in maintaining it's the case.

I'm not sure what accounts for the failure to communicate, whether it's my own inability, or theirs, or a factual separation of the ideals. Interesting discussion, nonetheless...

The nature of guilt is one of my favorite topics, and I deal with it extensively in my fiction.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 26-7-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
This country gave freedom..in a shackles sort of way.

The truth behind the master-slave relationship is something few care to study, but the dynamic at work is quite fascinating. Who controls whom?

Anyway, I liken freedom to a noose...

Given a noose, some men will hang themselves, some men will hang others, and a few individuals will give the noose away to another, and realize the profound freedom of submission.

how profound.. and true.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
What's interesting to note however, is that masons see themselves as separate from society to the extent that they must defend themselves from it. I don't know if this is a failing of society, or a failing of the masons, or simply a natural progression into cliques.

We defend ourselves from LIES, SLANDER and ATTACKS, not from a normal society. We have every right to defend ourselves from this.

The Jews shared this experience for thousands of years, constantly under the shadow of distrust and accusation because they kept their own ways.

Freemasonry is distrusted for many misconceptions and rumors, not because we keep our own ways. Freemasonry has changed A LOT to accomodate and ease criticism, and it hasn't changed a damn thing. People STILL believe whatever they want, regardless of the facts.

What you're saying in no way contradicts what I have said. Masons pass the role of judge up the heavenly ladder, and free themselves from their PERSONAL BURDEN of guilt. Re-read what I said, and if you still object, I'd like to know why.

This is completely not true. What you're saying is that a person who believes in God , but is a thief, steals and says "God made me this way." That is such a huge pile that I can't even beluieve you would say this! People who believe in God generally believe in punishment, and think they'll be judged by Him.

No, I would never condone a law that subjected masons to irregular scrutiny or burden of law. However, you saying that nothing is going on does not suffice as proof, for obvious reasons.

Everybody in prison declares their innocence. This is no different.

Yes, but everyone in prison has been PROVEN guilty! Freemasons haven't! It IS different! Nobody has EVER been able to maintain a decent case against Freemasonry, and it's obvious why.

We defend ourselves from LIES, SLANDER and ATTACKS, not from a normal society. We have every right to defend ourselves from this.

Of course you do.

As I said, it's entirely understandable.

What you're saying is that a person who believes in God , but is a thief, steals and says "God made me this way." That is such a huge pile that I can't even beluieve you would say this! People who believe in God generally believe in punishment, and think they'll be judged by Him.

Not just "God made me this way", but also "Judgement has already been passed, penance is the life we lead after our sins."

That's the key.

People who believe in God generally do believe in punishment and judgement, yes. Punishment and judgement meted out by a higher court than man can claim.

This is what I'm getting at. Check out the Baldwin quote for a better explanation than I could ever provide. It sums up my perspective perfectly.

Then read the quotes I've provided by Russo and Pike.

Proceed, if you would please, to point out the differences, if any, between the positions. I maintain that there is no difference, and if you indeed agree with Pike and Russo and Baldwin, then you agree with me.

So are we in agreement, or not?

Im an MM raised in April of 2005. The thing that baffles me the most is the many Masons on this forum that are willing to enter in to ignorant debates with the various critics of Masonry on ATS.

It is my belief that the operators of ATS use the secret society forums for the purpose of Mason baiting in order to increase internet traffic to the website, otherwise the moderators would bring an end to the redunant topics and posts that contiuously appear pertaining to Masonry.

I could careless whether anyone here is pro or anti Mason or whether anyone here approves or disapproves of my membership. If ya'll want to believe that I molest children, drink the blood of virgins and cavort with shape shifting lizards in the basement of a Masonic Temple that is ok with me.

I occasionally bring print outs of the some of the most outrageous threads to Lodge meetings for my brothers that are not on the internet to read, which keeps them shaking their heads and laughing for hours. I suggest that my brothers bring some print outs of this stuff to Lodge and your brothers will put the anti Mason comments here in the proper perspective.

That is all, feel free to continue with the festivities.
.

Originally posted by df1
It is my belief that the operators of ATS use the secret society forums for the purpose of Mason baiting in order to increase internet traffic to the website, otherwise the moderators would bring an end to the redunant topics and posts that contiuously appear pertaining to Masonry.

As a Mod here I take exception to this. This isn't the first time we've disagreed df1, did you think I forgot? This is tripe. AND it speaks to me, as this is one of my forums. This calls MY character into question. I think I've done well.

Intrepid
And you know all too well, I'm sure, that if you made a habit of deleting posts that questioned the masons, the detractors would scream to the rooftops that there was a conspiracy afoot, and that ATS was a front for the lizard-masons or whatever.



You can't win, can you? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

df1
I think you're too paranoid, and I rarely say that about anyone, nevermind the folks at ATS.

Originally posted by df1


..........................It is my belief that the operators of ATS use the secret society forums for the purpose of Mason baiting in order to increase internet traffic to the website, otherwise the moderators would bring an end to the redunant topics and posts that contiuously appear pertaining to Masonry. ....................

I think you bring up an interesting point.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
People who believe in God generally do believe in punishment and judgement, yes. Punishment and judgement meted out by a higher court than man can claim.

I don't think this is true at all. I, for example, respect the law VERY much. A few years ago I screwed up big time, made the worst mistake of my life, and paid hardily for it. When I went to court, i did not try to get a lawyer to weasel my way out of the punishment that I deserved, I took what the court gave me BECAUSE I DESERVED IT.

As masons, we are told to respect and put our obligations to the laws of the country in which we live BEFORE our obligations to Freemasonry. We are also told that violating the laws of the place where we live will lead to expulsion from the fraternity. Just about every mason I know is an exemplery citizen, many are even police officers, lawyers, etc. You think they don't respect crime and punishment?

So are we in agreement, or not?

No, we are not. You seem to think that masons think themselves superior to the law of the land, or the givernment of the country in which they live. Is this what you were getting at? Because if it is, it's absolutely false.

Originally posted by wiggy

Originally posted by df1


..........................It is my belief that the operators of ATS use the secret society forums for the purpose of Mason baiting in order to increase internet traffic to the website, otherwise the moderators would bring an end to the redunant topics and posts that contiuously appear pertaining to Masonry. ....................

I think you bring up an interesting point.

An interesting point, but one that is very much in error.
Threads involving Masonry are kept alive by you Masons more than anyone else. Well, you guys and, for the time being, me, in attempts to drive a point to y'all in hopes y'all will understand the reason behind the conspiracy theories and why y'all's (Is that too many apostrophes?) responses of "That's nothing but rubbish" does nothing to erase the suspicion.

If some of you would stop guerading our Secret Societies forum aas in you were the Knights Templar ( ), you'd see that the board is a brisk, bustling city and Masonic concerns are specks on the sidewalk. Not that I'm trying in the least to put you or your honorable but secretive power-hungry club for boys down, it's just that any mention of Masonry could be erased from the board and it really wouldn't change the status by a percentage.

Thomas, thats where the mason baiting would come in. Did you not read the quote?

And I am not a Freemason.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by wiggy]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Not that I'm trying in the least to put you or your honorable but secretive power-hungry club for boys down,

And you think you're not being a troll by making the above statement?

And I will do my part to make you see that you cannot make statements such as the one above with some evidence of such actions. So, please, provide evidence as to why you safely say that Freemasonry is "power-hungry", and we will just be on our way.

But the real question here is CAN YOU PROVIDE SUCH EVIDENCE?

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by df1
It is my belief that the operators of ATS use the secret society forums for the purpose of Mason baiting in order to increase internet traffic to the website, otherwise the moderators would bring an end to the redunant topics and posts that contiuously appear pertaining to Masonry.

As a Mod here I take exception to this. This isn't the first time we've disagreed df1, did you think I forgot? This is tripe. AND it speaks to me, as this is one of my forums. This calls MY character into question. I think I've done well.

Intrepid, I am indifferent as to whether you agree with me, whether you forgot, whether you take my comments personally or whether you believe I am questioning your character, as I have no power to correct any errors which may or may not exist in your thought process. If you knew me personally you would know that if I was going to question your character that I would do it in a manner which would leave no doubt about it.

You call my remarks tripe, however you know as well as I do that the bickering about Masonry in this thread is the same bickering about Masonry that is present in a multitude of other threads stretching back for years. And the reason that it is allowed continue is because the operators of ATS permit it and they do so for the purpose of driving traffic. This isnt a criticism of you, it is a fact. If I were operating ATS I would likely do many of the same things to drive traffic also.

The point I most wanted to make in my previous post is that I think my brother Masons should resist the Mason baiting and that each Mason should be his own moderator. Each response made by a Mason should be intended to provide accurate information about Masonry and in a manner that would result in the reader having a favorable opinion of Masonry. Without singling out any particular post, I believe that often the opposite occurs to the detriment of Masonry.
.

And, you shall not be here calling me a troll, sir. I point to one of your "Brothers'" statements as for the reason for my statement. I understand CRS as I suffer from it, too, so all you have to do is go back through this thread. You'll not even have to go all the way to it, as I mentioned it in a post shortly after his.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
And, you shall not be here calling me a troll, sir. I point to one of your "Brothers'" statements as for the reason for my statement. I understand CRS as I suffer from it, too, so all you have to do is go back through this thread. You'll not even have to go all the way to it, as I mentioned it in a post shortly after his.

Oh, so just because ONE person says so, then it MUST be true? I don't think the person who made the statements you are so elegantly taking out of context even IS a Freemason. Besides, even if he was, he is only speaking for himself. He does not speak for the fraternity. Regardless, he never said what you quoted him as saying. So do NOT mistake one person's quote and apply it to everyone. I am not power-hungry, my brothers are not power-hungry, my fraternity is not power-hungry.

Any mason who IS power-hungry is being so personall, and his desires do not reflect upon the desires of the entire fraternity.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Not you, Wiggy, but df1, and he suggested we allow this stuff to draw attention to the board.
What draws people to the board is the topics. The same thing that drew so many Masons to the board, who are predominately found in this forum, but for a different reason that the rest of us found this place.

Really? I'd say that goes against what I've noticed through the years, and what many Masons have told me, themselves. GOT IT?

Again, would I expect you to tell me the truth, were you to be more than a local lodge, beer-swillin', meeting-attendin' ol' boy member, and were in the top ranks and in the know, which is what the conspiracy theorists talk about. Not the local buds they know, although I have, on more thna one occasion, prove their love of communal power and flex their buddy-muscle to either get friends hired or those they do not like fired, or use their buddy-clout for other nefarious reasons that non-members don't.

I don't live in this computer, sir, and I have observed the world a little, too. That member, whether he is in the Masons now or not, articulated a driving reason why many folks become interested in the Masons.

Come on, tell me just one interesting secret; pleeeeaaase!?!?!?

Originally posted by umwolves123
how can you say this stuff is great...never mind what he says about masonry, but think about what this man says about OUR country. we can all have our different oppinions about masonry, illuminati, or anything else but each person should be thankfull for all our country has givin us.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by umwolves123]

You Americans are so good at projecting your supposed life liberty and your pursuit of happiness onto everyone of your so called countrymen.

Not everyone is living your American dream. Some of us aren't blinded by the stars and stripes wrapped around our heads. We don't cheer your baseball games. We don't support your illegitimate and illegal foreign wars. We don't give a sh!t about your moron president. We hate your CIA. We hate your fat ignorant TV-trained asses. Your precious America means nothing to us. It's just a landmass. Your Hollywood is a fairy tale that we don't believe in. Your apple pie has been in Europe for centuries. Your songs and dirges are annoying and ketchy. Your mutterings about the Constitution are hypocritical. Your hot rods and hot babes are not for us. Your CNN, your FOX, your MSNBC, your USA Today---they all make great bird cage liner. Your pop culture is a blight and an affront.

So take your country and shove it, pal. I'm tired of hearing about how we should all be thankful because America is so f'n great. Save your BS for someone who cares. Most people outside your precious America agree: America sucks!

The only thing I ever got from the USA was a passport. And as soon as I get enough money saved, I'm using it and NEVER COMING BACK!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Not you, Wiggy, but df1, and he suggested we allow this stuff to draw attention to the board.

I believe you have been Mason baiting through much of this thread, however I have no problem with you doing so. I do have great frustration with those taking the bait. ATS has many more interesting subjects than whether I engage in carnal pleasures with reptiles or not.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Really? I'd say that goes against what I've noticed through the years, and what many Masons have told me, themselves. GOT IT?

I'm sorry but I don't believe ANY real Freemasons have ever told you otherwise. I find that VERY hard to believe.

Again, would I expect you to tell me the truth, were you to be more than a local lodge, beer-swillin', meeting-attendin' ol' boy member, and were in the top ranks and in the know, which is what the conspiracy theorists talk about.

Oh, you mean like a Grand Lodge officer? Is that what you mean by Top Ranks? Because you KNOW that there is no such thing as an "upper echelon" in Freemasonry right? ALL masons are equal unless one gets elected for a one-year term to a Grand Lodge position. After the year is up, he goes back to being a "local lodge good 'ol boy". I have as much chance of being elected to Grand Lodge positions as any other mason.

Regardless, my personal mentor and one of my closest friend masons was a Grand Lodge officer, and he would tell you the exact same thing I have. Once you are inside the fraternity, it's a VERY transparent organization. All decisions being made at a Grand Lodge level must be passed by the entire jurisdiction of Freemasons for approval. So yes, I DO know what goes on at a "top ranks" level. And I will still give you the same answer as I have before.

Not the local buds they know, although I have, on more thna one occasion, prove their love of communal power and flex their buddy-muscle to either get friends hired or those they do not like fired, or use their buddy-clout for other nefarious reasons that non-members don't.

That's funny because I've been a mason for A LONG TIME and I have NEVER seen nor HEARD something like that EVER happen. The closest that I have ever seen to that was a cop mason being asked to use his police background-checking abilities to investigate a candidate, and he saying no because that would go farther than his masonic obligation would allow him.

I don't live in this computer, sir, and I have observed the world a little, too. That member, whether he is in the Masons now or not, articulated a driving reason why many folks become interested in the Masons.

No he didn't, I dont agree with what he said at all! The main reason men join the Craft is to be with men like themselves, who all want to work for the same goals.

Come on, tell me just one interesting secret; pleeeeaaase!?!?!?

Here's ya go:

www.ephesians5-11.org...

Whether or not you find that interesting is your business.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]