Why are there so many non-believers?

I would never intentionally try to change your beleive system or how to take evidence. I'm merly stating what I beleive, and I dont need anyone's storys or experiences to tell me what to beleive as you dont. I know within my self...not my experiences but my inner self the truth.

Regardless if anyones experiences truth or false there is only ONE truth out there, and to deny ignorance has nothing to do with how credible any experiencer is but has to do with the whole subject which is does non earth intelligent life visit us in crafts? to deny that would be ignorance.

Why? Because since we both agree life exist as this is a probability it is also true then that there are many different types of intelligent life out there. Then also they all must be in a different part of growth or evolution and be of different ages corresponding to this evolution and growth. Knowing this tells us that there could be many that can and have visited us in crafts being more advanced than us, And many that are less or equally as evolved as us.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by DarkCyrus]

Stop triple posting. Please.

Just the other day I saw something that I couldn't explain that happened to be falling and happened to be affecting the clouds around it. Was it aliens? Possibly. Prove it was or wasn't. I can't. But here you have a classic case. Physical evidence in the clouds and also in my digital camera.

Ok. I'm just blathering. I have nothing else to say.

I do not believe in aliens simply because there is no credible evidence. All those UFO phots nowadays are still fuzzy despite the fact that multimegapixel cameras still exist.

I do believe. I think it would be egocentric to think that there was nothing visiting our planet. I also think it would be egocentric to believe that "homosapiens" are the most intelliegent race. Also whats not to believe that there isn't something or someone cencoring everything that we watch, read, and hear about. You see that evidence in just looking at what countries allow what kind of information to be leaked through. There are also this has also got to be the biggest phenomenon in modern times. I mean how are you going to get different people from all over the world to describe such a phenomenon so discriptively similiar? Either way its a concept not to be swept aside and if not yet "proven", i would still keep the possibility linguring.

So many debunkers and skeptics mixed into the pot of believers. I can handle the skeptics as they seem to lack the knowledge of the UFO/EBE Subject, through lack of homework.

As for Debunkers or and Phys Friedman puts it: 'Noisy Negativists', they are the negative group composed of people either closed minded or working for an Agency who still thinks they can still convince the public that all people are crazy if they see little green men or flying saucers.

Debunkers are extreme, either they know at lot more than the average researcher about UFO/EBEs or know nothing.

Cause their lazy and don't do any research and find the simple path to just deny cause they know little to nothing under their brain pans on this subject.

As for believers they have read the data and facts to some degree -
HEY BELIEVERS!

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas

So many debunkers and skeptics mixed into the pot of believers. I can handle the skeptics as they seem to lack the knowledge of the UFO/EBE Subject, through lack of homework.

On the contrary - a good number seem to have put more into their research than many believers. The same goes for most debunkers...at least, that's obvious on these boards.

for Debunkers or and Phys Friedman puts it: 'Noisy Negativists', they are the negative group composed of people either closed minded or working for an Agency who still thinks they can still convince the public that all people are crazy if they see little green men or flying saucers.

Right, so anyone who doesn't "believe", or who offers alternative evidence....is either working for The Big Nasty Guvverment, or closeminded?! That's..insane logic. In fact, it's not logic at all. It's plain silliness. Is it beyond the reaches of logic that nonbelievers might have actually seen the same "evidence" as you and have simply come away with an entirely different conclusion?

Debunkers are extreme, either they know at lot more than the average researcher about UFO/EBEs or know nothing....cause their lazy and don't do any research.

Ok, which is it? They either know more than the average researcher, or they're lazy and don't do any research. Pick one. But please note that the statement doesn't amount to much more than "I'm right, you're wrong, so there!".

Does it make your argument more plausible to state that debunkers and/or skeptics aren't educated about such things? No - it actually demeans your argument...if only because it comes across as kindergarten tit-for-tat.

Originally posted by Netchicken
You saw something that you didn't understand. Some machine / event that did not fit your preconceptions of what should happen.

From that you infer that aliens from another planet created the machine?

Just how logical is that?

You have put your cultural belief as an answer to something you don't understand. Just like a stoneage person would consider a radio to be "majic". Or a TV to be "witchcraft".

You have tried to pull some mythos to explain an event or technology you don't understand.

If I was there with you and said it was Zeus in his flaming chariot, or an Angel, or Ra the sun god, you would think I was a nut, but those suggestions are just as valid as yours. There is nothing at all to back up your experience as being make by beings from another planet. Did they wave a tentacle at you out the window as they went by?

Just look at this logically.
We can't even get guys to the moon, yet we are prepared to accept that beings travel multi light-years and then crash on our puny planet?

Can you really consider the technology that is required to do that? That is so far beyond our ability to do that its out in our distant future. yet you accept it as real without really considering the implications of that belief.

If beings can do that, then they are so far advanced from us to be like we are to chimpansees. What the heck do they need from us that hey can't get without us even knowing? Why do they seem to have such human faults, for beings that must be almost beyond our comprehension.

Really science fiction books and TV have reduced down to the common and acceptable something that is immensly difficult and advanced. Lets get the level of debate out of the realm of TV and cultural literature and try and be more objective about it.

Doesn't it suprise people that the aliens always have 2 arms, 2 legs, and one head?

The human figure is hardly the best in the universe, some tentacles, extra legs, etc would be really handy. Why does no one say they encountered something that looks like a being with a non human shape, even the reptilians strangly resemble humans in crocodile suits.

Arn't people suprised that these beings also can breathe our atmosphere, easily handle our gravity, are not poisoned by anything in our environment?

Come on, really, beings fly across the universe to a planet that happens to suit them down to the ground? Whats the odds of that?

This is not an episode from Star trek.

Your concepts / ideas / imagination are formed from watching TV, just consider all the posts from people who consider stargate to be real.

People are unable to seperate reality from fiction, their concept of what is real is formed by what they see on the television. You are as much trapped in your cultural beliefs as a devout Hindu is accepting his pantheon of gods.

Aliens are your gods, the gods, of the secular 21st century that has forgone its cultural roots and created its own mythos. Like other cultures gods, they are here to save you, to control you, to help you, to enslave you.

The same thread topics here are the same concepts a Hindu would talk about with his / her gods, and like you they would deny that they are fictions.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by Netchicken]

I really like all of the points you made here Netchicken so I quoted the whole thing so ignorant people who can't think outside the box could read them.

It's like humans can't afford to think that we are not the smartest creatures in the galaxy. And I dislike when people say, "There isn't enough evidence." But yet the same people read the bible and say it is true. (i'm not saying always but most of the time) I don't see any evidence in front of me that proves the bible is true. I read it and I'm confused out of my head. So why put it past us that aliens aren't out there. If they are more advanced than us they wouldn't leave any evidence. Because infact they are more intelligent than us. Some humans just can't except that. Those humans are the humans who think they know everything. And those are the humans that aliens sit back and laugh at.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by sweetgal2004]

stop looking for proof, theres no such thing

lol, is that right?, how convenient. If they are really here meddling, abducting, mutilating and so on, and they are physical, then it stands to reason, its equally within the realms of possibility, that physical evidence should be obtainable.

Anyway, this pic has always fascinated me, does anyone know its origins?

Belief is best reserved for those who have first hand experience with the visitors, of whatever race or shape. I reserve judgement, and for a very good reason. There is literally too much junk in circulation. For someone like me who has read pretty much every report, heard every theory, seen every declassified document it becomes impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff. Almost every theory, whether based in truth or not either conflicts with or directly contradicts the one next to it. How is the average Joe supposed to believe? When faced with such an overwhelming flood of differing accounts the average person will turn away, with the attitude of "Humph, I'll believe it when i see it".

Is this down to disinformation? I think it is. The powers that be have done such a thorough job of flooding the UFO community with belivable yet incorrect reports it becomes impossible to form any firm beliefs. I will not, under any circumstances put my name to any one theory until I have first hand proof it is the right one. But again, we have a problem. How do I know it's the right one? How many are there? How many species have visited us, for how long and what is their agenda? Ha, how long have you got? A 10 minute session with Google will bring up hundreds of differing theories, each one with it's own merits. I gave up several years ago, I'm only just beginning to get back in touch with the UFO community and I see little has changed.

Maybe they've all been abducted and refuse to believe its true??

Never know...

I have been one to go for UFO sightings and Alien abductions. There may be evidence of such situations, but somehow, they appear all contrived. But I will say this, of course there must be something somehow somewhere out there. There must be more to reality than our ego. BUt I believe, we are trapped in the "I" of our reality. Why do aliens always look like us? Why do aliens always travel in space-craft that run by some engine or something akin to it? There used to be this thing that the Egyptian pyramids and Stone Henge were built by aliens...but when there are thousands of slaves, an engineers able to figure out how to manipulate sand, wood and rope (along with water canals), a pyramid by man is not so far-fetched. The Greek and Roman amphitheaters and palaces were built by older forms of "technology", so why not a pyramid or a stone henge?

If there is something anything out there somewhere someplace, it will probably not look like us, communicate like us in some form or other (even our own pet dogs do not understand language, even monekys and baboons, similar in genetics do not understand english, french, et cetera - though we do communicate via verbal tonal commands, eye contact, smell, et cetera), and it's taken us billions of years to develop into this unique thing we call human...out of all the infinite calculations in the universe known to humankind, an alien to look like us, to appear to us in some form or other in order to understand us is so off the mark that it goes into a can entitled: trash. But hey, people hold onto myths in the Roman, Greek, Nordic eras, why not also hold onto aliend abductions and UFO sightings. To each their own.

The only thing we have going for us, is a space station, that in the next 200 years (without us, those alive now), will be a self-sufficient thing flying around the universe in search of more space and time...planets and universes...and in search of self. Because in all actuality, man (woman) is just that, in search of self (the biger picture): who are we as a whole, where did all this come from, why we came to be, and how will we go about attempting to find out the answers to such questions.

Reality, what a concept? (Robin Williams) Who knows who will be the next person to develop an idea into action, only time will tell.................

Originally posted by T_Jesus
I'm a non believer - why? If there is one thing our government is horrible at, it's keeping a secret. What is the one thing the media loves to do? Blow things like secrets up to mammoth proportions. You all watch the news, you should know this.

It's not ignorance or fear - it's just that if the government knew, I'd probably know too. Especially something as huge as finding another intelligent life (which obviously does exist, somewhere).

The media does love to give a good story, but it's very naive to think they know it all. That shows you're too dependent on them. The Big Media doesn't cover some topics because they're told not to.

I am a believer, and I became a believer after I looked into the Disclosure Project. It's funny how nearly every press outlet attended the National Press Conference in 2001, but not a single station reported it! Now, don't you think if something so great as 20 whistleblowers coming forward on UFO's would get some tv time? NOBODY COVERED IT...and this exposes the double-standard society we live in. They don't cover things like aliens because they're told not to...either threatened or paid. And when you do see shows about it on TV...it's that fraud Peter Jennings! The evidence is definently out there...it's just a matter of whether or not you want to believe the evidence or continue living a lie.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by Koola]

So Sweetgal2004 are you going to repost my responce to NetChicken as well? If you feel that NetChicken is on the right track that is your right of course, but it seems a little unfair to double up on his reply and ignore the responses that I made to it.


I agree with you Tinkleflower that Skeptics and Debunkers play an important role in UFO investigation but the problem I have with so many of them is the hostility they seem to display, and the tactics they use.

The ones I respect are the ones who present all the points, pro and con, and then proceed to look at each and every one fairly. I sometimes have the same problem with those on the other side as well but not anywhere near the same level. Everyone picks the information that they feel is important, that is the nature of this sort of research. But when you are attempting to disprove something I think it is even more important to present the whole picture.

One really ugly example can be found in the book 'The Abduction Enigma' by Randle, Estes and Cone. If you read the first third of the book you would assume that the authors feel there is indeed some sort of reality behind Abductions. They quote from the more famous people in the field as if they believe the person is on the right track.

Then we come to Chapters 9-17 where they proceed to rip, both professionally and personally, they very people they were quoting to pieces. If you accept what they say then you would not ever listen to any of these 9 have to say about anything. For those who are Doctors you wonder why they were ever allowed to practice anything.

These sorts of tactics are just dirty. If someone wishes to write a book with the overall point this book trying to make then that is fine. But it should be stated up front, 'We believe that it is all a human problem with no ET connection whatsoever and we will show you why'.

There are people who believe that every single UFO sighting or story is a hoax, or at best a huge mistake on the parts of the observer. This to me is just sad, there are reasons to be cynical in this World, there are lots of bad people. But most are not, and the assumptions that many Skeptics and Debunkers make seem to me to be more based on a personal issues rather than an objective look at the facts.


A.T
(-)

Sorry. Nonsense. Debunkers are non-persuasive from the get-go. They have an opinion but based on little or no research. Or their working for a gov agency to debunk all researchers and believers.

The rest is abunch of crap. It took me appx 15 years to believe, 14 years of which I stayed on fence and researched what I could feel safe in believing. Then I told my friends and family how and why I became abeliever.

Doesn't make me right but it suggests I'm fair.

Dallas

Regardless of anyones stance on debunkers, they serve a very important purpose. They keep us grounded. They make us question our beliefs and look at things from a different perspective, which in this subject is vitally important. As I previously stated there is so much nonsense associated with the whole UFO subject it is good to get a fresh pair of eyes to look it over.

And I have to disagree with Dallas to a certain extent. You are correct in a sense, but to say that ALL debunkers use little or no evidence is incorrect. There are many serious scientists and professionals who have cast a critical eye over many a theory. Of course there are always going to be people who say "Aliens? Pah, utter rubbish" and these are the ones who we don't need to listen to. But I contend we don't ignore the serious debunkers. Read what they say. If it helps form an unbiased opinion then it is a good thing.



[edit on 5-8-2005 by Maus0r]

Originally posted by Dallas

Doesn't make me right but it suggests I'm fair.

Dallas

You're saying that you're fair - yet you collectively call all debunkers non-persuasive with opinions based on little or no research? That's hardly the fairest commentary....

You might be astonished to hear this, but some of us "de-bunkers" have spent years researching various topics. Most of us (I'm speaking only for myself, really - I can't speak for anyone else) don't work for the government. We're certainly not paid to shovel out buckets of disinformation

Nothing you've said so far indicates you're being fair-minded about those who offer evidence, opinions or proof contrary to your beliefs; this makes it difficult to give credence to such a biased source, you know?

And that makes it harder for everyone involved to come to any sort of "agree to disagree" kind of situation.

First of all im not saying tinkle is right or wrong but is it not funny how he/she seems to take apart "beleivers" post's and try to discredit them or make them appear wrong? But I do beleive tinkle and people of the like are an important part of this whole thing but its when people like that start taking cheap shots and go low down and dirty if you know what I mean, which I dont beleive tinkle did. When they go too far they cant be helping anyone out.

Is there life in the universe other than what's on Earth? There absolutely has to be. We're one planet orbiting a star in a galaxy of ~400 billion stars in a universe with over 400 billion galaxies. To think we're "it" is just ludicrous and can only be chalked up to human arrogance. Is that life visiting our planet? Doesn't seem very likely, unless that other life can travel faster than the speed of light or they live "nearby" at one of the 4 or 5 "close" star systems and don't mind traveling for 10+ years to visit us. But if they can travel faster than light are they visiting us? It's possible I suppose.

However, I have yet to see real proof of anything extra terrestrial -- and with the explosive proliferation of camera phones, video cameras, digital cameras, etc., in the past ten years it makes me even more doubtful. I mean, you can turn on your TV and watch a "real TV" type show where somebody, by chance, happens to video tape his buddy being yanked out of a professional fishing boat by a big marlin he's caught (breaking the chair and restraints and pulling the fisherman into the water attached to the rod -- the fisherman survived only because the marlin didn't sound) or you can watch a video of any number of incredible events that just happen to get caught on tape by somebody with a video camera -- but nobody seems to be able to video tape a 'UFO' with any quality or clarity. That just seems really peculiar.

Prior to digital cameras (According to PMA Marketing Research, 25 billion digital photos are expected to be taken this year alone, and that's not counting all the digital video consumers are capturing. source) we had millions of "Instamatic" cameras (Polaroid) but nobody has any photos of UFOs with one of those (heck between 1963 and 1970 Kodak made over 50 million instamatics alone!). 35mm cameras have been around (and common) for over 60 years, but there isn't one single quality (clear) photograph of a ufo. That seems even more peculiar to me.

Until somebody, somewhere, out of the ~1 billion people on this planet who own a video camera, digital camera or 35mm camera, takes a clear quality image of a ufo - I'm going to have to remain a doubter. Blurry lights in an out of focus camera just doesn't cut it for me.

If you're a UFO buff/hunter, or hope to take photographs of strange lights/objects in the sky one day, I have one strong suggestion for you to share with all your friends and colleagues. . .

BUY A TRIPOD!

All this time and nobody wants to get to the heart of the issue. Oh, well, I have thick skin.
My favorite, politically incorrect, definition of sanity is the ability to tell real from unreal. But the converse is not always true.
Acceptance of the unreal as real does not necessarily mean insane. It means we enter another definition. The
word now becomes "believer", which is a statement about faith. To be a believer means you have accepted that which you
believe upon a faith that it is real. And that should ring a bell. Religion is faith based. Many other things are as well.
Faith exists whether we recognize it or not. When you board a airliner at an airport, for example, you must
have some kind of faith in the craft and its pilots or you would not board.

Following so far ?
Now the ugly part.

A faith based belief system is necessarily biased. When attacked, such a system usually grows stronger.
It is attacked by refutation. True believers will not consider any argument
at all that refutes their beliefs. They cannot do this because their faith is stronger than the strongest argument.
Many of you reading this part are probably thinking of the Christians or other religious folk you know. But
I have re-read some of the "believers" responding under this topic and can only conclude
that "UFO believers" has become another "religion". You get baptized by a "first" sighting, your own
personal proof that ET is real. Too many other parallels as well.

But there is an important difference between the ET believers and other religious folk. Christians for example,
will generally agree that God is outside the universe (creator) and therefore cannot be proven or disproven
from inside the universe (creation).

UFO believers have a unique religious problem here. UFO's pretty much have to be inside the universe,
which means they CAN be proven or disproven. The longer the "proof" debate goes on, the more likely
that the ET religion will collapse from the burden of proof required.

But I cant stop there, I am on a roll. He....He....and the best for last. Guess who plays the Lucifer part
in the ET religion. Yep, its the big bad government, who eats all the UFO evidence and constantly
attacks the Saints (UFOlogists) through deception, lies, and disinformation.

Note to self, be sure and credit Netchicken for the "revelations":
(Aliens are your gods, the gods, of the secular 21st century that has forgone its cultural roots and created its own mythos.
Like other cultures gods, they are here to save you, to control you, to help you, to enslave you.
In the first post in this thread substitute "God" for "UFO's", and see. It could be written by a devout christian.)