Why are there so many non-believers?

You saw something that you didn't understand. Some machine / event that did not fit your preconceptions of what should happen.

From that you infer that aliens from another planet created the machine?

Just how logical is that?

You have put your cultural belief as an answer to something you don't understand. Just like a stoneage person would consider a radio to be "majic". Or a TV to be "witchcraft".

You have tried to pull some mythos to explain an event or technology you don't understand.

If I was there with you and said it was Zeus in his flaming chariot, or an Angel, or Ra the sun god, you would think I was a nut, but those suggestions are just as valid as yours. There is nothing at all to back up your experience as being make by beings from another planet. Did they wave a tentacle at you out the window as they went by?

Just look at this logically.
We can't even get guys to the moon, yet we are prepared to accept that beings travel multi light-years and then crash on our puny planet?

Can you really consider the technology that is required to do that? That is so far beyond our ability to do that its out in our distant future. yet you accept it as real without really considering the implications of that belief.

If beings can do that, then they are so far advanced from us to be like we are to chimpansees. What the heck do they need from us that hey can't get without us even knowing? Why do they seem to have such human faults, for beings that must be almost beyond our comprehension.

Really science fiction books and TV have reduced down to the common and acceptable something that is immensly difficult and advanced. Lets get the level of debate out of the realm of TV and cultural literature and try and be more objective about it.

Doesn't it suprise people that the aliens always have 2 arms, 2 legs, and one head?

The human figure is hardly the best in the universe, some tentacles, extra legs, etc would be really handy. Why does no one say they encountered something that looks like a being with a non human shape, even the reptilians strangly resemble humans in crocodile suits.

Arn't people suprised that these beings also can breathe our atmosphere, easily handle our gravity, are not poisoned by anything in our environment?

Come on, really, beings fly across the universe to a planet that happens to suit them down to the ground? Whats the odds of that?

This is not an episode from Star trek.

Your concepts / ideas / imagination are formed from watching TV, just consider all the posts from people who consider stargate to be real.

People are unable to seperate reality from fiction, their concept of what is real is formed by what they see on the television. You are as much trapped in your cultural beliefs as a devout Hindu is accepting his pantheon of gods.

Aliens are your gods, the gods, of the secular 21st century that has forgone its cultural roots and created its own mythos. Like other cultures gods, they are here to save you, to control you, to help you, to enslave you.

The same thread topics here are the same concepts a Hindu would talk about with his / her gods, and like you they would deny that they are fictions.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by muzzleflash
anyways ive never seen an alien so maybe UFOs are not aliens
i do have reasons to think they are; due to my expierances

Also, "humans" and "aliens" don't have to be "all there is". What about humans from the far futures or far pasts? What about entities from other dimentions? What about possible secret underground installations that existed for thousands of years composed of high-tech beings? What about entities that are partially physical and partly pure consciousness? And of course everyone's favorite, secret government craft. The UFO phenomenon is probably a combination of all or most of the above and more that I can't even think of at this time.

So these "craft" could be hyperdimentional reality-shifting thought forms (humor me!), or just government experimental piece of floating tuna cans, and something in between. Personally, I'd be more interested in what their intentions and actions are instead of trying to figure out what planet they come from and whether they like fried rice

[edit on 18-7-2005 by lilblam]

Can you really consider the technology that is required to do that? That is so far beyond our ability to do that its out in our distant future. yet you accept it as real without really considering the implications of that belief.

If beings can do that, then they are so far advanced from us to be like we are to chimpansees. What the heck do they need from us that hey can't get without us even knowing? Why do they seem to have such human faults, for beings that must be almost beyond our comprehension.


Some time not very long ago, it was inconceivable for humans to embark in a ship and sail beyond visual range of the coast. e.g. "Without the firm reference of land, where would they go? How could they navigate? Where would they end up? "

Now, we routinely step in a boat which contrary to all laws of man and nature sails in air and not the sea, unattached by any material object and in a short time we are many month's travel away. And the most remarkable thing is that the bored beings aboard whinge about the rations served aboard unaware of the obvious hands of the gods holding them up.

And yet, we recognize every single one of the characters and political machinations of the classical Greek plays, even as their sailors carefully hugged the coast in rude sail and man powered wooden boats.

Or, as floating palace believer Ixthiathanitoc said to his Aztec buddy as they witnessed an Unidentified Floating Object disembark pale beings with sharp shiny clubs and strange four legged work-beasts, "Oh pshaw. Surely any alien civilization so far advanced that they can sail across the continents has moved far beyond our own land's pathetic history of conquest, pillage and religious superstition."

What strikes me more is not the fact all those non-believers, BUT the fact that they "waste" their times coming to a UFO forum to read about the subject.

The explanation i have to this subject is that they WANT to believe and deeply in their thoughts they know we could NOT be alone.


About God and aliens as i read in the first posts on this thread.
Actually there is MUCH more evidence of aliens than God.

But then again as someone stated already its futile to try to convince this kind of ppl.
Just let them with their closed mind and ignorance, doesnt matter how many evidences you show them. For this kind of ppl the only thing they believe is what CNN report.

Originally posted by LordBucket
>If you can prove to me they exist then I will believe.

Prove to me that dinosaurs were real.

You serious??? Ok, simple answer: Go and look in any of the natural history sections in any museum anywhere in the world and check out the fossilised proof!!

As for aliens...Please provide me with absolute proof and I'll become a believer rather than a skeptic.

Grey Pilgrim

I read the whole thread and most say they want total proof that aliens exist before they believe in aliens. There's no total proof that god exists but the majority of the people believe in him,with no real proof that he exists so why do they need hard evidence to believe in aliens?

Originally posted by wezzgy
I read the whole thread and most say they want total proof that aliens exist before they believe in aliens. There's no total proof that god exists but the majority of the people believe in him,with no real proof that he exists so why do they need hard evidence to believe in aliens?

Can't speak for anyone else....but I'm not a believer in God or aliens, if we're labelling in black and white terms. Sure, either or both could exist. But I need a little more in terms of proof.

I suppose I'm not in the majority. Ah well...I was never popular at school, either

``

you can count me among the believers.

but you won't hear my spouting off about ETs or preaching/evangelizing
about them/it.

i tend to 'compartmentalise'...
i.e. sure, it's most probable there are ETs !
but- as for Aliens visiting Earth & interacting with people-
thats a different matter.

believing in other life forms in the universe, does not have to affect my
conduct or actions in functioning in the everyday world of family life or the work-a-day necessity, or all the other interactions in daily life.

so, i guess, i'm most likely among the silent majority of 'closet' believers,
content to explore my imaginings with others in a friendly atmosphere
of open minded friends, maybe using a new movie or a new book as a springboard to explore this ( 'thin ice' ) territory.

the people who avoid are usally people who could be afraid of there existance or they have or maybe encounterd somthing strange and can't explain it and it frightens them when they think about it so they try to make themself feel good and cover it up bby saying some b.s

from cnn live

bsr5 says:

I'm just really curious, people always try to find a logical explanation, when in fact the logical explanation IS that it can be extraterrestrial, what is not logical about that?

Actually, most people don't try to find the "logical" explanation; they very often believe what they want to believe. And your saying tht an UFO can be Spaceship Guys, is not evidence that they are. One of the next ten people who drive down your street could be a homicidal serial killer, but we don't think he is.

We simply don't know enough about the universe to say that we are the only ones in it, from our current knowledge, it is estimated there could be billions or hundred billion other planets or planetary systems out there. So why not believe?

I think that even the poeple who don't believe that UFOs are Spaceship Guys would not say that there's life -- and quite possibly "intelligent" life -- in the universe., Like you say the sheer number of planets where such life could arise is so great that somewhere it's almost a certianty. But that's not evidence that the Spaceship Guys are here or have ever been here

Why is it they say there is lack of evidence? I mean think about this for a minute, if they are so advanced, 100,000, possibly millions of years advanced, then wouldn't they be able to appear and disappear at will?

Because that's not evidence, that's a supposition. You're saying, in effect, that "maybe the Spaceship Guys can do this thing, therefore that's evidence that they can."

No. That's faulty logic. Evidence is not supposition, it is something you can hold in your hand, or pictures, or artifacts. You don't have any of that stuff.

Now that doesn't mean Spaceship Guys on Earth don't exist, but you simply don't have any real evidence for it -- at least, not yet.

Everyone is fully entitled to their own opinion, on anything. Disclaimer out of the way and meant in the most honest fashion.

Almost anyone rational who looks at 100 Billion Galaxies and counting is willing to acknowledge that other life exists.

Then we get nit-picky...

Not Intelligent Life
Ok, intelligent life, but it has not visited
Well Visited, but not crashed
Visited, but not today, not here, not... now

Pure human finite thinking.

We do this to ourselves, we hoax, we make a dishonest buck. And oh do we ever hate to be fooled. Let a person believe in something that is then disproven and they might never believe again, no matter how strong the evidence before them.

Human fear change, sad but true. To look forward to change usually gets you the label of 'wacko' or 'radical' or just 'fool'. To even consider what might be out there in the Universe is no small challenge.

For some time now I have felt that there is a test in progress, one being run by my own government, and others. Sooner or later enough people are going to move far enough from 'other life' to something realistic enough to withstand the full scope of the truth.

If I have ever understood anything at all about life then the full scope of the truth is beyond adjectives, not Big, not Huge, not MASSIVE, beyond all of that.


A.T
(-)

Originally posted by wezzgy
I read the whole thread and most say they want total proof that aliens exist before they believe in aliens. There's no total proof that god exists but the majority of the people believe in him,with no real proof that he exists so why do they need hard evidence to believe in aliens?

Maybe you should start a thread then that says " Why are there so many atheists, when there are so many people you have near death experiences and so many people who say theyve been saved by angels? So why so many non-believers, do they not look at the facts?" and so on

Netchicken,

I am nor sure if you were directing your comments to a specific person but since you did not indicate that I am going to take them as general towards us all.

You saw something that you didn't understand. Some machine / event that did not fit your preconceptions of what should happen.

From that you infer that aliens from another planet created the machine?

No one makes this sort of observation in isolation. If we did not have a long running history of UFO sightings then your comment would make sense. Seeing something that you believe is not-of-this-Earth puts you in the company of quite a lot of people, some with solid records of accomplishment and knowledge. A President of the United States springs to mind.

Just look at this logically.
We can't even get guys to the moon, yet we are prepared to accept that beings travel multi light-years and then crash on our puny planet?

Not sure how to take that since we have indeed landed on the Moon. The conspiracy theories that surround the 'we faked the moon landing' are the
sorts of things that give the word 'conspiracy' a bad name. That idea makes a whole lot less sense that Alien Life visiting.

Ahh, the perfection arguement. Somehow once you reach a certain level of technical achievement you become perfect? Murphy no longer applies?

No matter how powerful a Race might be they are not perfect, anyone can crash.

If beings can do that, then they are so far advanced from us to be like we are to chimpansees. What the heck do they need from us that hey can't get without us even knowing? Why do they seem to have such human faults, for beings that must be almost beyond our comprehension.

It has always seemed to me that what 'they' want from us more than anything is to understand us. That would be one goal where they would have to interact with some of us eventually. Since we do indeed see some of what is going on it is only logical to assume that a lot goes on that we do not, by a couple of orders of magnitude.

Doesn't it suprise people that the aliens always have 2 arms, 2 legs, and one head?

It would if it were true but it is not. We have reports of creatures all along the spectrum. We tend to discount the wilder ones because they are harder for us to understand but that is probably a mistake.

Come on, really, beings fly across the universe to a planet that happens to suit them down to the ground? Whats the odds of that?

How do you know that? Even the most basic look at the reported events to date shows a dozen 'ships only' to every one 'beings on the ground'. And even with that there are plenty of possibilities for technology that modifies the environment to suit their requirements.

Seriously, and with all due respect, you speak as if we had detailed knowledge of things that do not yet know. There are arguements to be made, but none of these are them.

Your concepts / ideas / imagination are formed from watching TV, just consider all the posts from people who consider stargate to be real.

I understand how you feel when you see someone who seems to think that particular show has more historical background than it does. But even then...

Consider two ideas.

One, Teleportation is not only possible, we are doing experiments right now on it. We have had some beginning successes. So while the 'Stargate' is not real, the idea it represents is.

Two, the possibility that the source for some myths is an Alien visiting this planet. As you pointed out, and Mr. Clarke said in a slight variation from his Third Law 'any sufficiently advanced technology is magic'. If an advanced being visited, they would be taken for gods, it would be the natural human assumption.

So while pure fiction in all other senses, SG1 does contain those two elements which are quite possible. That does give it a power.

Aliens are your gods, the gods, of the secular 21st century that has forgone its cultural roots and created its own mythos. Like other cultures gods, they are here to save you, to control you, to help you, to enslave you

That is true for a minority of the people here, maybe a little higher percentage in the total population of the World. Some humans have taken to worship forms of Alien Life, and some are afraid. Personally I think this is just following in a long tradition.

I remember reading the story of Thor for the very first time. I was quite young but the memory is still vivid. He rides in his chairiot pulled by 2 goats. He eats the goats at night and by morning they are restored. Very efficient, unless you wish to fly before the dawn.

Flying, Hammer, regenerating, a 'god', one of many. Humans put 'human' in anyplace that has 'unknown' in it, moreover we put 'ourselves' in more often than not. But that is us it has nothing to do with what the unknown really is like.

So there is a majority here who do not see Aliens as anything other than a different form of life. We believe this because of the weight of the evidence assembled since man first looked into the sky.

Oh, and the math, 100 Billion Galaxies and counting, odds we are it, etc.


A.T
(-)

Good post Alexander, I appreciate the time and effort taken to read and reply to my post.

However just prove to me that we have the ability to go to the moon by popping over there and bringing me back some moon rock.

You can't do it.

It requires zillions of dollars, heaps of months, and highly trainined personell to even get that far. Thats what I was meaning, the technological strain on our society to even achieve that mundane target is almost beyond us.

Going to the moon is nothing like "sailing a ship to America" or as ordinarly as going to the shop for some milk. Its a # load of work to push 6 people there.

On another topic.
True that we create our perceptions from our environment, but that is my point.
Our environment is saturated in aliens and ufo's. The legacy of the 60's science fiction books has been an entire culture bought up to belive that star trek / star wars / SGI etc are not only plausable but just around the corner for us.

This is not true.

As a result we take extremely difficult, to be near to "magic" technologies (such as teleportation, light travel, etc) and assume that aliens can do it, and so can we. (BTW check out the teleportation stuff, from what I read it is not taking the atoms of an individual, moving them, and reassembling them. and even if it was its only at a miniscule level )

Whats the result of al this UFO indoctrination?

Anything you can't explain is suddenly attributed to aliens. yet if you just stop and think about the concepts you so readily take on board you can see how fantastic are your underlying assumptions.

Sure there are heap loads of people who believe in aliens. But does that make it true? Heap loads believe in Shiva the destroyer as well. Numerical bodies does not make truth. Just like a religion you need to have faith. And you need "faith" to believe in UFOS. Its the same operation at play, you can't prove it but you believe in it.

UFO belief is a religion. Like other religions its reinforced by sproadic "proof events" (Lourdes, Fatima miracle, bleeding statues, etc) There is no objective concrete reality to your belief.

In the first post in this thread substitute "God" for "UFO's", and see. It could be written by a devout christian.

On aother topic....

Aliens can create technology that carries them to other planets, ... they fly lightyears (imagine the task that involves, really imagine it, read some scientific articles on FTL travel and see the impossibility of it) then they make a mistake and crash? Oh come on, lets grab the reality cord here and bring this train of fantasy to a halt..

Sure I have heard apologists saying "they can't cope with the magnetic flux of the planet". But come on, they can fly across lightyears but arn't technological enough to cope with that? Its a farce, and a giant joke perpetuated on a gullible TV saturated culture.

Have you seen the latest on Roswell? Here is a thread about the new book. Here is a review of the book.

The way this guy described it to me was that the British actually got quite suspicious of the American’s assertion that a UFO crashed at Roswell and did some digging of their own and came up with information that suggested that 25 years ago, the British knew or suspected that Roswell didn’t involve an alien space craft. As this guy said me, and I quote him almost word for word from the book, “They came up with the idea that the Americans had been buggering around with Japanese prisoners of war brought over at the end of the Second World War.” ..............

And she said to me, from her memory based upon what she was told that a number of experiments were undertaken from White Sands missile range in New Mexico in a period that extends from May ’47 through at least July ’47 and possibly August ’47. Basically there were three or four different types of tests.

One, there were high altitude balloon experiments where people were put in gondola type devices and just lifted up and in some cases they would be afforded no protection or high altitude breathing apparatus, nothing at all, purely to see what the effects would be. There were other experiments used with prototype ejection capsules; ejecting people at high speed, if you like. Some of these she said were ground based ejection capsules that would just shoot somebody out – not like an ejection seat but literally a capsule.

These were prototype experiments. Several of these living Unit 731 people were used in these experiments and tests with several crashing off range and having been seen by the general public.


She said this is where these tales about crashed UFOs and strange bodies and weird flying contraptions in the desert come from in this period. She further said that where it gets confusing is that there were four or five different things going on at least, that she was aware of, from this period of May to August ’47, all in the same location roughly in New Mexico.

People, thirty or forty, fifty years on when they were interviewed, one person would have one aspect of one story, someone else would have another aspect of another story, somebody would say, “The crash was here” and somebody else would say, “No, the crash was there”. And somebody else would say, “No, it was two miles in this direction,” Somebody else would say, “Well, we saw three bodies” while someone else would say, “We saw four bodies at the crash site” while the sceptics would say, “That’s because they are all making it up.”

They were looking at it from the perspective of the case they were aware of, but there was so much going on with these experiments, so many different incidences in a small mileage area that then kind of answers some of the questions as to why somebody saw three bodies at a crash, somebody saw four, and somebody may even have seen two.


The story I got was that the Japanese Unit 731 people and documents and even the scientists, the personnel involved, were brought over to the States to continue some of this research and that’s what led to these legends of strange bodies having been found in the vicinity of unusual aircraft. And that’s the bottom line; the Americans were carrying on with the war crimes the Japanese had committed and were using Japanese personnel to do it on American soil.

Some of these were the high altitude balloon experiments, ejector capsule experiments, even radiation experiments at Los Alamos, using some of these people who were already dead; these bodies that were on ice, literally just to see what the effects of radiation would be and ejecting a body from a seat at high speed and seeing what the effects are.

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, than an entire culture implodes with the legs kicked out from under it. The famous Roswell episode is based on military lies.


[edit on 19-7-2005 by Netchicken]

>>Prove to me that dinosaurs were real.
>You serious??? Ok, simple answer: Go and look in any of the
>natural history sections in any museum anywhere in the world
>and check out the fossilised proof!!

These could very easily be scams perpetrated by con artists and deluded people who want to believe. In fact...hoaxes and fraudulent "fossils" are remarkably common, and very easy to demonstrate. For example:

Piltdown Man Hoax
Dinosaur-Bird Missing Link Fraud
The Feejee Mermaid
The Cardiff Giant

So clearly, fossils are not a reliable "proof."

Prove to me that dinosaurs were real.

Originally posted by Netchicken
If beings can do that, then they are so far advanced from us to be like we are to chimpansees. What the heck do they need from us that hey can't get without us even knowing?

And yet we seem to have this strange fascination with studying chimpanzees... Heck, people have spent their whole lives up in the mountains living with chimps.

Also, I find it odd that people keep bringing up God when it comes to figuring out if Ailens are real. I'm not quite sure if the two compare. The two forms of evidence are completely different. Lots of people, but not everyone, have seen an unidentified flying object. However, everyone has seen and smelled and tasted and touched and heard this Earth. I dunno about you, but that's enough evidence for me. I'm sure somebody will come on with a smart response to that last bit, but they'll just be trying to change the subject.

You know what I find harder to believe than Aliens is the fact that the government tries to cover them up with swamp gas and Venus or Saturn or comets that magically stop in mid-air. I also think it important that many people that have seen UFOs weren't alone when they saw them. Big difference.

Also look at history. We have whole cultures with whole pantheons of Gods, such as the Egyptians or the Greeks. Everyone believed in them, supposedly saw their handiwork, built them temples, sacrificed their children to them. Now, no one on Earth worships the Greek gods or the Egyptian gods or the Norse gods, etc.

Today the far majority of people believe (surprisingly) very strongly that Aliens don't exist. Despite the fact that it is doubtful that will change, it probably will. Just my humble opinion, of course.

Oxgoad, is it easier to believe in UFO's and aliens, or that the military has a zillion dollar black budget which produces equipment that needs to be tested?

What better way to hide the existance of experimental planes flying around than to feed them off to the ufo believers via disinformation.

No one believes in swamp gas, especially when its seen on radar, but seemingly people will believe UFO's rather than experimental planes. A result that keeps the military happy....

PROOF, you can't handle the PROOF!!! (sorry, I just had to!!)

There is a huge debate as to what amout of proof will suffice. Some here have seen enough, read enough, thought enough, and felt enough to be comfortable already. Some require the LKL-20/20 interview in PrimeTime to believe. It is for each person to determine his or her own 'tolerance' for proof.

Those who claim the proof is already here have a sizeable case. Tens of thousands of sightings, hundreds of 'very credible' sightings (large groups - coroborating testimony, VIDEO, etc). Secret Government Documents, Bases, etc. It is absolutely PONDEROUS in it's sheer volume. If you say proof isn't here, can all of this, ALL OF IT be a hoax. An elaborate 5,000 year hoax, a thinking person would have to say NO, and in that NO is a YES!! You should belief that UFO's/Aliens exist, this PREPONDERENCE of evidence is simply UNDENIABLE. And yet skeptics remain rooted in the lack of 'hard' evidence. In this country, deathrow inmates were convicted with MUCH MUCH LESS!!

Let's put a little 'reverse english' on this now. If you were (oh, don't think HUMAN now), an intelligent Alien race with remarkable technology, would you 'lower' yourself to 'proving' to a non-developed race you existed. You have no common ground, what could we truly offer them to make them WANT to be on 20/20, what's the pay-off.
Picture the scene, control room, alien craft, two aliens conversing:
[Lord Finkdarf of RomuCetiPrime2: "These humans seem slow, dimwitted, and generally very violent, wonder how many would drop dead at the very site of us"]
[General DGJKEU: "My Lord must I remind you of Doconus8, 32 billion in 48 hours, the Galactic counsel nearly revoked our graviton generator for that one"]
[Lord Finkdarf of RomuCetiPrime2: "Of Course you are right General, give them 8 more pictures this cycle and let's head home, maybe they'll be ready in another 5000 years"]

A little over the top I agree, but stop HUMANIZING our 'visitors' from afar, we certianally don't 'catch them' nearly as much as I believe they ALLOW US to have a brief glimpse. To whet our appetite so to speak, see how we think and react. The 'original' War of the Worlds radio broadcast was the first real test, and we failed miserably, let's hope we don't blow our next opportunity.

The PROOF is out there - do you have the STOMACH for it.

Are you willing to concede all of our achievements, our supposed greatness, the uniqueness of our species, mean little if anything in the Galactic sense of history. I believe that PRIDE is the reason for so many non-believers, selfish human pride. To concieve of something greater than you, you must be willing to shrink just a little. Pride determines our 'tolerance' for proof, and many aren't willing to 'shrink' just a little.

Originally posted by SneakySnake
PROOF, you can't handle the PROOF!!! (sorry, I just had to!!)

There is a huge debate as to what amout of proof will suffice. Some here have seen enough, read enough, thought enough, and felt enough to be comfortable already. Some require the LKL-20/20 interview in PrimeTime to believe. It is for each person to determine his or her own 'tolerance' for proof.

Those who claim the proof is already here have a sizeable case. Tens of thousands of sightings, hundreds of 'very credible' sightings (large groups - coroborating testimony, VIDEO, etc). Secret Government Documents, Bases, etc. It is absolutely PONDEROUS in it's sheer volume. If you say proof isn't here, can all of this, ALL OF IT be a hoax. An elaborate 5,000 year hoax, a thinking person would have to say NO, and in that NO is a YES!! You should belief that UFO's/Aliens exist, this PREPONDERENCE of evidence is simply UNDENIABLE. And yet skeptics remain rooted in the lack of 'hard' evidence. In this country, deathrow inmates were convicted with MUCH MUCH LESS!!

Nobody saying its a hoax what we're saying is that the masses are blinded by their belief for ET. Little kids are like ET believers, kids believe in Santa, to them the proof that the cookies are eaten and the toys are under the tree is proof enough. But not all is what it seems. The kids have been blinded by their belief in Santa that they dont look into why Santa can be in two malls at once or why santa can kit in the chimney. So I guess that if you truely believe you must have not believed first.

here some pictures if your intrested www.alienshift.com...