Rove Learned About Plame From Journalists

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Plame was not stationed overseas nor had been for 5 years, therefore
she clearly doesn't qualify as a covert agent under the law.

Careful dj .... those are FACTS and of course that gets in the way of
the radical left wing rhetoric ... they won't like it! Facts interrupt
the beat of the anti-Rove war drums.

OF COURSE she wasn't a covert agent ... her hubby just looooooved
telling everyone that his wife worked for the CIA. He's madly in love
with attention and the camera.

FlyersFan,

Isn't it amazing how fast the liberal left drops their civil rights rhetoric and the rule of law to turn into an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches when the target is a conservative?

They want the terrorists in Guantanamo to get jury trials in the U.S. while they want Rove to be tossed out and thrown in jail without a trial and without a legal reason to do it.

[edit on 7/16/2005 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by koji_K
Could you expound on this? What report are you talking about? Wilson reported that claims of Iraq's attempt to purchase yellowcake from Niger were false, and it is generally accepted now that this was the case. The documents suggesting otherwise, which Wilson was sent to Niger to investigate, were themselves fabricated by dubious intelligence sources recruited by the OSP (namely, the one codenamed "curveball"). I know of no other evidence suggesting that Wilson did his job in Niger, and did it well.

This is not true. A bipartison Senate Intelligence Committee report totally discredited Wilson's report, and concluded he was a liar. British Intelligence stands by their report that Saddam was trying to get yellow cake from Niger.

www.nationalreview.com...

[edit on 7/15/2005 by djohnsto77]

I'm familiar with the Senate Intelligence Committee's Prewar Intelligence report... I must say that this is the first time I've seen someone calling themselves a conservative mention it on ATS.

The report made no such conclusion. It mentions Wilson's possible lack of grounds for making a comment that the forged documents were in fact forged to the Washington Post. Wilson's report to the CIA was given a grade of "good," in terms of its usefulness as intelligence.

The CIA and other intelligence agencies have not, to date, revealed any information regarding their "other sources" for the claim that Iraq attempted to procure uranium from Niger, although George Tenet and Condoleeza Rice have both claimed that had they known Bush was going to include mention of the Niger/Iraq connection in his State of the Union address, and had knowledge of Wilson's report, they would have asked that Bush not include the line in the speech.

The only conclusions on point which the report makes are that the CIA was at fault for not bringing Wilson's report to the attention of the Vice President.

Wilson's statements to the Committee, as opposed to his report, were criticized as differing from some conclusions he drew in his report. In his statement, he claimed that he knew the documents were forged when, according to the CIA, he would have had no way of knowing this, because he hadn't seen the documents. (The author of the article in the National Review conveniently doesn't make this distinction.) Either way, though, he was sent to Niger on the basis of these documents to investigate their credibility, and his report concluded that there was no evidence suggesting that they were, in fact credible. He did his job, and the CIA recognized that, yet failed to pass on his findings to the VP.

The "other sources" of information the CIA claims to have regarding Iraqi/Nigerien uranium sales have not been released or described, and were not the basis for Wilson's trip to Niger.


-koji K.



[edit on 16-7-2005 by koji_K]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
FlyersFan,

Isn't it amazing how fast the liberal left drops their civil rights rhetoric and the rule of law to turn into an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches when the target is a conservative?

Sure is amazing.

Though I'm sure you would never act like that just because of politics.

I'm sure that if it was Howard Dean who leaked it, you'd be defending him and saying, "Well, it's not like leaking CIA agent names to the media is a crime. . . ".

If it's not a big deal, and no laws have been broken, then tell me why we have an active investigation for the past two years.


It's your opinion that no law was broken, and Hannity's, and others.

The Fact is, your opinion means squat to the DOJ. If they say a law was broken then it was.

It's truly remarkable to read all this mindless drivel in support of the most corrupt
administration this country has ever known.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and Co. should be impeached and then stripped of every single
asset they hold and then spend the rest of their lives rotting in prison for what they have done.

You can defend your fearless leader all you want, but doing so simply tells everyone else what a fool you are.

Karl Rove signed a non-discloser agreement when he took office. Well he broke that agreement. you can read the disclosure agreement your self from the link below.
it is in Pdf format

Karl Rove's Nondisclosure Agreement

By: Rep. Waxman
Published: July 15, 2005 at 11:30

Snip~~

A fact sheet released today by Rep. Waxman explains that the nondisclosure agreement signed by Karl Rove prohibited Mr. Rove from confirming the identity of covert CIA agent Valerie Wilson to reporters. Under the nondisclosure agreement and the applicable executive order, even "negligent" disclosures to reporters are grounds for revocation of a security clearance or dismissal.

Karl Rove's Nondisclosure Agreement Today, news reports revealed that Karl Rove, the White House Deputy Chief of Staff and the President's top political advisor, confirmed the identity of covert CIA official Valerie Plame Wilson with Robert Novak on July 8, 2003, six days before Mr. Novak published the information in a nationally syndicated column.

These new disclosures have obvious relevance to the criminal investigation of Patrick Fitzgerald, the Special Counsel who is investigating whether Mr. Rove violated a criminal statute by revealing Ms. Wilson's identity as a covert CIA official.

Independent of the relevance these new disclosures have to Mr. Fitzgerald's investigation, they also have significant implications for: (1) whether Mr. Rove violated his obligations under his "Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement" and (2) whether the White House violated its obligations under Executive Order 12958. Under the nondisclosure agreement and the executive order, Mr. Rove would be subject to the loss of his security clearance or dismissal even for "negligently" disclosing Ms. Wilson's identity.

THE PROHIBITION AGAINST "CONFIRMING" CLASSIFIED INFORMATION

Mr. Rove, through his attorney, has raised the implication that there is a distinction between releasing classified information to someone not authorized to receive it and confirming classified information from someone not authorized to have it. In fact, there is no such distinction under the nondisclosure agreement Mr. Rove signed.

THE INDEPENDENT DUTY TO VERIFY THE CLASSIFIED STATUS OF INFORMATION

Mr. Rove was not at liberty to repeat classified information he may have learned from a reporter. Instead, he had an affirmative obligation to determine whether the information had been declassified before repeating it. The briefing booklet is explicit on this point: "before disseminating the information elsewhere ... the signer of the SF 312 must confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified."5

Link

Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement," also known as a SF-312 Pdf Format

1 Executive Order No. 12958, Classified National Security Information (as amended), sec. 4.1(a) (Mar. 28, 2003)

2 Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement, Standard Form 312 (Prescribed by NARA/ISOO) (32 C.F.R. 2003, E.O. 12958)

5 Briefing Booklet, supra note 3, at 73.






[edit on 16/7/2005 by Sauron]

If I were a republican, the only thing I would fear right now is Patrick Fitzgerald. There is nothing holding this guy back from getting to the bottom of this case. We now have a journalist (if you wish to call her that) behind bars, Fitzgerald seems relentless for some answers. The judge even recognizes that this case goes beyond 1st amendment rights, I wouldn't be surprised if Fitzgerald continues to go after Judith Miller even harder for criminal contempt charges. Here is what the judge in Judy Miller's case has stated about the seriousness of this matter:

(pgs 28-29)
"Applying this standard to the facts of this case, and
considering first only the public record, I have no doubt that the
leak at issue was a serious matter. Authorized “to investigate
and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to
the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as
federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to
interfere with, investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of
justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses,”

I think a lot of people are getting too excited about Rove going down, we don't know what's going to happen legally. It's all mere speculation. Now that I've said that, I do agree with the democrats (and the press) for calling out the WH for stonewalling on this case. It has been dragging for more than 2 years, and I don't believe for a second that GWB wants to get to the bottom of this like he claims. Why didn't Karl Rove simply come forward before and state his conversations with the reporters? The fact that he didn't makes it even more suspicious. As for Rove hearing about Plame from some journalist...that's just laughable. If that's the case, there is still no excuse for his carelessness with potentionally classified information. ("I heard that too", "It was Wilson's wife...").

In my opinion the political damage has already happened, the Bush administration has a lot of explaining to do and the GOP has begun their spin. Not to mention the attempt to assassinate the character of Joe Wilson and his wife. The democrats have made their statement about Rove, it's obvious that Bush is not going to take any action unless there are some sort of indictments made. This could be the right decision or could end up slapping him in the face. Let's be realistic, it's not like Bush was all that surprised when the Newsweek article came out claiming Rove to be Matt Cooper's leak. Instead of focusing all our attention on attacking Rove, let's not forget the real issues at hand here:

Wilson's wife was outed because he had given crucial evidence that contradicted the White House's regarding going to war with Iraq.

This is huge and it ties in with the Downing Street Memos ("fixing the facts"). This is what jumps out to people and indicates the possible corruptness of the current administration. Most of us know that there has been an agenda (see PNAC) to take Saddam out of power years prior to 911. If only we listened to more people like Wilson maybe we wouldn't be in this predicament in Iraq (the soveriegn nation that had nothing to do with 911 and possessed no WMDs). Instead we could be working on building our homeland security as well as hunting for the terrorist organizations responsible. It seems like there is an ongoing cover up occuring in the WH if you ask me. It's obvious that the current administration was going to go to war with Iraq no matter what. Screw any facts that might get in the way! Once again, this is pure speculation on my part

Keep in mind that Fitzgerald may not have enough evidence to indict anyone. I hope this doesn't happen, but it's indeed possible. Many federal investigations come up empty-handed.

I have a feeling tomorrow in Matt Cooper's CNN interview, he will be covering for Rove. It doesn't matter, Fitzgerald is out for blood and his target(s) is most likely someone in or connected to the White House. As far as we know, Rove is still a subject and not a target in this case as Fitzgerald has not speculated otherwise. Neither side knows for sure what is going to happen. Who knows who the real target(s) is?. It could be anyone from Bush on down to Ari Fleischer. It could even be found out that no one is at fault because everyone in DC knew that Wilson's wife was a CIA operative, ha!

I don't blame democrats one bit for wanting to get to the bottom of this and I know for a fact that if the roles were reversed, and Rove was a democrat, republicans would be just as aggressive, if more so, in pursuing this matter. This is to be taken seriously, it's an outright abuse of power and this current administration has had it's fill.

Please read this to learn more about Valerie PlameFormer CIA retirees: Can We Trust Our President?

I admit, I can't stand Karl Rove, I think he is a slimeball but that doesn't matter. As much as I would like to see him take the fall, it's foolish to get too wrapped up in the idea that he may be indicted for anything. No one knows all the evidence that has been shown to the grand jury, nor do we have knowlege of all the testimonies that have been made. No one can figure out who or what Fitzgerald is even aiming for. Whatever happens, I am confident that Fitzgerald is doing his best to make sure all his i's are dotted and all his t's are crossed.

It's going to be an interesting summer in D.C. with this going on as well as Supreme Court nominations. The media seems to be all over this story, and to Scott McClellen's chagrin the WH press corp. has finally woken up from their coma. If possible, I hope the media focuses on the facts and steers away from the spin that's incoming from both sides of the political spectrum. In other words, I hope they do their jobs!

[edit on 7/17/2005 by Lecky]

Edit: Sorry.. mods feel free to delete this post.

-koji K.

[edit on 16-7-2005 by koji_K]

You have voted Lecky for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Good post Lecky, very well put

We keep hearing that Rove is not the primary target of this investigation.

Let us assume for a moment that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were all in on this.

We also have a reporter STILL refusing to disclose her source.

So who is she protecting?


Or am I just full of carp?

Well done Lecky! I have nothing but contempt for Karl Rove and this administration, but, as of now, I just don't see any evidence of Rove's involvement in the outing of Plame. However, what I do see is Novak printing the name of a CIA agent in an article, lets take Bob and give him the Judith Miller treatment and see what he says. I bet Bob would sing like a bird if faced with a little jail time. Lets shake the tree and see what falls out!

Speaking of bigger fish

You may want to read what Larry Johnson has to say.

Whatever happened to the Texas cowboy who would fight to defend the honor of a woman being attacked by bullies? Whatever happened to the Commander-in-Chief responsible for protecting the lives of CIA officers? George Bush, unfortunately is missing in action. He is standing idly by while a legion of Republican operatives fan out on the airwaves in an unrelenting assault on the character and reputation of Valerie Wilson, a CIA intelligence officer. Valerie, who is still a full time employee of the CIA, is not allowed to defend herself against this attack.
At the heart of the matter is the specious claim that she dispatched her husband on the mission to Niger to find out if Iraq was buying uranium. This is the big lie. Didn't happen and here's why:

noquarter.typepad.com...

When Clueless is simply.....clueless.

The alleged rat who outed Plame was none other than David Corn.
A White House Smear
Who Exposed Secret Agent Plame?





seekerof

Originally posted by djohnsto77
FlyersFan,

Isn't it amazing how fast the liberal left drops their civil rights rhetoric and the rule of law to turn into an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches when the target is a conservative?

They want the terrorists in Guantanamo to get jury trials in the U.S. while they want Rove to be tossed out and thrown in jail without a trial and without a legal reason to do it.

[edit on 7/16/2005 by djohnsto77]

Yes!!

You have voted djohnsto77 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Speaking of clueless,

We should keep in mind that the Bush administration was delusional thinking that
this was going to be a quick and dirty little war.

Flowers for the troops and all.

They weren't about to let something like world opinion or ethics stop them.

hahaha... some of the people here are really funny... 2 years there's an ongoing investigation and djhonsto77 and his like think there is nothing to investigate...

I would sell my soul to see just one of these people live among common iraqi's, afghani's, pakistani's, palestineans for a month... scratch that, for a week even...

While iraqi press is shut down, iraqi students are harrassed for their political views, iraqi bloggers are arrested for their web postings, iraqi journalists are deliberately shot at, djhonsto77, seekerof and the like spend their time convincing everyone that bush co. acted for the best and that the democracy in iraq is going pretty well and yada yada yada...

What is the world coming to? no compassion from either side... just blind dogmatic hatred and loyalty at the expense of innocents...

oh and djonsto77 should have the following as his message :
"life, liberty and pursuit of those who support it"

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Hashbaby]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Clifford May from The National Review now says that in fact it was Joe Wilson through David Corn of the liberal rag The Nation who really leaked the confidential information concerning Plame:

www.nationalreview.com...

Ignoring the complete right wing bias of the National Review, this author is demonstrating a complete ignorance of how the CIA works as explained by a CIA Agent to Newsweek Columnist Jonathan Alter:

The frantic efforts of the GOP attack machine to change the subject to Wilson shows how scared Republicans are that the master of their universe will be held accountable for Rove's destructive carelessness.

To get an idea of how destructive, I talked to Melissa Mahle, a former CIA covert operative turned author whose career parallels Plame's. She explained what happens when someone's cover is blown. It isn't pretty, especially when, like Plame, you have been under "nonofficial cover" (working for a phony front company or nonprofit), which is more sensitive than "official cover" (pretending to work for another government agency). The GOP's spinners are making it seem that because Plame had a desk job in Langley at the time she was outed, she wasn't truly undercover. As Mahle says, that reflects a total ignorance about the way the CIA works. Being outed doesn't just waste millions of taxpayer dollars; it compromises hundreds of other people in the field you may have worked with in the past. - source

The GOP can try to spin this all day but Rove went to far in his efforts to hurt a critic of the Bush Administration, as Rove admitted to reporter Matt Cooper when he revealed to him that Plame was a CIA Agent, Rove "...said too much." Yes you did Mr. Rove and you risked national security in the process. - source

Who does the Journalists get the information in the first place? There must be someone on the inside cause journalists don't know about the names of CIA agents.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by ulshadow]

Yeah I guess Rove gave the information to the journalists, and they repeated it back to him. So the spin is he was told by journalists.

This is all beyond rediculous. DENY IGNORANCE, don't hide behind your party loyalty. There's a time for being Partisan and there's a time to stand behind your country. You know I never heard about the "evil Liberal media" when Clinton was in office, it's just Republicans way of justifying reporters telling the American public all the crap this administration has done, and getting mad that someone has the BALLS (FINALLY) to stick up for wrong doing by this administration. I think the whole "evil Liberal media" idea is CRAP. I dont' think the media does their job enough half the time. They sit around and cover for the White House, and fed us half truths like on 9/11.

And I'm not a Democrat, I think both parties are full of crap. I only care about what's WRONG and what's RIGHT, something some of you seem to forget should be more important than your PARTY AFFILIATION.





[edit on 17-7-2005 by NoJustice]

I will probably be worm fodder long before we see and end to corruption in our government.

People are so self involved that most don't even bother to make a serious effort to choose
and elect their local and state officials.
This is exactly why those who have something to gain put their money into a candidate
that will return the favor.

There will never be an end to the two party system if people do not make the effort to
vote for a worthy candidate.

Many people who prefer middle ground and reason voted democratic, not because they thought
Kerry was the right choice, but did so ONLY because
they wanted Bush out of the White House.

I want to see Bush Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and Co removed from office because they are CROOKS
Their party affiliation doesn't mean diddly squat.