Scientology a Cult?

i do not know how many countries actually consider scientology as a religion (i only know about te US) but it is definitely considered as a cult by most (if not all but has to be verified) states in Europe

France

the french state had a huge court case with the church of scientology but strangely all files and evidence have turned into thin air which led to even more investigations

Germany

living in one of the worlds best known fiscal paradises (the grand-Duchy of luxembourg) there's has been quite a few enquiries going on about money laundring linked to cults in general and the name of scientology has been appearing a few times . (but never the vatican )
but then again what is a religion if not a succesful cult , wasn't the christian church a jewish cult until the 2nd or 3rd century ,
i believe it is more about the "goals" ,"intentions"and actions of an organisation in this case , more than just a matter of the number of followers involved in it.

but i must say that the idea of spending horrendous ammounts of money to get closer to "enlightment" is not something that i am considering doing at any point in my life

Originally posted by Hvitserkbut i must say that the idea of spending horrendous ammounts of money to get closer to "enlightment" is not something that i am considering doing at any point in my life

My sentiments exactly. Which is why I choose to practice Scientology outside the Church structure.

Haven't spent a dime so far (other than on some cheap used books).

Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye

Originally posted by Hvitserkbut i must say that the idea of spending horrendous ammounts of money to get closer to "enlightment" is not something that i am considering doing at any point in my life

My sentiments exactly. Which is why I choose to practice Scientology outside the Church structure.

Haven't spent a dime so far (other than on some cheap used books).

I agree completely....

For 10 extra points (like I actually have the power to give them, NOT) can you identify what other organization uses your signature quote (Azeari of the Radiant Eye) as a standard catch phrase?

Do you guys work for free at your jobs? No, neither do Scientologists. It is only fair that you give something in return for services. How else will these folks survive? Get real.

Troy

Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
As for xenu & clams & all that: well, I honestly don't know where it all came from. I've never encountered such things and have never heard any Scientologists discussing them. Perhaps it's from some obscure Hubbard lecture, taken out of context. Or maybe some people do "recall" such incidents, but there could be other explanations for that, and in any case these concepts aren't part of Scientology's core beliefs.

Do you really believe that? While it may very well be that the story surrounding Xenu is not, and never was, a big part of the beliefs of the Church of Scientology, it is pretty clearly documented as actually being a part of CoS doctrine, as revealed in OT III. It's certainly far more than something "taken out of context" from an "obscure Hubbard lecture."

There were several court cases where the CoS brought actions against parties who were disseminating information about Xenu which they claimed was copyrighted. In addition, a while back if you tried to get to certain Xenu-related anti-CoS sites through Google, a page came up saying that the CoS were threatening action against Google if it linked to those pages, citing copyright issues--and as was their right, Google linked to the sites (in the explanation for not having the links up on the results page), thereby revealing which pages had information on them that was in fact copyrighted by the CoS.

While Wikipedia is certainly not the best place for information on any subject, the page here begins to outline the issues about copyright.

I'm not trying to speak for Scott but perhaps the reason he is unfamiliar with Xenu is simply because he has not reached OT level yet? To Scientologists it is very important to go through this in order, and they don't read ahead.

It is not in the lessons/excercises that are done by the pre-Clear, which I believe he is.

These claims of "Xenu" are no more than black propaganda. I have conversed with many Scientologists that have all reached the level of Clear and they had explained to me that this was nothing more than a farcical fabrication.

Absolutely without a doubt an all-american cult.

You can spot it three pages into Dianetics: New made-up words to replace old words leading to group-centric speak that is used in group discussion and really just serves to begin the brainwashing which seems to usually include this basic component of thought-reform.

Originally posted by Majestic12
These claims of "Xenu" are no more than black propaganda. I have conversed with many Scientologists that have all reached the level of Clear and they had explained to me that this was nothing more than a farcical fabrication.

The Xenu stuff isn't revealed until OT III, which is a higher level than "clear". What isn't "clear" is if L. Ron Hubbard meant the story to be taken literally or figuratively. Several former Scientologists I've spoken with confirm the existence of a document which says that the OT III tech requires the "patient" to take the story literally for the work to have any effect on that level, but it is possible, I suppose, that at a higher level, this is revealed as allegorical.

Nevertheless, in LRH's letters and diaries, there is enough to indicate his obsession with "exorcising" his so-called "body thetans", and the Xenu story indicates the origins of the BT's. The Xenu story, which in Scientology talk is called "Incident II", forms the very basis of NOTs (New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans). Even the cover of the book "Dianetics", which shows a volcanic explosion, refers to Incident II, where Xenu detonated atomic bombs in the volcanoes.

book I highly recommend for spotting cults and various modes of suspiciousness in general.

I recently finished reading a great book about cults in general and their methods of recruitment and characteristics of behavior. It was a quick read for me as a layman but all the content is fascinating and not dumbed-down. No one group is singled out but they are used as examples. Should be easy to find through a library or bookstore. Very interesting book.

Also, this book or similar should be required high school reading right along with "1984", "Future Shock" series, etc. Pertinent to the media, propaganda, advertising, etc.:

Cults In Our Midst
The Hidden Menace In Our Everyday Lives

by Margaret Thaler Singer
with Janja Lalich

ISBN: 0-7879-0051-6

Singer (deceased): Ph.D clinical psychologist and emeritus adjunct professor at U of C, Berkely. Counseled/interviewed 3000 members/ex-members and families. Post traumatic stress expert also.

Lalich: Former cult member. Now writer, consultant, and cult information specialist. Co-author of "Captive Hearts, Captive Minds".

Major section titles : Defining Cults; A Brief History of Cults, The Process of Brainwashing, Psychological Coercion, and Thought Reform; What's Wrong with Cults, Recruiting New Members; Physiological Persuasion Techniques; Intruding into the Workplace; The Threat of Intimidation; Rescuing the Children; Leaving the Cult; Recovery: Coming Out of the Pseudopersonality; resources, futher reading, index, etc.

BTW: Tony Robbins scares the hell out of me. I remember a "60 Minutes"-type segment about two college guys who practically worshipped him. They were scary too.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Hubbard's use of redundacy is not "brainwashing", it was merely an attempt to make is sound more eloquant. I read Dianetics from cover to cover and I didn't feel brainwashed at all, in fact I called the mission of Scientology and canceled my appointment for evaluation because I couldn't understand what the hell he was talking about.

And to Masonic Light, I didn't know that. The way my Scientologist friends were making it sound is that the Xenu didn't exist period.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by Majestic12]

Originally posted by Majestic12


And to Masonic Light, I didn't know that. The way my Scientologist friends were making it sound is that the Xenu didn't exist period.

There are also several pro-Scientology websites that confirm the Incident II tech, although they downplay its importance. They claim that, although this is a Scientology teaching, it isn't as important as the anti-Scientologists pretend it to be.

In my opinion, Hubbard was here influenced by Jack Parson, a student of Aleister Crowley. In Crowley's system, the student of lower grades would learn to evoke demons, for the purpose of then banishing them. In the higher grades, the student would then learn that the so-called "demons" were not external entities, but were instead negative influences that exist within his own psyche, which were then personified, externalized, and destroyed through the yogic method used in the Crowleyan system of ceremonial magic. It is possible that the Scientologists use the Xenu story in the same way that the ceremonial magicians use the stories about demons, at least if the "body thetans" and "demons" are the same thing. The beginning student considers them "real" so he can get rid of them; after he's more experienced, he comes to learn that these things, which he originally perceived of as evil, are really parts of himself.

Of course, this is only conjecture. Hubbard may really have believed in Xenu, or perhaps just used it as a scam.

It is a cult simply for the reason that it is a "puzzle" and a glue up of many older religions. The guy just picked and choose what he liked got them all together and called himself the "creator" of it.

I have consulted with auditors over the telephone and they had sounded just and gentle with their words. They weren't pressing me for cash or asking me when I could come in and pay for lessons, they merely gave me effective insight.

I wouldn't call Scientology a cult, just a misunderstood Neo-Religion.

Originally posted by Majestic12
I have consulted with auditors over the telephone and they had sounded just and gentle with their words. They weren't pressing me for cash or asking me when I could come in and pay for lessons, they merely gave me effective insight.

I wouldn't call Scientology a cult, just a misunderstood Neo-Religion.

Cults don't press you for cash. Nobody would join a pushy group. This isn't often discussed much. Everyone from homeless people to law students to engineers to businessmen (many training courses are cult fronts for recruiting) or wealthy sports figures or celebrities end up in cults. Not because they are stupid people but because they ARE people. Cults look for people in times when they are lonely, depressed, confused, alone, in a new town or city, grieving, etc. DOn't forget this emotional and phychological component. Barriers aren't always stone and barbed wire. Of course, "I would never fall for that or join a cult or hand over my money." Most wouldn't but Cults in general practice and innovate the absolutely most developed techniques of recruitment and mind control. They improvise for the situation and for the times.

They offer promises of peace and peace of mind. No one walks up to you and says "Would you like to join my cult and wear nike shoes and kill yourself as a comet passes the earth. It happens slowly as you grow dependent upon the group and are distanced from non-members. WIthout outside and objective or at least critical evalutation of the groups' activities, your sense of reality and morality and what is normal changes. "Peer pressure" is often nearly subliminal. A food for thought, if you attend a lecture and hand raising is used for questions, what do you do? Of course you do the same. IF lines form, you'll do that. Harmless yes, but this is the idea behind "peer pressure". It's not always a bunch of high school kids trying to get someone to have a puff of pot. It's not that simple.

Cult recruiters, the people you talk to in the beginning, are trained in these various methods and I'm not talking about any specific group here. Some groups seek out exchange students on campuses, or students who see therapists, or look for singles at bus-depots. In essance they are like pimps. They are trained to pick up on your likes or dislikes via conversation and visual cues in the way that many "psychics" do on tv. Then they establish a trust and bond or commonality, often using little hypnotic tricks and so forth and conversation. You'll be invited to dinner or group outing. Often they "love-bomb" people with lots of acceptance and unconditional support. At this stage it is all salesmanship. Members themselves sometimes don't even know what they are doing because they've been it long enough. They feel they are "saving" you or helping the cause, etc.

SImply, just because a group doesn't do ONE thing that cults may do, does NOT mean that the group is not a cult. Lots of mammals don't look alike, but they are still mammals. DId the scientologists talk about the more "out there" ideas that they have? Most likely no. That comes later.

If you're interested, I really recommend the book I listed earlier. It's excellent in that not just "cults" use these methods. Politicians, musicians, preachers, etc. do as well. It can't hurt learning about tried and true methods that we are bombarded with in daily life.

Just to add, I am suspicious of "religions" that hide details until you are in. In can mean that you've committed to a trip or function, invested time in the group, or made friendships. Friendships cause the evalutation to change. How can this be all bad? if I've met friends and they seem pretty normal and at ease? (One question that is possible.) Religions with LEVELS of knowledge and so forth probably aren't a good idea. YOu have to ask yourself why. Are they possibly warming the bathwater up around you with intentions of bringing it to a boil? Are they draining the pool so that the walls are too high so see over? As you gain more and more friends in the groups, who will you call on when you need a ride to the hospital or help with moving, etc.? The cult becomes your support group in sneaky ways.

Also, different forms of "brainwashing' don't work in all instances for everyone. Reading propaganda or literature from a group isn't brainwashing on its own. Brainwaishing is an evolving web with variables and components. MORE IMPORTANTLY, by definition, brainwashing takes place without your KNOWING about it.

When DON'T know that you are being "brainwashed", THAT IS PRECISELY WHEN YOU ARE BEING BRAINWASHED. This is why it is important to learn the techniques that cults or groups use. Otherwise we are potentially setting ourselves up blindly. Common sense alone isn't enough. Smart people can just as easily wind up in cults. This is a fascinating but scary thing.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

Originally posted by Majestic12
I have consulted with auditors over the telephone and they had sounded just and gentle with their words. They weren't pressing me for cash or asking me when I could come in and pay for lessons, they merely gave me effective insight.

I wouldn't call Scientology a cult, just a misunderstood Neo-Religion.

Cults don't press you for cash. Nobody would join a pushy group. This isn't often discussed much. Everyone from homeless people to law students to engineers to businessmen (many training courses are cult fronts for recruiting) or wealthy sports figures or celebrities end up in cults. Not because they are stupid people but because they ARE people. Cults look for people in times when they are lonely, depressed, confused, alone, in a new town or city, grieving, etc. DOn't forget this emotional and phychological component. Barriers aren't always stone and barbed wire. Of course, "I would never fall for that or join a cult or hand over my money." Most wouldn't but Cults in general practice and innovate the absolutely most developed techniques of recruitment and mind control. They improvise for the situation and for the times.

They offer promises of peace and peace of mind. No one walks up to you and says "Would you like to join my cult and wear nike shoes and kill yourself as a comet passes the earth. It happens slowly as you grow dependent upon the group and are distanced from non-members. WIthout outside and objective or at least critical evalutation of the groups' activities, your sense of reality and morality and what is normal changes. "Peer pressure" is often nearly subliminal. A food for thought, if you attend a lecture and hand raising is used for questions, what do you do? Of course you do the same. IF lines form, you'll do that. Harmless yes, but this is the idea behind "peer pressure". It's not always a bunch of high school kids trying to get someone to have a puff of pot. It's not that simple.

Cult recruiters, the people you talk to in the beginning, are trained in these various methods and I'm not talking about any specific group here. Some groups seek out exchange students on campuses, or students who see therapists, or look for singles at bus-depots. In essance they are like pimps. They are trained to pick up on your likes or dislikes via conversation and visual cues in the way that many "psychics" do on tv. Then they establish a trust and bond or commonality, often using little hypnotic tricks and so forth and conversation. You'll be invited to dinner or group outing. Often they "love-bomb" people with lots of acceptance and unconditional support. At this stage it is all salesmanship. Members themselves sometimes don't even know what they are doing because they've been it long enough. They feel they are "saving" you or helping the cause, etc.

SImply, just because a group doesn't do ONE thing that cults may do, does NOT mean that the group is not a cult. Lots of mammals don't look alike, but they are still mammals. DId the scientologists talk about the more "out there" ideas that they have? Most likely no. That comes later.

If you're interested, I really recommend the book I listed earlier. It's excellent in that not just "cults" use these methods. Politicians, musicians, preachers, etc. do as well. It can't hurt learning about tried and true methods that we are bombarded with in daily life.

Just to add, I am suspicious of "religions" that hide details until you are in. In can mean that you've committed to a trip or function, invested time in the group, or made friendships. Friendships cause the evalutation to change. How can this be all bad? if I've met friends and they seem pretty normal and at ease? (One question that is possible.) Religions with LEVELS of knowledge and so forth probably aren't a good idea. YOu have to ask yourself why. Are they possibly warming the bathwater up around you with intentions of bringing it to a boil? Are they draining the pool so that the walls are too high so see over? As you gain more and more friends in the groups, who will you call on when you need a ride to the hospital or help with moving, etc.? The cult becomes your support group in sneaky ways.

Also, different forms of "brainwashing' don't work in all instances for everyone. Reading propaganda or literature from a group isn't brainwashing on its own. Brainwaishing is an evolving web with variables and components. MORE IMPORTANTLY, by definition, brainwashing takes place without your KNOWING about it.

When DON'T know that you are being "brainwashed", THAT IS PRECISELY WHEN YOU ARE BEING BRAINWASHED. This is why it is important to learn the techniques that cults or groups use. Otherwise we are potentially setting ourselves up blindly. Common sense alone isn't enough. Smart people can just as easily wind up in cults. This is a fascinating but scary thing.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

I see where you are comming from.

Now that you mention it, I was a little suspicious of the guy I was talking to. It was blatant how his voice seemed to raise in almost excitement when I said I was having conflicts in choosing a faith. He was unusually pleasant in his voice, making small talk here and there and asking me about school and such. During the conversation I was quite comfortable talking to the guy, for some reason I felt as if I could tell this man, that I hardly know my entire life story. I asked about the Sea Organization, what was the level of "Clear" and things like that. He must've asked more 4-6 times in the 35 minute conversation when I would be comming for evaluation. I have gotten all sorts of mockeries and ridicules by my family and friends saying that I was going to join a cult and a doomsday organisation, at first I was sure it was just spite and dislike toward a new religion, but now that you have mentioned a few "cult-like" methods I am starting to wonder.

As far as being suspicious of organisations that obscure deteails until you are initiated I am not sure. Maybe they do not wish to have all of their teachings spilled to the public?

I'll be sure to check out that book, thanks Second Hand.

the actual site that had this information is now gone, but there used to be a site where you could download a whole book on scientology, all the ot levels, and a more comprehensive history. i think if you ask around about it on alt.scientology or something else someone should have it. but in the bio of hubbard there were several references to his worship of crowley and the so-called black arts.

its funny... a man that created a religion that is against rx drugs, found dead with about 3 million different substances in his bloodstream.

I think I know what volume you are talking about. That book was supposedly leaked circa the 1970s-80s and mass published.

[the longest post I've ever posted]

Majestic12 - I'm glad to hear that the book could be useful to you. Especially if you are looking into various groups. All groups use some techniques either "by accident", as some are completely normal things that we as people do...like being kind to newcomers or others in need...but some groups have agendas.

[Real quick about the "secret levels" and such: Your question made me think. To be clearer, I'm more suspicious of the general secrecy. Secrecy isn't bad or negative on its own. I guess I mean that these groups COULD be keeping requirements and group "laws" from you. So, I could join a cult thinking that it is going to be what THEY tell me but slowly it turns into something that I never agreed to in the beginning. LIke the guy you talked to on the phone, you wouldn't get straight answers about what the group believes behind "closed doors". Without telling you what you as an individual are curious about, instead the guy wants a commitment from you to meet with a member.]

For example, AA isn't a cult even though the group may share SOME similarities, but of very different levels from a cult.

People are kind and helpful to newcomers in AA but don't promise any easy solutions and are straight up that meetings won't get you to where you want to be...it helps though. Cults promise great things early on either specifically or through their actions (smiles, affection, etc). There is no agenda other than getting sober and everyone knows that going in. People who attend meetings on a regular basis aren't coached in how to manipulate others or pretend to be interested in them as individuals when they are not. All locations from town to town let various members open the meeting with announcements and so forth and then the whole thing is turned over to the other people there that day, people from out of town, the first time, people curious about alcoholism and so forth.

Family members are welcome to attend, etc. It is social in nature and encourages broadening horizons. By comparison, cults do the opposite. They don't encourage broadening any more than what they believe in. It's all about increasing your knowledge of the group's interests and excluding those that do not.

Exercise isn't usually encouraged either (except in some "athletic" cults that use sports as a type of gimmick to get members). AA encourages exercise, identifying with a philosophy or religion of your own to be as private as you wish, getting involved with non-AA social groups, connecting with family members, and importantly healthy compromise instead of avoidable and negative disagreements are applauded.

The book has a great section on why the Marines aren't a cult even though they may share some similarities.

www.csj.org... has the information online in the RESOURCES section (scroll down a bit).

People can be very charming and we all can be "charmed" by them at different times. Salesman, gold-diggers, job recruiters, popular peers, etc and it isn't always negative - but it can be "used for evil".

It's interesting about your phone calls. Voice techniques have very real effects on us - the volume we speak in, word choices, patterns like alliteration, "calm" speaking, even accents can play a role, etc. These things also aren't bad on their own, for example to make a presentation or performance interesting for an audience or class, used by someone helping in a time of need to comfort. But if it is done to get you to "join" and for no other purpose other than a deceitful action, that's of course different.

It also is possible that the enthusiasm that you heard from the other end of the phone could have been a way of connecting with you on an interest (your curiosity) and then channeling that into you setting up a meeting. If you had mentioned you were into astronomy, enthusiasm for that would have been most likely channeled the same way to set up a meeting.

And if you are a younger person in college or of that age group, this is the highest desirable group for some cults. Potentially younger people may not be as world-savy as they are less likely to have "been around the block" and could be members for a longer time. The representatives of cults are often young and attractive and seemingly happy people that are likeable. Some cults want young members to pop out children as often as possible.

It's good you have a family you can joke with and it seems they are looking out for you in general. ATS doesn't hurt either for getting different ideas.

ADDED: The link I posted above also has many articles on the author of "Cults in Our Midst" as she died in 2003. The second article has a funny story about a cult member and the 80 year old woman's retaliation.

[edit on 27-9-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

TI can see from these posts that there is some serious misunderstanding, bad information sources, etc. going on. The best way to get the knowlege of Scientology is to read a real Scientology book, listen to a Scientology tape, etc. The thing about the net, you don't know if the information is reliable or even true for that matter. And the information on the net can be altered from its original form.

And if you are having trouble understanding the texts, then be sure to look at the note in the front of the book, about looking up the words you don't understand. Don't worry, it doesn't make you less of a person or a nerd, if you need to use a dictionary, it is actually a very wise thing to do. I come accross words like this all the time. So, please don't take my comments as an insult. Looking up words is a powerful tool. It really helps open up your understanding in all areas of life. This is one of the reasons why some people come out of school as illiterates, they weren't taught to use a dictionary to any great degree.


Much love,
Troy


[edit on 1-10-2005 by cybertroy]