Masons design the streets of ...

www.pagrandlodge.org...

Explanation of the Lafayette Apron presented to George Washington by Marquis de Lafayette in August of 1784.

It has a star which also happens to have five points and is also a pentagram.

This is roughly six and one-half years before any design of Washington DC.

Another bit of information I found by investigating an "INCORRECT PATH".



[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
It's a gibe at your self-proclaimed apprarently infallible and complete expertise with which you are able to save me time and energy by pointing out an "incorrect path". But, whatever...I'll continue investigating various paths no matter how "incorrect" you or others may believe them to be.

Whatever you say dude, i never claimed an infallible expertise. All I said was that I know enough about masonic symbolism to know that the pentagram is NOT, nor has it ever been, a prominent masonic symbol.

"my proof is in the LACK OF EVIDENCE available..."

That's some statement...I don't think I even want to touch that one at all.

What's wrong with this statement? If you cannot find anything to show that the pentagram was used as a masonic symbol, then it stands to reason that the lack of evidence points to the opposite conclusion. If we had something showing that the pentagram WAS used as a masonic symbol, then the theory now becomes valid. But up until now, there have nothing to validate this theory.

sebatwerk
I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Mark Master Royal Arch (York Rite) Mason.

That sounds pretty good. Do most apprentices rise so quickly after "several years" of study? Why do you need to "keep studying"? Is there more to learn? Meaning that your professed knowledge might not be so complete after all?

Many do, others don't. You get back what you put in to Freemasonry. I have been a very active mason and have been rewarded for it... not by the fraternity, but I have been rewarded personally and spiritually.

I need to keep studying because I want to keep learning and growing as a mason and as a person. I study the rituals, the symbols, the phylosophy and principles behind the teachings of Freemasonry. Freemasonry is a school, and we are the students. No mason EVER stops learning, the subject of life is too broad of a subject to ever know everything. This is why I will keep studying and striving to "know myself".

Perhaps you may yet learn of paths that seem "incorrect" now but aren't so incorrect after all? Is this even a possibility that you are willing to accept as useful in a discussion?

Look, you and I are not discussing philosophy. We are discussing the historical use of a symbol by a fraternity! It's a pretty cut-and-dry subject, there's not much grey area to speak of. But aside from that subject, yes; I will learn MANY new things from here until the day I die. I'm sure that my views will change many times from now to the time I stop studying, learning and growing.

How many more years will it take until you can stop studying? Several? 30? When, with all doors having been opened and all corners bathed in light, will you know it all?

Does ANYONE ever know it all?

Back to the topic of Freemasonry, it depends on what you are talking about: knowledge of the fraternity, or knowledge of its principles and philosophies?

As things are revealed, does the amount of concealed information diminish? How do you know?

None of the philosophies or principles of Freemasonry are concealed. They are available for ANYONE to study and learn from. The teachings of Freemasonry are never concealed from anyone, they just remain to be found. This is why masons always say that they are in search of "more light".

I was looking at the streets of Paris on google earth yesterday and there is a lot of symbolic looking designs there. I wonder if masons were behind the design there too.

Geez sebatwerk,

First you say the pentagram has no significance at all...(a geometric pattern with five points and also a star...yeah...nothing a mason could possibly like about that right?)

Then you say it has no significance before 1890...

Then you say it had no prominent significance...

You also claim to know everything there is about symbology because you can without hesitation label a path of research as "incorrect"...

Then you DO NOT comment on an actual piece of information that at least addresses one of the above four assertions.

www.pagrandlodge.org...

First you say you'll study masonry until the day you die...

Then you say you'll study it until you stop, admitting that it's possible you might choose to do so before expiring...

You say you will always continue learning, which logically means that you don't know everything...except apparently the "incorrect" paths...

SO...in closing...because it wasn't all that hard to find a significant use of a pentagram prior to the L'Enfant/Washington Plan...that had theoretically I stopped on a path you favor to discourage I never would have found...I will now confidently get back to reading about the history of Washington DC.

So, lack of evidence proves non-existence huh?

I suppose now you'll say that just because a pentagram was on the apron of the first president of the American empire, it wasn't really an accepted or recognized symbol in any way, for whatever reason.

Here is another question that you may also choose to ignore:

Didn't you know about this use? You are apparently knowledgeable on the topic of symbology.

Did it slip your mind when you stated that there was no meaningful use of a pentagram prior to 1790/1?

And if you knew about it, and didn't forget about it, wouldn't it have been worthwhile information to share on a thread such as this? Or would that be revealing in some way.

BTW, what is that I see on your avatar? At the bottom there. What is that hanging there DUDE.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
First you say the pentagram has no significance at all...(a geometric pattern with five points and also a star...yeah...nothing a mason could possibly like about that right?)

What the HELL is your problem?!? Do you even READ the messages you reply to? Or are you just trying to make stuff up to grill me about?

Then you say it has no significance before 1890...

Then you say it had no prominent significance...

When did I say it had no significance before 1890?!? I NEVER said ANY such thing. I always said it had no prominent use in Freemasonry, ever.

You also claim to know everything there is about symbology because you can without hesitation label a path of research as "incorrect"...

DID I CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT SYMBOLOGY?!?!? Please point me to the place in my post where I said this. I'm dead f'ing serious: tell me WHERE THE DAMN HELL I SAID THIS!!!!!!!!!! If I didn't say it, then don't put damn words in my mouth!

First you say you'll study masonry until the day you die...

Then you say you'll study it until you stop, admitting that it's possible you might choose to do so before expiring...

WHEN THE HELL DID I SAY THIS?!?!?!? I NEVER said this! Can you STOP putting words in my damn mouth!?!?!? What the f is wrong with you?!!?!?!?

A person can STOP anything for MANY reasons. He can stop because he chooses to, he can stop because he is stopped, he can stop because he dies, etc. Did it ever occur to you that I meant it to say "when I no longer..."?!?!?

I suppose now you'll say that just because a pentagram was on the apron of the first president of the American empire, it wasn't really an accepted or recognized symbol in any way, for whatever reason.

So apparently the pentagram has shown up in places regarding Freemasonry, as a five pointed star. I stand corrected.

You say you will always continue learning, which logically means that you don't know everything...except apparently the "incorrect" paths...

Here is another question that you may also choose to ignore:

Didn't you know about this use? You are apparently knowledgeable on the topic of symbology.

Did it slip your mind when you stated that there was no meaningful use of a pentagram prior to 1790/1?

And if you knew about it, and didn't forget about it, wouldn't it have been worthwhile information to share on a thread such as this? Or would that be revealing in some way.

You know, I really don't know what your problem with me is. Why do you feel the need to badger me in this way? Why must you be so damn sarcastic and condescending to me?!?!? Why do you feel the need to constantly insult me? What did I do to you, except try to help you?

I shared with you the information that I had, and you HAD to keep badgering me and insulting me, didn't you? You're nothing but a troll. Leave me the hell alone.

BTW, what is that I see on your avatar? At the bottom there. What is that hanging there DUDE.

It's a star between the square and compasses, not a pentagram.


[edit on 29-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by intrepid]

sebatwerk

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Does anyone know of an explanation or theory as to why the SW to NE street does not complete the pentagram?

Probably because it's not MEANT to be a pentagram. Duh.

Coincidence huh? Fair enough I suppose...not really.

sebatworkRegading the city's layout and its diagonal avenues, it says:

quote:
Washington, DC, was created to serve as the national capital from its inception. The original street layout was designed by Pierre Charles L'Enfant at the time of the city's founding. L'Enfant based his design on Paris, which incorporated a basic grid system, inter-cut with broad diagonal avenues radiating from circles and squares; according to a popular urban legend, the diagonal avenues also served as sightlines for the defense of the city in the event of an invasion.

"A popular urban legend" mentioned in wikipedia huh? Fair enough...not really.

sebatwerk
You do realize that at the time the streets were designed, the pentagram had NOTHING to do with witchcraft, satanism, or anything of the sort... right? In other words, it wouldn't have meant ANYTHING to the masons who designed the layout.

Like I presented info on, George Washington had a pentagram, made of five lines, on his masonic apron 6 years BEFORE he and L'Enfant designed the streets of DC. So yeah it COULD have meant SOMETHING to "the masons who designed the layout."

DO YOU DISAGREE? If so, please explain why?

"...it wouldn't have meant ANYTHING to the masons who designed the layout."...fair enough...but still pretty much false since Washington attended masonic meatings with one on his apron while he and L'Enfant were designing said streets.

*sigh*

sebatwerk
You need to know the motivation in order to understand WHY it was created. Were the slanted streets really there just to add sightlines to possible invading armies, or was it put there for symbolism, as you seem to have been implying? This could mean the difference between knowing whether or not it is pure coincidence, or it was done by masons, as masons, for masons.

I've still yet to find the "urban legend" you seem to like so much anywhere in several volumes of encyclopedias, official online documentation, biographical volumes, etc. All go into detail about the creative reasons for Washington DC plan. Oh yeah, it could be a coincidence. Just like it was a coincidence that George Washington had one on his masonic apron 6 years before...yeah...

sebatwerk
Firstly, I am not misinterpreting that quote, so don't try to belittle me with pointless attacks. If a symbol is used by a mason, yet it is not a masonic symbol, then the fact that the man using it is a mason is irrelevant. You might as well have said that the symbol was put there by a Frenchman, or a diabetic. By stating that the man who created the pentagram in DC streets is a mason, you are implying that his creation of that symbol has something to do with masonry. I am merely proving this assertion wrong.

"I am merely proving this assertion wrong"...No, you're not. You are dismissing it blindly and refusing to even look at it. That's your decision, not mine.

sebatwerk
I am simply telling you that the streets were laid out that way for other reasons, and not for the sake of masonic symbolism!

Yeah, you're "telling" me just that...perhaps you'd like to back this up with something that EXPLAINS the URBAN LEGEND or DESCRIBES any of these "other reasons"?

sebatwerk
....
sightlines for the defense of the city, are the "other reasons" I was referring to when I meant that there are other reasons for the streets being shaped like a pentagram.

Again, one reference to this defense theory please.

sebatwerk
I know enough to be able to comfortably say that the pentagram is NOT, nor ever has been, a prominent masonic symbol, and was only used in reference to ancient usages of the symbol. If the streets were shaped like a Square and Compass, Skull and Crossbones, a two-headed eagle or even a seal of Solomon then I would give your theory some credibility.

First, I NEVER STATED THAT THE PENTAGRAM WAS A MASONIC SYMBOL, PROMINANT OR OTHERWISE sebatwerk. If you think before you write your posts and/or remember them after you do...you will see (just look above) that you said "...Probably because it's not MEANT to be a pentagram. Duh."
I have MERELY BEEN LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE REASONS that would point to it being MEANT as a pentagram. (AND NOT A COINCIDENCE OR AS YET UNFOUNDED URBAN LEGEND).

After this, as I offered information useful to such a discussion, you became more and more steadfast in this idea. When I pointed out that a mason working on the street design had a pentagram on his masonic apron, that COULD BE ADMITTED THAT THE SYMBOL IN QUESTION WAS CREATED...well...NOT BY COINCIDENCE.

sebatwerk
If you are referring to my knowledge of Freemasonry, I can assure you that it didn't come easily. I have studied, and practiced, Freemasonry, it's history, symbols and rituals for several years now, and I will keep studying them until the day I die.

Personally, I never say never, but I don't care what you do. OK. "Until the day you die". That's pretty clear.

sebatwerk
Look, you and I are not discussing philosophy. We are discussing the historical use of a symbol by a fraternity! It's a pretty cut-and-dry subject, there's not much grey area to speak of. But aside from that subject, yes; I will learn MANY new things from here until the day I die. I'm sure that my views will change many times from now to the time I stop studying, learning and growing.

Not as clear. You say that this also meant studying masonry "until the day you die". My bad.

And now, like all productive discussion, it comes to this...

sebatwerk
What the HELL is your problem?!? Do you even READ the messages you reply to? Or are you just trying to make stuff up to grill me about?

Yeah. I read them. Do YOU?

And most recently...

sebatwerk
You know, I really don't know what your problem with me is. Why do you feel the need to badger me in this way? Why must you be so damn sarcastic and condescending to me?!?!? Why do you feel the need to constantly insult me? What did I do to you, except try to help you?

Beside not providing supporting information for the defense theory you keep throwing around...and NOT discussing why George Washington would have it on his apron (which WOULD be helpful to me) and only recognizing that it is a "five pointed star" while ignoring that it is made of five straight lines...YOU HAVE NOT HELPED ME ONE IOTA.

I have found a bunch of interesting stuff ON MY OWN with not one smudge of insight from you.

If you are angry or frustrated or feeling badgered or belittled, get over it. Your argument hasn't included any helpful references one way or the other. Not a one. Quite frankly, I think you're just trying to mislead people by only offering your own BELIEFS without any supporting facts or data. You talk in circles...or PENTAGRAMS.

Don't be angry with ME at being annoyed by this. You are "confident" in your beliefs and are purportedly an accomplished mason. What in the supreme being's name are you doing wasting all this time with me and this thread?

So...I don't know if this will badger you further but...:

IMHO, George Washington, the first president of the United States, and Pierre L'Enfant, both designed a pentagram into the streets of Washington DC. The pentagram seemed to have personal value to George Washington, who also had a pentagram on his masonic apron.



[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

IMHO, George Washington, the first president of the United States, and Pierre L'Enfant, both designed a pentagram into the streets of Washington DC. The pentagram seemed to have personal value to George Washington, who also had a pentagram on his masonic apron.

A question. If they wanted a pentagram designed into the streets, why didn't they make a proper pentagram? From an occult viewpoint a distorted pentagram loses it's meaning and becomes just a random pattern no more symbolic than a random wiggly line.

Ahh cmon there are many masonic symbols in washington! Nothing there! The masons drew that city in their own image!











mathworld.wolfram.com...







www.startiming.net...

www.startiming.net...

www.startiming.net...

www.startiming.net...





I really didn’t want to go into this thread; this has all been debated many times! If the masons cant see there are clear ties to them in the layout of Washington and many other cities, the are blind. No offence meant!

But it doesn’t prove anything other than; the free masons planned how the cities should be built!

[edit on 29-7-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by Cug
[ From an occult viewpoint a distorted pentagram loses it's meaning and becomes just a random pattern no more symbolic than a random wiggly line.

I had to re-read that, I almost took offense to it.

A question. If they wanted a pentagram designed into the streets, why didn't they make a proper pentagram? From an occult viewpoint a distorted pentagram loses it's meaning and becomes just a random pattern no more symbolic than a random wiggly line.

this is true, a distortet pentagram is no pentagram at all! but still, who says the pentagram is distortet? there are many symbolics in washington from obilisk till sun and astronomical layouts and the more obvios GEOMETRY!

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Beside not providing supporting information for the defense theory you keep throwing around...and NOT discussing why George Washington would have it on his apron (which WOULD be helpful to me) and only recognizing that it is a "five pointed star" while ignoring that it is made of five straight lines...YOU HAVE NOT HELPED ME ONE IOTA.

This will be my last reply to you, as I REALLY think this is a waste of time for both you and I. You seem hell-bent on proving me wrong, for what reason I really don't know. Get over your damn self and get back on topic.

First of all, I threw out the sightlines theory ONCE! One time, Uno, Une, ONCE! So stop calling it "your favorite theory", etc etc because I just posted it to give you an example of what might have been a FUNCTIONAL reason for having that design in the streets. This is yet another example of you putting words in my mouth and misquoting me in an attempt to make a valid point.

As for the 5 pointed star in Washington's apron, it alludes to the 5 points of fellowship (represented by the 5 straight lines), a masonic concept which I cannot further discuss. I have NEVER seen it represented in that way anywhere BUT on Washington's apron, and I had never known about it until you pointed it out.

Regardless, your claim that I had no evidence to prove what I was saying is absolutely false! Besides having the personal experience of being a mason and having been taught it symbols and meanings, We also have a link (which YOU found) to a page discussing this and explicitly stating that the pentagram was and is not a masonic symbol. Couple that with the fact that (aside from Washington's apron) we can't fine evidence of prominent use of the symbols, and you have my argument.

Now do me a favor and stop directing posts at me, you will simply be wasting your time. You have gone from being a poster looking for an answer to a TROLL, doing nothing but wasting posts and database space on insulting me and trying to make me look like an idiot. What's more, you have twisted my words and lied about the things I have said to do it!!!

Is this the kind of RESEARCH you do? What is your puspose here on ATS? To beat down those who disagree with you? I suggest you re-examine this situation and ask yourself why you took such an aggressive stance towards me.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

We need some chillin in this thread.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Cug

....
A question. If they wanted a pentagram designed into the streets, why didn't they make a proper pentagram?
...

They were being politically correct. Heavy-set pentagrams had a right to be represented in the 18th century media just as much as asymmetrical pentagrams with more attractive figures. It's a little known fact, but the poor pentagram in question was also left-handed and unpopular.

2nd hand thoughts,
Whats your story? Are you just curious about freemasonry or do you have a theory about masons in general. id like to hear it. Are you curious or suspicious?

Curious about Washington DC's history and design more than anything right now.

I am suspicious of everyone, including myself.

This is not a pleasant era for those of us who are paranoid.

The drug therapy is interesting.

But it dulls one's senses and can make you sleepy.

And it also makes you an easy mind-control target.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

lol. i see. nice post....the frowny faces and thumbs down helped me to follow along. i enjoyed that.

i have a question.

from my understanding the masons study the qabbala?

but since they study the qabbala and study the five elements of the earth aka the pentagram. doesnt this support evidence stating that they are in fact in some way satanic? or derived from satanic roots?

so basically what im saying is to many the pentagram/witchcraft/qabbala are downright satanic. can someone explain to me how these are tied together?

i do recall in scripture god stating not to appreciate this planet were on, because its condemned and under the influence of the fallen angel.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
i have a question.

from my understanding the masons study the qabbala?

but since they study the qabbala and study the five elements of the earth aka the pentagram. doesnt this support evidence stating that they are in fact in some way satanic? or derived from satanic roots?

so basically what im saying is to many the pentagram/witchcraft/qabbala are downright satanic. can someone explain to me how these are tied together?

i do recall in scripture god stating not to appreciate this planet were on, because its condemned and under the influence of the fallen angel.

I believe Kaballah existed before satan became popular with the church and had nothing to do with satanism.

The 5 elements (fire, water, air, earth, akasha) are just a way to perceive and interpret the universe. Nothing ''evil'' with that. There is nothing evil either with the number 5 or the pentagram.

and now that i think of it. if i was a architect, or a urbanist, i sould be glad to use symbols that are dear to me in my work, and i would have a lot of fun drawing pentagrams using roads or make the top of a building like a pyramid. Im sure it was the case for these guys. The worst case scenario here it that this particular configuration will attract certain energies.

Originally posted by moonchild
and now that i think of it. if i was a architect, or a urbanist, i sould be glad to use symbols that are dear to me in my work, and i would have a lot of fun drawing pentagrams using roads or make the top of a building like a pyramid.

And that would be very irresponsible of you for several reasons, most important of which is that you are performing a job for other people, not for yourself and therefore you have no right whatsoever to take artistic liberty with that which only means something to you and not the people you are creating it for.