Masons design the streets of ...

Originally posted by wiggy

Manhole covers are round, because manholes are round....duh.

Seriously, the reason they are round, is this is the only shape that will not fall through a simularly shaped manhole.

I'm relaying a message from the Worthy Wumpus of Wyoming:

"Ah, but WHY are the holes all round?

Answer this and your journey is half over."

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

Originally posted by wiggy

Manhole covers are round, because manholes are round....duh.

Seriously, the reason they are round, is this is the only shape that will not fall through a simularly shaped manhole.

I'm relaying a message from the Worthy Wumpus of Wyoming:

"Ah, but WHY are the holes all round?

Answer this and your journey is half over."

I already answered that in the last post. If they were square,triangle,oval, or any other shape. they could be dropped into the hole. If you have a round manhole cover. with a flange, it WILL NOT FALL into the hole.

So where does the second half of my journy lead?

OH, I get it now. Function over form. 'Cause you could turn a square verticle and the drop it in diagonally.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
OH, I get it now. Function over form. 'Cause you could turn a square verticle and the drop it in diagonally.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Exactly.

This isn't strictly street related, but I "stumbled" on my own "Washington Monument Prophecy" while looking into D.C. and the monument.

It fits in here, but I wrote it for a different thread for obvious reasons, but see what you think about it. I think it's an interesting idea when thinking about Washington sights and symbols.

www.abovetopsecret.com... beginning with post 1544634

Getting back to the idea of the streets and designs that AREN'T THERE (by those who wear their avatars on their sleeves):

Notice how all the POINTS of the PENTAGRAM have elaborate and significant intersections?

* cries of "COINCIDENCE!!! COINCIDENCE!!!" can be heard throughout the land of ATS. "The architects and engineers of the L'Enfant Plan and the McMillan Plan had NO IDEA!!!!! 2+2=5!!! Look at the Emperor's wonderful new clothes!!! *

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
2+2=5!!!

only with large values of 2.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Getting back to the idea of the streets and designs that AREN'T THERE (by those who wear their avatars on their sleeves):

Notice how all the POINTS of the PENTAGRAM have elaborate and significant intersections?

You do realize that at the time the streets were designed, the pentagram had NOTHING to do with witchcraft, satanism, or anything of the sort... right? In other words, it wouldn't have meant ANYTHING to the masons who designed the layout. So, again, I ask you: why would they have done that?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Getting back to the idea of the streets and designs that AREN'T THERE (by those who wear their avatars on their sleeves):

Notice how all the POINTS of the PENTAGRAM have elaborate and significant intersections?

You do realize that at the time the streets were designed, the pentagram had NOTHING to do with witchcraft, satanism, or anything of the sort... right? In other words, it wouldn't have meant ANYTHING to the masons who designed the layout. So, again, I ask you: why would they have done that?

Perhaps this info is wrong? Let us know.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

Yeah, five pointed starts are meaningless right?

...just one interesting passage:

"12. Sir Robert Moray (1609-1673) used the pentacle as his personal mark prior to his initiation into Freemasonry in the Edinburgh Lodge on May 20, 1641. An example can be found in a letter of March 28, 1641. His interpretation and use of the pentagram were personal and did not reflect masonic usage of the period. Moray wrote to Alexander Bruce in 1658:

A pentagraph/pentacle/pentagram is also a Gnostic symbol.

[edit]:

Did you know that the original idea for Washington's memorial was a pyramid?

Sebatwerk, either you are ignorant of the above information or you are purposely throwing a monkey wrench into this thread.

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Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Perhaps this info is wrong? Let us know.

Yeah, five pointed starts are meaningless right?

Sebatwerk, either you are ignorant of the above information or you are purposely throwing a monkey wrench into this thread.

Again I ask you: what motivation would the Freemason designers of DC have for putting a pentagram in the streets of DC? The link that you provided in no way demonstrated that the pentagram was used as a masonic symbol, and it does not demonstrate that it had any satanic meaning until the 20th century:

The short answer to this accusation is that the pentagram has no masonic significance beyond its association with Pythagoras and the Golden Ratio, and is not mentioned in any published masonic ritual.

The twentieth century preoccupation with identifying the pentagram with magic appears to be the result of opinions expressed by Éliphas Lévi and Aleister Crowley.

So what information am I ignoring? I never said that the pentagram wasn't used... I said it wasn't used by masons or satanists (something people love to accuse masons of being).

[edit on 28-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Again I ask you: what motivation would the Freemason designers of DC have for putting a pentagram in the streets of DC? and it does not demonstrate that it had any satanic meaning until the 20th century:

The twentieth century preoccupation with identifying the pentagram with magic appears to be the result of opinions expressed by Éliphas Lévi and Aleister Crowley.

So what information am I ignoring? I never said that the pentagram wasn't used... I said it wasn't used by masons or satanists (something people love to accuse masons of being).

FIRST: Why do I need to know the MOTIVATION of brilliant men who lived over 200 years ago to acknowledge intelligent design implemented in the streets and buildings of Washington DC? If I DO NOT KNOW the motivation or reasoning behind it, then does it cease to exist? Because I can't read long dead minds, then it isn't there??? *sigh*

SECOND: You have quoted a passage that SAYS the pentagram was being used for reasons OTHER THAN MAGICK that may, because you seem to be asking me to explain the thought process of two hundred+ year-old-dead masons, that may explain any personal MOTIVATION in Washington DC. In other words, pick any reason on that page!!!

The Gnostics share the belief in knowledge and secret understanding leading to some sort of salvation that is NON-CHRISTIAN in nature. Maybe that was the MOTIVATION that I'm supposed to explain. Maybe it was the relation of the symbol to cosmological belief that was the MOTIVATION. Maybe it was the Greek use of the symbol in it's usage pertaining to the head/arm/arm/leg/leg of man or the first letter of the Greek alphabet, which of course is "alpha" that was the MOTIVATION. Maybe Washington was a secret member of undocumented descendents of Knights Templars and that was his MOTIVATION. I don't know why I am required to drive on the right-hand side of the road, but I do. Maybe the motivation for that is that the "left hand" leads to the darkside. Who the hell knows???

Again, you seem to be confusing me with someone preoccupied with 20th century delusional junkie boogeymen like Crowley. As the passage you seem to be misinterpreting says, THE PENTAGRAM WAS BEING USED FOR MANY OTHER REASONS PRIOR to the 20th century. This is exactly WHAT I AM SAYING. Because it hadn't been officialy used in the broad grey area known as "masonry" doesn't mean it could never be used by a mason.

AND...*sigh*...you said:

The link that you provided in no way demonstrated that the pentagram was used as a masonic symbol,...

You originally said that there was no masonic use of such a symbol prior to the streets of DC being designed:

The link that I provided has this little tidbit you might chew on for a while if none of the above possible MOTIVATIONS gets you to stop trying to pretend that what IS THERE really ISN'T THERE. Which is rather boring and technically off topic (Masons did design most of DC proper (Washington himself also worked on the orginal plan)). A pentagram is present in said plan, the five points of which are accentuated by landmarks (The White House) and elaborate intersections.

From the link:

12. Sir Robert Moray (1609-1673) used the pentacle as his personal mark prior to his initiation into Freemasonry in the Edinburgh Lodge on May 20, 1641. An example can be found in a letter of March 28, 1641. His interpretation and use of the pentagram were personal and did not reflect masonic usage of the period. Moray wrote to Alexander Bruce in 1658:
"This character or Hyeroglyphick, which I call a starre, is famous amongst the Egyptians and Grecians. For the Egyptian part of it I remitt you to Kircherus [Athanasius Kircher] bookes that I named in my last. The Greekes accounted it the symbol of health and tranquility of body and mind, as being composed of capitall letters that make up the word Hygieia, and I have applied five other letters to it that are the initials of 5 words that make up the summe of Christian Religion, as well as stoick philosophy, all which are to be found in it without much distortion or constraint, and make up the sweet word Agapa, which you know signifies love thou, or hee loves, which is the reciprocall love of God and man, and that same word is one of the 5 signified by the 5 letters. The rest are Gnothi, Pisteuei, Anecho, Apecho. There's enough at once. On the reverse if it were a double seal I would have my Crest in a wreath, being a solid starr rising with ridges from the points to the centre."

Since the streets of DC weren't designed until 1790, this UNOFFICIAL use by a mason did come before. He himself explains his own MOTIVATION. Had he not explained his MOTIVATION, it would not cease to exist. Because I haven't stumbled upon anything that would explain the MOTIVATION for it's appearance on the DC map, IT ALSO DOES NOT CEASE TO EXIST.

EDITED FOR ERRORS DUE TO SLEEPINESS

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Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
FIRST: Why do I need to know the MOTIVATION of brilliant men who lived over 200 years ago to acknowledge intelligent design implemented in the streets and buildings of Washington DC? If I DO NOT KNOW the motivation or reasoning behind it, then does it cease to exist? Because I can't read long dead minds, then it isn't there??? *sigh*

You need to know the motivation in order to understand WHY it was created. Were the slanted streets really there just to add sightlines to possible invading armies, or was it put there for symbolism, as you seem to have been implying? This could mean the difference between knowing whether or not it is pure coincidence, or it was done by masons, as masons, for masons.

Again, you seem to be confusing me with someone preoccupied with 20th century delusional junkie boogeymen like Crowley. As the passage you seem to be misinterpreting says, THE PENTAGRAM WAS BEING USED FOR MANY OTHER REASONS PRIOR to the 20th century. This is exactly WHAT I AM SAYING. Because it hadn't been officialy used in the broad grey area known as "masonry" doesn't mean it could never be used by a mason.

Firstly, I am not misinterpreting that quote, so don't try to belittle me with pointless attacks. If a symbol is used by a mason, yet it is not a masonic symbol, then the fact that the man using it is a mason is irrelevant. You might as well have said that the symbol was put there by a Frenchman, or a diabetic. By stating that the man who created the pentagram in DC streets is a mason, you are implying that his creation of that symbol has something to do with masonry. I am merely proving this assertion wrong.

You originally said that there was no masonic use of such a symbol prior to the streets of DC being designed:

12. Sir Robert Moray (1609-1673) used the pentacle as his personal mark prior to his initiation into Freemasonry in the Edinburgh Lodge on May 20, 1641.

So because ONE mason has used the symbol, that is considered "masonic use"? Widespread use of the symbol would denote masonic use. Interpretation and use of a symbol by ONE MASON does NOT make it a "masonic symbol"!

Because I haven't stumbled upon anything that would explain the MOTIVATION for it's appearance on the DC map, IT ALSO DOES NOT CEASE TO EXIST.

When did I ever say that it DID?!?!? I am simply telling you that the streets were laid out that way for other reasons, and not for the sake of masonic symbolism!

Easy. The five pointed star has no masonic-related significance. Not then. And not now. Not the uses by Solomon, nothing. Ok. I don't really care about that.

I am simply telling you that the streets were laid out that way for other reasons, and not for the sake of masonic symbolism!

I have been looking high and low for any MOTIVATION. And other than a brief mention on always insightful wikipedia as an urban legend or such, I have in no way come across any reason related to some defense in the occurrance of an "attack." This does not mean that I have "ruled it out" by any means.

There is however, plenty of document information that L'Enfant was enamoured with Paris and other famous cities' use of diagonals overlayed on a grid and intersections of significance, importantly here the White House. This is my favored theory. The grid and diagnols and such were used to form larger patterns or designs with obvious historical, religious and cultural significance

YOU are actually the one dismissing the obvious and documented reason which is that L'Enfant and Washington, and McMillan wanted a creative and unique design.

I also offered many probably speculations as the implementation of a prominant pentagram. I'm not sure why you seem so hostile about it having some sort of masonic meaning or not. The fact that you seem so unquestioningly sure of that is a leap of faith is it not? Or are you some sort of all-knowing high level 33 degree with knowlegde of the past, present and future. I don't know...maybe you are.

You are "telling" me there are "other" reasons, but you're not giving me or anyone here any other reasons for the design. You are simply only preoccupied with whether or not the symbol had any masonic meaning in 1790 and the discussion hasn't gotten anywhere near any military-like documentation for the design of Washington DC.

If I were to mention the eastern star, which I know comes after 1790, or blah blah blah what difference or constructive contribution to the discussion of patterns in the city's layout comes from debating a technicality like that any further? Like I said, I concede that this evening I cannot find any use of the pentacle/pentagraph/pentagram OFFICIALLY listed in any OFFICAL masonic historical version of anything prior to 1790. Now what? It seems to be used now, no? Now what?

Have you looked for an instance or instances of usage? And why or why not? You're an intelligent guy. Find me something about the attack defense.

I welcome both equally. I'm trying to find out the facts or theories. Not waving them away as a matter of habit.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

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in my city hall, framed there is a portrait or drawing that of representing the odd fellows. im barely noticing that the city hall building in my home town was originally used for the i.o.o.f. the letters IOOF can also be found at the top of the building. for those who dont know who they are, theyre the international order of odd fellows. to get to the chase, the portrait that i saw had the ''all seeing eye'' and even ships and drawings of exploration. at the bottom it also says Gabilan Lodge.

ill try to get a photo of the framed portrait as soon as i can, theres supposed to be scheduled meetings every thursday at 8pm for the odd fellows. maybe i can get in or find out when the place is open to the public.

-tombomb

The Washington Monument has numerous memorial stones/carvings from Odd Fellows.

www.nps.gov...

Early colonial coins had absolutely in-your-face all-seeing-eyes, an early 50$ note had an unfinished pyramid with 13 "steps". Many coins also had small pentagrams and personified suns. One rather mysterious design from 1714 had a pentagram covering one entire side. [pictures when I can get to it.]
[The Early Paper Money of America. by Eric P. Newman. 3rd ed. 1990.]
[Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins. 1988 edition. Doubleday.]

I also came across a passage in a biographic entry about L'Enfant that could easily be misread by some. It, after explaining the engineer's reasoning for prominant buildings to have many access streets for aesthetic, symbolic, and logistical reasons, goes on to say that with the onset of the civil war, the Capital building served as one of the city's many military points. What some may miss is that most of the streets were already there for reasons already mentioned above. Some additional streets around the Capital building were added as a result of the strategic use of the building. The White House was not used as a base of operations. [I'll type it out when I can get to it].
[The dictionary of Art. 1998 edition. Vol. 33. Grove.]


All interesting stuff I hope.

I'd also like to renew references made by others on this thread to this interesting material (among other points of interest linked in earlier posts by others as well):

www.geocities.com...



[EDIT FOR RESOURCES and one ERROR]

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Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
There is however, plenty of document information that L'Enfant was enamoured with Paris and other famous cities' use of diagonals overlayed on a grid and intersections of significance, importantly here the White House. This is my favored theory. The grid and diagnols and such were used to form larger patterns or designs with obvious historical, religious and cultural significance

YOU are actually the one dismissing the obvious and documented reason which is that L'Enfant and Washington, and McMillan wanted a creative and unique design.

When have I ever ruled this out?!?!? This is the most popular theory and is, to me, the most likely. We have NEVER discussed this theory before, so how can you say I have ruled it out. This reason, and sightlines for the defense of the city, are the "other reasons" I was referring to when I meant that there are other reasons for the streets being shaped like a pentagram.

It's a funny thing too that nobody mentions Paris, though it looks just like DC. Conspiracy theorists ignore it because it wasn't designed by a mason.

I'm not sure why you seem so hostile about it having some sort of masonic meaning or not. The fact that you seem so unquestioningly sure of that is a leap of faith is it not? Or are you some sort of all-knowing high level 33 degree with knowlegde of the past, present and future. I don't know...maybe you are.

I know enough to be able to comfortably say that the pentagram is NOT, nor ever has been, a prominent masonic symbol, and was only used in reference to ancient usages of the symbol. If the streets were shaped like a Square and Compass, Skull and Crossbones, a two-headed eagle or even a seal of Solomon then I would give your theory some credibility.

You are "telling" me there are "other" reasons, but you're not giving me or anyone here any other reasons for the design. You are simply only preoccupied with whether or not the symbol had any masonic meaning in 1790 and the discussion hasn't gotten anywhere near any military-like documentation for the design of Washington DC.

I have given you other reasons, but I do not know nearly as much about those things as I do about masonic symbolism. I don't know enough to tell you why it was created like that, but i DO know enough to say that it's not masonic symbolism. Why is this such a bad thing? I am helping you eliminate a possible reason and help you in your search to find the truth.

Have you looked for an instance or instances of usage? And why or why not? You're an intelligent guy. Find me something about the attack defense.

I am not here to do your research for you. I have led you away from an incorrect path, now it is up to you to keep narrowing down other possibilities. If you have any more questions regarding Freemasonry, don't hesitate to ask.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

I am not here to do your research for you. I have led you away from an incorrect path, now it is up to you to keep narrowing down other possibilities. If you have any more questions regarding Freemasonry, don't hesitate to ask.

What research have you provided for your own favored theory? I'm the one who has found a mention of the Capital building used in the Civil War.

Can't you see that everything has a first official use? How about a new and growing world empire with obvious ties to freemasonry, illumination, rosicrutianism, gnosticism, euclidianism, etc.?

Thank you for leading me and others away from an "incorrect path" due to your absolute and unquestionable knowledge. Thank you for enlightening us with your complete and unquestionable knowledge of all things masonic. Where are your sources to back up all of this reactive and negative response? Standard issue industrially-produced tomes or handwritten ancient documents? OR WOULD THIS BE DOING RESEARCH "FOR ME"?

What degree are you again? What grand lodge do you act on council for?

Are you denying my ignorance or am I denying yours?

We are both ignorant. There is information that neither of us will ever know no matter who we pledge allegiance to. Information that comes easily or is bestowed rather easily is never of much value.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
What research have you provided for your own favored theory? I'm the one who has found a mention of the Capital building used in the Civil War.

I don't have a favored theory, nor do I care to. I'm not as interested in this subject as you are. But, as far as I'm concerned, I think that there would have had to be several good reasons in order for that design to be adopted.

Thank you for leading me and others away from an "incorrect path" due to your absolute and unquestionable knowledge. Thank you for enlightening us with your complete and unquestionable knowledge of all things masonic.

Your sarcasm belies your obvious contempt for me. I'm still not sure what I did to you, but whatever...

Where are your sources to back up all of this reactive and negative response? Standard issue industrially-produced tomes or handwritten ancient documents? OR WOULD THIS BE DOING RESEARCH "FOR ME"?

My sources are in the references YOU found, that said the pentagram was never used as masonic symbolism. Aside from that, my proof is in the LACK OF EVIDENCE available to show that masons truly HAVE used the pentagram as a prominent symbol.

What degree are you again? What grand lodge do you act on council for?

I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Mark Master Royal Arch (York Rite) Mason.

Grand Lodges do not have councils. They have officers appointed to one-year terms.

Are you denying my ignorance or am I denying yours?

We are both ignorant. There is information that neither of us will ever know no matter who we pledge allegiance to. Information that comes easily or is bestowed rather easily is never of much value.

I am not too sure of what you are referring to here. If you are referring to my knowledge of Freemasonry, I can assure you that it didn't come easily. I have studied, and practiced, Freemasonry, it's history, symbols and rituals for several years now, and I will keep studying them until the day I die.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Thank you for leading me and others away from an "incorrect path" due to your absolute and unquestionable knowledge. Thank you for enlightening us with your complete and unquestionable knowledge of all things masonic.

Your sarcasm belies your obvious contempt for me. I'm still not sure what I did to you, but whatever...

It's not contempt if that's what you like to think. It's a gibe at your self-proclaimed apprarently infallible and complete expertise with which you are able to save me time and energy by pointing out an "incorrect path". But, whatever...I'll continue investigating various paths no matter how "incorrect" you or others may believe them to be. As the song goes, I "may be wrong but" I "may be right."

sebatwerk

2nd hand thoughtsWhere are your sources to back up all of this reactive and negative response? Standard issue industrially-produced tomes or handwritten ancient documents? OR WOULD THIS BE DOING RESEARCH "FOR ME"?

My sources are in the references YOU found, that said the pentagram was never used as masonic symbolism. Aside from that, my proof is in the LACK OF EVIDENCE available to show that masons truly HAVE used the pentagram as a prominent symbol.

"my proof is in the LACK OF EVIDENCE available..."

That's some statement...I don't think I even want to touch that one at all.

There are more sources to read and leads to investigate along various paths. Including the one you readily dismiss as "incorrect." Any of these future sources may add to the validity of any one of many theories.

sebatwerk

2nd hand thoughtsquote:
What degree are you again? What grand lodge do you act on council for?

I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Mark Master Royal Arch (York Rite) Mason.

Grand Lodges do not have councils. They have officers appointed to one-year terms.

.... If you are referring to my knowledge of Freemasonry, I can assure you that it didn't come easily. I have studied, and practiced, Freemasonry, it's history, symbols and rituals for several years now, and I will keep studying them until the day I die.

That sounds pretty good. Do most apprentices rise so quickly after "several years" of study? Why do you need to "keep studying"? Is there more to learn? Meaning that your professed knowledge might not be so complete after all? Perhaps you may yet learn of paths that seem "incorrect" now but aren't so incorrect after all? Is this even a possibility that you are willing to accept as useful in a discussion?

How many more years will it take until you can stop studying? Several? 30? When, with all doors having been opened and all corners bathed in light, will you know it all?

And where will other paths that you did not choose to investigate have possibly led you in such a length of time?

If they turned out to lead "nowhere", would that mean they were without value?

You have decided to follow a path that has been followed before as far as this sort of topic is concerned. You will learn what others before you have learned and others before them decided to reveal. As things are revealed, does the amount of concealed information diminish? How do you know?

Please don't think I'm condemning any choice or path you or anyone makes in such a matter. I'm simply raising some questions that may be OT, but are none-the-less valid and applicable to an awful lot of things encountered in life.






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