Stealth detection systems

Originally posted by chinawhite
the f-22 can do the cobra maneuver and the bell maneuver . and with those thrust -vengines it could also do the KULBIT maneuver

There is no conclusive eveidece that the F-22 with its thrust vectored engines can do a cobra. I've seen the "marvel of engineering" video several times and you cant say for sure weather the F-22 did a corba or not.

If it were able to do a cobra(a feat that has not been performed by any western fighter as yet) then would'nt it have been advertised and displayed by Lockheed Martin, USAF, etc ?

The Sukhoi could do the cobra way back in the 1970's.

No fighter(excluding x planes) other than the Su-37 has performed the Kulbit, ever. Even the Su-27 cant perform it. Only the advanced thrust vectored(virtual 3D) and more powerful engines coupled with the canard foreplanes and the new extra lift generating devices on the wings in additon to the new FBW systems enable the Su-37 to perform the Kulbit.

The F-22 cannot perform the Kulbit. It is not best suited for super manuverability, but for beyond visual range combat

This was what the Sukhoi did in 1997. Can the F-22 match this in 2005 ??


external image

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

I don't think the F-22 could do that. 3D TVC is needed, something the F-22 doesn't have.

I think the question would be, how effective would those manovers be in actual dogfighting? The Su-37/30/even 47 would be able to pull tighter turns and climbs, but what good would be slowing down to mach 0.2 while pulling funny manovers do? Doing manovers like the Cobra will just slow it down, making it more vunerable. I think what Sukhoi says is just to attract more people who think that doing Cobras in a dogfight will benefit them in some way. I don't think anybody actually believed that, more likely they will buy the Su-27/30 for a cheap modern frontline fighter with good BVR abilities.

BTW, the Cobra has been pulled on a MiG-29 recently at the Indian airshow while the Americans didn't even bother to do anything with the F-16s and F-18s. Oh well.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
No fighter(excluding x planes) other than the Su-37 has performed the Kulbit, ever. Even the Su-27 cant perform it. Only the advanced thrust vectored(virtual 3D) and more powerful engines coupled with the canard foreplanes and the new extra lift generating devices on the wings in additon to the new FBW systems enable the Su-37 to perform the Kulbit.

The Su-37 is an immitation fighter at best and with russian engineering priorities we can rest assured that the Su-37 will be as safe as a rowboat out in a storm.
The "virtual 3d advanced thrust vectoring"( Ohhh!! What a load of crap! ), do you know what it means? 'virtual 3d vectoring' thats like saying 'virtual flying' just a fancy name to cover up what it actually is - thruster skirt motion . Even an upgraded F16 can do that but its not called 'virtual 3d thrust vectoring ' . Face it the Russians put on some fancy jargon and you guys got sukered in thinking that its something special. The F22 will beat the Su37 just as the F-18 swats the Su27, the F16 swats the mig-29 and the F-15 the rest of what ever cold war junk that the russians can make airworthy.



[edit on 6-6-2005 by IAF101]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite
the f-22 can do the cobra maneuver and the bell maneuver . and with those thrust -vengines it could also do the KULBIT maneuver

There is no conclusive eveidece that the F-22 with its thrust vectored engines can do a cobra. I've seen the "marvel of engineering" video several times and you cant say for sure weather the F-22 did a corba or not.

If it were able to do a cobra(a feat that has not been performed by any western fighter as yet) then would'nt it have been advertised and displayed by Lockheed Martin, USAF, etc ?

The Sukhoi could do the cobra way back in the 1970's.

No fighter(excluding x planes) other than the Su-37 has performed the Kulbit, ever. Even the Su-27 cant perform it. Only the advanced thrust vectored(virtual 3D) and more powerful engines coupled with the canard foreplanes and the new extra lift generating devices on the wings in additon to the new FBW systems enable the Su-37 to perform the Kulbit.

The F-22 cannot perform the Kulbit. It is not best suited for super manuverability, but for beyond visual range combat

any airplane with fly-by wire and a very high thrust engine can do a cobra maneuver.

got this from the below link
(The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver". )


www.abovetopsecret.com...

i think the picture i posted was of a super cobra and not of a standard cobra

Cornering on a Dime: Vectored Thrust

Augmenting the F199 engines is the first ever production-vectored thrust exhaust system. This two dimensional system is capable of vectoring the exhaust up to 20 degrees above and below the horizontal in a fraction of a second, enabling the Raptor to execute sustainable out of plane maneuvers (achieving angles of attack (AoA) as high as 60 degrees.) In comparison, other high AoA aircraft, such as the MiG-29 Fulcrum and the Su-27 Flanker (which is capable of AoAs as high as 180 degrees) achieve their maneuverability through extreme control surface manipulation -- in effect, using wing lift to haul the nose out of plane. This method not only places enormous structural stresses on the airframe, but also causes a rapid bleed off of airspeed and energy, which could leave the fighter suspended helpless in the air following the pitch over. The F/A-22, on the other hand, is able to maintain it's high AoA maneuvers because it uses engine thrust to bring the nose around. In addition, the nozzles can be vectored in opposite directions that increase the roll rate of the Raptor by 50 percent.

www.military.com...

All American fighters after the f-14 can do the cobra. The fact is that American computers are so advanced it won't let the pilot do anything that could jepordize the airframe and result in a crash.

*I have this exact statement in a book and can quote it exactly if need be.*

Ummm, can someone explain to me exactly what the heck the Cobra has to do with "Stealth Detections Systems"?

And who cares? The Cobra is a fancy air-show maneuver which does a great job of showing off Russian low-speed aerodynamics and controls, but has highly questionable military usefulness. When I go to an Air Show I wanna see lots of Cobras and Bells, but when it comes to actual military combat, give me BVR missile shots any day.....

Argh! Now look what you've done, you went and sucked me into this dumb conversation! Back to counter-stealth, people!

yes please lets get back to the topic, stealthspy your destroying your own topics with all this bull#!!!

the F-22 and Awacs has nohting to do with stealth detection systems either, and for the record WE HAVE DISCUSSED ALL THE POSSIBILITIES IN MY THREAT!!!!!

and it has shown alot more information than this one.
Im sure that newcommers have NO IDEA whatsoever what this is all about!

will you please give me more details of your "THREAT" 187onu ???

And what else are yo talking about ?

Originally posted by IAF101
The Su-37 is an immitation fighter at best and with russian engineering priorities we can rest assured that the Su-37 will be as safe as a rowboat out in a storm.

The "virtual 3d advanced thrust vectoring"( Ohhh!!

What a load of crap!

), do you know what it means? 'virtual 3d vectoring' thats like saying 'virtual flying' just a fancy name to cover up what it actually is - thruster skirt motion . Face it the Russians put on some fancy jargon and you guys got sukered in thinking that its something special.

All that you speak of is crap

Read this :The latest Sukhoi's virtual 3D thrust vectoring

BTW : The F-22 only has flat 2D Thrust Vectoring
Jelous ????

The F22 will beat the Su37 just as the F-18 swats the Su27, the F16 swats the mig-29 and the F-15 the rest of what ever cold war junk that the russians can make airworthy.

Yeah the F-15 got swatted by Mig-21's in the recent air exercises.


This is form an AMERICAN source :

The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles.

Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.

www.fas.org...


And read this AWST (american mag an american authors) article well :
Su-30MK Beats F-15C Every Time in USAF simulations

And Chew upon what a US Pilot had to say :

Lt. Col. David "Logger" Rose, a Persian Gulf War F-15 pilot, 41, recalled the time "12 years ago to the day in Desert Storm" when an Iraqi MiG-29 chased away his F-15 on the first day of the war.
www.reviewjournal.com...

What crap do you have left to say now ??

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
All that you speak of is crap

wow! What an informed reply!!

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Read this :The latest Sukhoi's virtual 3D thrust vectoring
BTW : The F-22 only has flat 2D Thrust Vectoring

This is stupid! I am sure you have no idea about planes and how they fly if terminology gives you your kicks then no the F22 has "real" ' biaxial planar thrust orientation and manevering motors' that sound 'russian' enough??
Its 'real' not virtual anyway like I said your vayu-sena.tripod.com is a nationalist indian website/pages(/collage, I don't know, something!) that is pro-russian and psuedo French, quotes obscure ppl from your military shooting rhetoric, so I don't think that it has any credibility what so ever to even begin to be considered as legitimate or accurate description.
Also no more air show tricks !

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Yeah the F-15 got swatted by Mig-21's in the recent air exercises.

Come on, stop your Indian Air Force air exercises BS. If your AF is really so good then how come your AF ran helter skelter in 1971 when we brought in a carrier?www.bharat-rakshak.com... Don't tell me you didn't have your Bison, hippo and rihno? How come your Af gets bumped by Pakistan in the 1965 war?
Some damn air exercise doesn't prove anything, when the stuff hits the roof thats when it matters.
In the air exercises we didn't use our standard radar or the Aim-120's -thats standard ordinance. But thats no excuse we could still have moped the floor with the Indian Airforce, must have been condescension.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
This is form an AMERICAN source :

The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range....

Well, I’m happy that you see the F15 in the same league as the su-35/37 which it truly is thanx to your above article. The F15C is the contemporary of the su37 and always has been, so now you can understand my absolute disbelief when rank amateurs shoot their mouth of when they refer to the su37 and the F22 in the same breath. The mere mention of the F22 in the company of the Su37 is demeaning to the F22 and exhibits a juvenile sense of understanding of military aircraft as I'm sure you understand!!

Anyway this is not the topic and expending any more energy on this subject at this juncture seems utterly foolish to me, you very well go on but I would like to return to the true topic of this thread if you have anything more to add.


[edit on 7-6-2005 by IAF101]

Originally posted by IAF101
If your AF is really so good then how come your AF ran helter skelter in 1965 when we brought in a carrier?

Clearly the IAF is not in the same league as the USAF. There's no secret in that.

Let me ask you a question, why did the whole of america go helter skelter when the Soviet's installed missile bases in Cuba ??

Besides, USA announced neutrality in the 1965 indo-pak war and i have'nt heard of any US carrier in indian waters as well.

Care to provide me any links on that story

How come your Af gets bumped by Pakistan in the 1965 war? [/qoute]

Bumped ?? WTF : India won that war after pakistan surrendered. Go do some research

Some damn air exercise doesn't prove anything, when the stuff hits the roof thats when it matters.

Sure, that's what you say whenever the USAF dose'nt do well.

I am not trying to say that the IAF is better than the USAF or anything like that. The IAF can never stand up to the USAF.

But the air exercises certainly did bust the myth that the USAF were the best at everything they did (as most TV shows proclaim).

The F-15 might not have had its favourite missile on but is that an excuse for getting beaten up by a Mig-21 ??

I have little interest in continueing this irrelavent discussion in the wrong thread. I will not continue this provided you too terminate posting out of the topic.

as posted by StealthSpy
There is no conclusive eveidece that the F-22 with its thrust vectored engines can do a cobra. I've seen the "marvel of engineering" video several times and you cant say for sure weather the F-22 did a corba or not.

Anyone who thinks the F-22 can not do a simple 'cobra' maneuver has apparently no real understanding of it or the aircraft in question? There are multiple pictures floating around this site of F-16s, F-15s, an F-14, and a F-22 doing the vaunted 'cobra' maneuver, StealthSpy. Take a little time to search the archives and see before asserting things that I am seriously beginning to wonder if you really know anything about, but what your friends are subjectively telling you on other boards, k?

The "conclusive evidence" are numerous and the video for which you speak of is conclusive enough to anyone who knows what they are objectively looking at and at what it does indicate about the aircraft in question.

Because what may be deemed an inappropriate 'cobra' maneuver to some, does not "conclusively" prove that the F-22 can not or has not done a 'cobra' maneuver. Besides, despite your linked diagrams of the proposed combat uses of the 'cobra' maneuver, one: very few pilots are skilled or trained enough to use it in a real combat environment, two, if used in a real combat environment, Splash One buddy! The manuever is simply a "show" move, and its application in a real combat air-to-air environment is virtually useless and will result in the aircraft performing such a maneuver in being shot down. Hello? You know of any international air forces currently training and utilizing such the 'cobra' or 'Kulbit' as a doctrine use combat maneuver? I thought so.....

To further discredit the "show stopping" maneuver, please indulge yourself in this?
The Truth about the Cobra Maneuver
(Btw, a number of topics on other boards have centered around the above linked topic thread. Interesting, no?)

Also, the mentioning of this idiotic maneuver being solely done by Russian aircraft is beyond me and simply hilarious at this point in time. Maybe we can get topic threads started next on how "Russian aircraft or Indian bought Russian aircraft or Chinese bought Russian aircraft cannot perform a 360 degree roll at 60 degree AoA [angle of attack] maneuvers like the F-22 can" or how the "F-22 can approach to within 15+/- miles of a S-300/400 anti-air missile system without being detected, for which no other Russian or Indian bought Russian or Chinese bought Russian aircraft can accomplish".....?? Etc, etc.

Silly people rehashing silly mentions and assertions that make no difference in a real world air-to-air combat environment. Nice.......

Btw, wth happened to this topic? Erm, don't tell me, that same ole' same ole', eh?





seekerof

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Pyros
Ummm, can someone explain to me exactly what the heck the Cobra has to do with "Stealth Detections Systems"?

And who cares? The Cobra is a fancy air-show maneuver which does a great job of showing off Russian low-speed aerodynamics and controls, but has highly questionable military usefulness. When I go to an Air Show I wanna see lots of Cobras and Bells, but when it comes to actual military combat, give me BVR missile shots any day.....

Argh! Now look what you've done, you went and sucked me into this dumb conversation! Back to counter-stealth, people!

Thank you, Pyros!
About time someone saw what I have been dealing with concerning most of these type topics and members. Topics started and then drift to off-topic. Why is it so difficult for people to stick with simply the topic?!

As such, the original topic is: Stealth detection systems.
How about lets get back to it?

Thank you.






seekerof

Getting back to the topic, i've heard that "high spectrum infrared" is another methord of detecting stealth airplanes.

I'll try to get more info on it

I have also found that stealth airplanes are particularly vulnerable when raining and also when their bomb bay is opened. (especially the B-2 and the F-117 to some extent)

Infact NATO generals uphold this :

Quick Summary not found for this subjectWesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defences tracked F-117s with old Russian radars operating on long wavelengths. This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them highly visible onradar screens.

Link

Another good link : www.fas.org...

And check this out :

When the F-117 opens its weapons bays, it automatically increases its radar signature. The bays are open only for a short time, but it's long enough for enemy radar to get a lock on the fighter's position and allow the enemy to take countermeasures.

The moment the F-117 opens its weapons-bay doors is the modern-day equivalent of the flaming datum. Once seen, how-ever briefly, the F-117's presence has been announced. Air defenses, knowing the F-117's speed limitations, can quickly mount a counterstrategy that, given modern weapons systems, can find it and destroy it

Link

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

we have discussed this in my topic stealthspy, you know which one because you posted in it!

remeber the "RADAR" one, DON'T COPY MY TOPICS! btw mine was better, this one is full with nonesence!


yes the signature increases alot when the bombay doors are open, thats why it doesn't do that when its beign tracked!

now, why does it incease, simple. it reflects radar signals and as we all know, the missiles themselves reflect alot too so thats why the missiles and bombs are always in-doors, UNLESS there is no need for stealth on a certian mission. It can carry alot more weapons when it has its stuff outsite!!!!

here is a picture:




if an F-15 wouldn't have missiles are bombs on it, it would be alot more stealth!


next time when you posts stuff explane to people what they reading!
any fool can find stuff on the internet about anything, but understanding it is something else!

Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by backtoreality
as other nations develop counter measures to stealth aircraft, America is and has been decade(s) ahead in their planning to counter those counter measures. 'Tis the nature of the business.

Well, at least all Americans HOPE thats the case, but as for proof?

You're asking for proof of emerging or newly deployed technology? You may as well ask for the sky to rain gold...

Black projects are just that... black... and they remain black until someone who fancies him or herself above the law or national security divulges the information...

Projects and technologies are classified for a reason...

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite
the f-22 can do the cobra maneuver and the bell maneuver . and with those thrust -vengines it could also do the KULBIT maneuver

There is no conclusive eveidece that the F-22 with its thrust vectored engines can do a cobra. I've seen the "marvel of engineering" video several times and you cant say for sure weather the F-22 did a corba or not.

If it were able to do a cobra(a feat that has not been performed by any western fighter as yet) then would'nt it have been advertised and displayed by Lockheed Martin, USAF, etc ?

The Sukhoi could do the cobra way back in the 1970's.

No fighter(excluding x planes) other than the Su-37 has performed the Kulbit, ever. Even the Su-27 cant perform it. Only the advanced thrust vectored(virtual 3D) and more powerful engines coupled with the canard foreplanes and the new extra lift generating devices on the wings in additon to the new FBW systems enable the Su-37 to perform the Kulbit.

The F-22 cannot perform the Kulbit. It is not best suited for super manuverability, but for beyond visual range combat

If I can kill you before you can kill me why do I need to perform a maneuver like a Cobra? If I'm in range of your guns shame on me...