Stealth detection systems

I'am not British, but Daily Telegraph is a well-known and trustworthy paper... So, a stealth detection system eh... Well, as long as the "allied" nations are the only ones to have this technology there is nothing to worry about...

And if the stealth factor is off, then the winner is the one who has a faster and more maneuverable plane...

because you confuse people with all your text spam!

the least thing you can do is explane what what is. and dont' post the bull# which doens't help anyone!

me myself doens't post alot, we discuss it. YOU DONT!

do you really believe that if the paper says, "we can detect stealth" they ectually can?
in that case, I'd go to russia and post one just to confuse the americans, or scare the americans, trust worthy sorces are spies/agents in the field not a stupid newspapers, kids can post stuff!

Guess what, the F-22 has a first see-first kill capability only and solely when it is flying against another non stealthy fighter without any AWACS or ground-based radar to support it.

Like this :

What happens when you add an AWACS to the red side ???
The same thing as in the pic above.

The F-22 will also loose its first see capability when Anti-Stealth radars (whose details have been extensively covered in the previous pages) are used.

I've heard that the F-22's RCS is equal to that of a "bumble bee" when it goes against unaided fighters. But when they are assisted by an AWACS, the F-22 will turn up like a bumble bee on the radar visual display screen.


Raptor Killer :

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
And if the stealth factor is off, then the winner is the one who has a faster and more maneuverable plane...

And you know that the Sukhoi wins against the F-22 in this ball game any day anytime any place.

Stealth spy, you are overlooking the fact that the Raptor will be operating with AWACS support anyway, as well as JSTARS, and so still has the advantage in that it is harder to detect than the opponent.

That Tu 204 AWACS pic looks interesting, is it real or photoshopped? I wonder if the Tu 204 would have the range for this role?

Originally posted by waynos
Stealth spy, you are overlooking the fact that the Raptor will be operating with AWACS support anyway, as well as JSTARS, and so still has the advantage in that it is harder to detect than the opponent.

Well then both aircrafts will be detected waaaaaaaaaay before they come into each other's missile ranges.

Where is the question of first kill if your first see capability is useless?

Besides Russian planes have more effective longer range missiles.

That Tu 204 AWACS pic looks interesting, is it real or photoshopped? I wonder if the Tu 204 would have the range for this role?

It's from Vernik's aviation page. >> www.aeronautics.ru...

I guess its range its sufficient.

Besides India will be getting the Israeli-American Phalcon AWACS in a year's time. Its got a further range than the latest E-3 .

It wont be surprising to see the russians figure it out if the russians want to

Originally posted by Jodokas
Even if it is possible to detect stealth through a mobile phone network it would be ungodly easy to take down that network. Send up an EA-6 or a B-52 with an ECM pod next thing you know thousands of watts along the same frequency. That would fry every tower for at least 100 miles. Stealth is only one part in the US arsenal.

And do you expect to waiting to get blacked-out by microwave weapons.

Check this out :

Another defense institute in Bangalore is using a microwave-producing version of Kali which the scientists use for testing the vulnerability of the electronic systems going into the LCA Tejas under development and designing electrostatic shields to protect them from microwave attack by the enemy

This is an excerept from my thread : India's electron-accelerated pulse-power gigahertz microwave beam weapon : KALI

Go check it out.

If India are into such developments its not silly to assume that nations like Russia and other European nations (Germany, Britain, France,etc) with a higher tech level than India have alredy developed such shields and are on the verge of entering service.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Guess what, the F-22 has a first see-first kill capability only and solely when it is flying against another non stealthy fighter without any AWACS or ground-based radar to support it.

My God man!! How many times does it need to be proved that the F22 is the best out there?
Again the AWACS! The f-22's First see First kill capability is not dependent on the AWACS's radar ( which is classified BTW ). A combination of improved sensor capability, improved situational awareness and improved weapons provides first-kill opportunity against any threat.
Also you cannot say that this is F22 radar range as that is classified as well.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
What happens when you add an AWACS to the red side ???

The "red sides" radar would be significantly improved but the F-22 would still not be compromised . Even if it were inside the AWAC's radar range its signature would not be significant unless some crazy Boris in the AWAC decides to shoot down birds and bees!
It’s all about information gathering and management, technical superiority and an effective combat strategy. When fighters are sent up its not like " Ok Joe, X marks the spot. Go get'em! " .There is a lot of intelligence, planning etc that goes into a mission especially if it’s a stealth mission.
Most probably in this scenario the F22 would most likely go for the AWAC first or may avoid it all together.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
The F-22 will also loose its first see capability when Anti-Stealth radars (whose details have been extensively covered in the previous pages) are used.

Those radar systems were good finds granted but they sound far-fetched. The whole cell phone band signals bouncing off planes and stuff is kind of weird but if its possible then its good for the US, atleast that would inspire the Pentagon to update the 1960's version of " Low Observable's".

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
And you know that the Sukhoi wins against the F-22 in this ball game any day anytime any place.

Sacrilege!! Sacrilege! Recant now !! Recant NOW!!
This has been said a million times and will be said just one more time the Sukhoi's are mere "posers" when they are compare to the F22.
From ATS:Can the Sukhoi grovel at the F22 Raptor's feet??

This Thread started out interesting but now has become about "how to berate the F-22?".Accept the truth the F-22 is the best and will be for a long time.

Originally posted by IAF101
How many times does it need to be proved that the F22 is the best out there?

Proved ?? When has the F-22 been proved. All the while the F-22 has been a "paper tiger".

I dont mean any offence but here are a few quotes :

From the Washington post :

The Air Force originally wanted to see the plane's sophisticated avionics, or electronics gear, achieve 20 hours of uninterrupted flying time without a software failure. When the plane couldn't achieve that, the Air Force changed its goal to flying five hours without a software failure. As of January, the plane could average no better than 2.7 hours.

In addition, the plane's microprocessor is an obsolete model no longer manufactured.

It's no surprise, then, that watchdog groups like the Project on Government Oversight are asking the Pentagon to put this sick puppy of a program to sleep.

Link

"The Aim 120C is a compromise. Reason being, the tails and wings of the missile have been reduced in size with the intent for the missile to fit better into internal bays. "

source : www.f22fighter.com...

Infact the F-22 has been doing nothing but crashing lately :


Link



I dont mean any offence but the F-22 needs a lot more work on it before it can go swatting enemies airplanes.

"I dont mean any offence but the F-22 needs a lot more work on it before it can go swatting enemies airplanes. "

Exactly, The plane is good, but from all the vidos that are existing you can clearly see, that the pilots don't want to do any hard maneuvers, just because they know that It can't handle it... And all the "raptor fans" are telling me that the enemy planes will get shot down before they even get the position to notice the raptor on their screens. BUT, what happends when they do... then the sun ein't shining anymore... So, a lot more testing and the plane should be able to fight with other top fighters... (It took the F/A 18 Hornet about 30 years to get to the top fighters) And the Raptor should do the same thing under 10...?

Originally posted by IAF101
Sacrilege!! Sacrilege! Recant now !! Recant NOW!!

This has been said a million times and will be said just one more time the Sukhoi's are mere "posers" when they are compare to the F22.
From ATS:Can the Sukhoi grovel at the F22 Raptor's feet??

This Thread started out interesting but now has become about "how to berate the F-22?".Accept the truth the F-22 is the best and will be for a long time.

I'm talking about a dogfight, and you'll know it if you read the context of my previous post.

Sure the F-22 is more manuverable then its predecessor, the F-15 but can it take on a Sukhoi or a Mig-29....No Way.

Infact there is no conclusive evidence that the F-22 can perform a cobra that the Su-27 could perform with a full ordinance load in the 1970's.

Now the latest Su-37, Su-30MKI have virtual 3D Thrust Vectoring, Canard foreplanes and with much more advanced FBW can perform mind boggling manuvers like the Kulbit.

The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets.

Go take a look at :
Engines with TVC better than the F-22

Radar (also 5th gen and compareable to the F-22's)

In my opinion everybody just think that the Raptor is good because the American Gov. put so much money in it... but we all know a fact that can not be denied... The Russias are the best when it comes to aerodynamics... During the Vietnam war the Mig-21 Fishbeds approved to be much better then the F-4... Just because of their maneuverability skills...

Welcome to the world of measures, countermeasures, and counter-countermeasures. Stealth technology is not unbeatable. However is it also not stagnent. The stealth coading on the F-117 and B-2 are not the same ones they origionally had when they were first built in the 1970's and 1980's. The Pentagon is involved in anti-stealth research as well as stealth research. Yes the steath technology in use today will become obsolete some day, but by that time there will be something new in the bushes.

Remember: Ignorance works both ways!

When the first radar system came out, people thought surprise attack would be impossible, and then came stealth. Now Anti-steath is coming along. it's only a matter of time til the balance comes back

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I'm talking about a dogfight, and you'll know it if you read the context of my previous post.
Sure the F-22 is more manuverable then its predecessor, the F-15 but can it take on a Sukhoi or a Mig-29....No Way.

Infact there is no conclusive evidence that the F-22 can perform a cobra that the Su-27 could perform with a full ordinance load in the 1970's.
Now the latest Su-37, Su-30MKI have virtual 3D Thrust Vectoring, Canard foreplanes and with much more advanced FBW can perform mind boggling manuvers like the Kulbit.

StealthSpy,
This discussion has come up a hundred times already and I myself have disproved to many different members on ATS the veracity of your/their claims with credible evidence to satisfy them, by bringing this on so late in the 'day' is just a waste of time, you could go through the umpteen threads we have here on ATS and find all your answers in varying degrees of detail for your queries. That said, you also suffer from bias and to convince the opinionated is next to impossible, but rest assured that hard fact proves the F22's superiority.
I would like to touch on a few points though;
Your basic assumption that 'such and such' are the abilities of a F22 are wrong nobody can say look these are the capabilities of an F22, most are classified and some are still in development, so its just ludicrous to compare numbers and argue about our perceived notion on the plane.
Also your 'Kurbit' and 'cobra' or 'super cobra' even a rank amateur would know that these are just air-show tricks and a planes ability to perform these frivolous maneuvers does not grant it any credibility as a 'good' fighter aircraft as these cannot and will not be done in a real combat situation, these are merely done to impress prospective buyers and entertain people.

as posted by StealthSpy
Proved ?? When has the F-22 been proved. All the while the F-22 has been a "paper tiger".

Oh really?
Don't think so.
Five Eagles In Three Minutes
F-22s are far from a "paper tiger", StealthSpy....
Might want to keep with those REAL "paper tigers" such as the Berkut that you keep posting pictures of, k?

As for this false mention:

I've heard that the F-22's RCS is equal to that of a "bumble bee" when it goes against unaided fighters. But when they are assisted by an AWACS, the F-22 will turn up like a bumble bee on the radar visual display screen.

Ummm, no, they certainly will not.
The AWACS may show up on "visual" on an enemy AWACS radar display screen, but the Raptor will continue to show up as that lil' ole' "bumble bee." Even going against an AWACs, the Raptor's RCS will hold, as well as becoming the number one kill priority of any fighter, Raptor or otherwise, in the area of that enemy AWACs. Provide to the contrary if you don't think or continue to assert otherwise. Till then, talk is cheap.




seekerof

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Seekerof]

The F-22 will be seen on the fighter's radar too when its like around ~10nm apart.(assuming its not yet shot down). The F-22 is not invisible, but is visible only when its sufficiently close an an unaided fighter.

Now the AWACS's radar is waaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than the fighter's. The F-22 will appear on the radar screen of the AWACS when the fighters are out of its missile range just the way it would appear when it very close to the fighter with an unaided fighter.

And if you throw in a few VERA-E's, mobile phone network type of system, space radars the F-22's cause is fatally weakened.

Although i accept that the Su-47 Berkut is a paper tiger as well, i found no mention of an AWACS aiding the F-15's that the F-22's took out.
There is also no mention of the variant and specifications of the F-15's that took part and its also silent about weather or not it had its AESA radar.

Infact some F-15's got taken out by Mig-21's during air exercises and the Americans said that it was because the F-15 did not have its latest AESA radar onboard, but regular the 1990's doppler radars.

If its those kind of F-15's that the 22 took out, then 3 minutes is way too long.

From the Washington post :

The Air Force originally wanted to see the plane's sophisticated avionics, or electronics gear, achieve 20 hours of uninterrupted flying time without a software failure. When the plane couldn't achieve that, the Air Force changed its goal to flying five hours without a software failure. As of January, the plane could average no better than 2.7 hours.

In addition, the plane's microprocessor is an obsolete model no longer manufactured.

It's no surprise, then, that watchdog groups like the Project on Government Oversight are asking the Pentagon to put this sick puppy of a program to sleep.

Link

You keep asking us Chinese posters not to post old links or articles. Well, this is in fact quite an old link. Flying hours have since increased a lot, as well as the F-22 recieve a lot of software updates. No aircraft has started smoothly, try the LCA for example. There are many more other very sucessful planes which didn't start smoothly. The Su-27/30/33/34/35/37 or better known as the T-10 when it first started,is also another example, but it has now become one of the world's best fighters.

"The Aim 120C is a compromise. Reason being, the tails and wings of the missile have been reduced in size with the intent for the missile to fit better into internal bays. "

source : www.f22fighter.com...

There are a lot more differences than that. If making a missle smaller is a conpromise, let me give you a Russian example; the airlaunched BrahMos. Just because it is smaller, does not mean it is any less capable of completing its mission. In fact, most smaller versions of missles are often the newer versions, with better capabilities. They usually have newer sensors and controls to make it better than the bigger versions. Another example, the later versions of the R-27s and R-77s are smaller than the original versions, but with a bigger range and better manoverability.

And, if you think the F-22 is a paper tiger, so are almost all planes that have been made from the 1970s onwards, with the exception of the F-15s,F-16s,F-14s etc. The Su-27 has only had 1 kill. Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, MiG-31, Mirage 2000, blah, blah, blah all haven't seen combat. Russian planes...well...they aren't working too well with Iraqi maintainence. Likewise, you might say the F-14,F-15,F-16,F-18 etc were all paper tigers since they haven't proven themselves against properly maintained and piloted Sukhois and MiGs. Simply put, there hasn't been a war between 2 military superpowers since world war II.

the f-22 can do the cobra maneuver and the bell maneuver . and with those thrust -vengines it could also do the KULBIT maneuver








quote from Figher Master FIN

During the Vietnam war the Mig-21 Fishbeds approved to be much better then the F-4... Just because of their maneuverability skills...

most of the fighters the vietnese used were mig-19s and mig-17s. the reason the f-4 was losing dogfights at the start of the war was because they didn't have a Gun. they just relied on missiles

the kill loss ratio for the f-4 was 4:1