Question for Christains. Abrotion and the bible

Originally posted by jake1997

Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

Will this do? What god says should happen when a man suspects his wife of adultary:

5:19
And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:20
But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
5:21
Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
5:22
And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
5:23
And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
5:24
And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse[period]: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
5:25
Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
5:26
And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
5:27
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
5:28
And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
5:29
This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
5:30
Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
5:31
Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

www.cforc.com...

What we have is obviously [to those not watching the dancing banana] is a PRIEST performing a chemical abortion on a woman as instructed by Moses.

Interesting Riley

Now see if you can google for the real meaning.

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by riley
Even though I already explained.. it's about putting some sort of 'end' to her rape ordeal.. that would be a bit difficult with 'him' [his sperm] still inside her.

Really! I am sure you are very knowledeable about rape victims.

Yes.. I know two who have become pregnant through rape.. [and a couple others that have been raped/molested but didn't fall pregnant.. it's a nasty world] that I had to help them through it and I saw first hand what it done to them.. and I myself sucessfully defended myself against an attempted rape.. so whats the sarcasm for?

Nine months after the event, the victim suddenly realises she isn't over with it, and wants an abortion. An unlikely scenario, sorry. If she wanted to "end the ordeal", she'd take some form of contraception

What? You're not making any sense. Are you talking about the day after pill [as in day after- might not work and they may not take it in time] or do you think all women should have a diaphram inserted permantly just in case they get raped?

I was not suggesting that it is from a desire for vengeance.

Actually you did:

If it is not vengeance on the part of the victim, then what is it? Why should the victim dislike the child so much so as to abort it- just because the father was a rapist?

I was just using it as an example to show the ridiculousness of the notion that "If been you've been raped, abortion should be done".

I'm pro-choice.. not pro abortion.. if a woman has the fortitude to continue a rape pregnancy.. best of luck to her.. if she doesn't feel like she could handle it.. she should not be denied the option.

And please don't try teaching ME about rape psychology. I find it very unlikely that YOU have had enough experience in the matter to decide what must be done to ease the strain on the victim.

:shk:

Of course there is free will! I am completely free to go murdering all the children I want, but it still doesn't make it right.

'Children' are not inside a woman's body.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by jake1997
Interesting Riley

Now see if you can google for the real meaning.

You asked people to find bible passages that talk about abortion.. I found one that does [and, unlike the quotes you provided.. it actually does].. the meaning is obvious.. care to provide/make up another one that refutes it?

edit. to be fair:


[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

I was not suggesting that it is from a desire for vengeance.

Actually you did:

If it is not vengeance on the part of the victim, then what is it? Why should the victim dislike the child so much so as to abort it- just because the father was a rapist?

I was just using it as an example to show the ridiculousness of the notion that "If been you've been raped, abortion should be done".

There, you've answered yourself. The quote you posted after the one where you showed that I suggested that it was a desire from vengeance.

Originally posted by riley
I'm pro-choice.. not pro abortion.. if a woman has the fortitude to continue a rape pregnancy.. best of luck to her.. if she doesn't feel like she could handle it.. she should not be denied the option.

There you go again. What is it about having a kid that needs "fortitude"? Why are you calling it a "rape pregnancy"? Are they done differently from other pregnancies? What I am trying to show here is the ridiculous assumption that there is something extra painful about giving birth to a baby that came as a result of rape, and that there is something different about aborting this baby, and a baby that came as a result of consentual intercourse. The baby is just a baby. It has no knowledge of the reason for it's existence in this world, has no part to play in the evil committed by the raper, but it is still killed, after it comes into conciousness.

Originally posted by riley
'Children' are not inside a woman's body.

See, that is where you and the christians (and me) differ in this thread.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by babloyi]

I hate when that happens. YOu click quote and the rest of your post gets cleared.

Your twisting of scripture comes from

A Prochoice Bible Study, published by Episcopalians for Religious Freedom.

Go figure. An apostate church twists the meaning of Gods word.

God is the judge in this verse.
The liquid itself will do nothing to the woman unless she is guilty of adultery as accused by her husband.

Notice the difference here and in Exodus. riley and the episopalians who wrote the study claim that both are talking about a woman losing her baby

Compare numbers 5 to this

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her,

This says

1.) The woman has a child inside her.
2.) The child (fruit of her womb) departs


Now if numbers 5 is talking about this, it would use that terminology.

So then what is numbers 5 about? Remember this?

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:

This woman had constant bleeding. This means several things. One of which is that she could bare no children. The second, and more devestating is this
LEV 15:19-30 shows us that a woman is considered unclean during the time 'of her blood'. For that whole week she is unclean and anything she touches is unclean.

That woman who touched Jesus took a big chance. The priests would have killed her for that same thing. Jesus healed her. But for 12 years she was an outcast. Cursed among her people. She was unclean.

Now lets go back to numbers 5 and read it again and see what is being talked about.

If you have any further questions on this, feel free to PM me. I'd like to keep this on topic as much as possible.

(ASV) And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, if she be defiled, and have committed a trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter, and her body shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

(CEV) If the woman has been unfaithful, the water will immediately make her unable to have children, and she will be a curse among her people.

(ESV) And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people.

(GB) When yee haue made her drinke the water, (if she bee defiled and haue trespassed against her husband) then shall the cursed water, turned into bitternesse, enter into her, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot, and the woman shall be accursed among her people.

(HNV) When he has made her drink the water, then it shall happen, if she is defiled, and has committed a trespass against her husband, that the water that causes the curse will enter into her and become bitter, and her body will swell, and her thigh will fall away: and the woman will be a curse among her people.

(KJVR) And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

(MSG) If she has defiled herself in being unfaithful to her husband, when she drinks the water that delivers a curse, it will enter her body and cause acute pain; her belly will swell and her womb shrivel. She will be cursed among her people

God is the judge.

IF she is guilty, then she will be cursed among her people

[edit on 30-5-2005 by jake1997]

[edit on 30-5-2005 by jake1997]

[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

the preview button was posting


[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by jake1997
(MSG) If she has defiled herself in being unfaithful to her husband, when she drinks the water that delivers a curse, it will enter her body and cause acute pain; her belly will swell and her womb shrivel. She will be cursed among her people

God is the judge.

IF she is guilty, then she will be cursed among her people.

So.. if she has had sex with someone else.. she becomes barren.. if she hasn't.. she remains fertile.. yep that makes alot of sense. What happens if she's pregnant to this 'other man'? Wouldn't shriveling up her uterus cause a miscarriage?
Could you provide a source for these 'interpritations' jake?


[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

Post again riley... mine messed up too. Look up, my post is different now.

Mine cleared when i hit the quote button on edit.

as for the MSG bible...put it next to the GB bible quote too. Its the first english version.
Then I'll await your addressing the whole unclean issue and the source of the abortion idea

Originally posted by babloyi
Come, come now BaastetNoir, if you are going to judge a religion by what people who claim to be from that religion have done, then Christianity is most definitely the aggressor here. PEOPLE may have called for the death of "infidels", Islam did not.
Besides, I am sorry to say this, but you are contradicting yourself. No idea where you are from, but if your country was under Islam for 250 years, and if Islam calls for death of infidels, wouldn't you be dead? Infact, your parents, parents, parents would be dead. Your very existence negates your statement.

well thats WHY BATTLES and wars EXIST...they finally got KICKED OUT. and you know ...it was back in the 1300's...it has been a while since than and i wanst there... and the point is they kept trying and trying but they couldnt make it ...and its a "holy war" that muslim fanatics have been fighting against the "world" for centuries....but never mind... that was not the point of this thread... the thread is about abortion and the bible...

and like i said before

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. = NO ABORTION, but if people want to get abortions ...hey knock yourselves out ...it only causes damage to their bodies, minds and souls, not mine...

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Seapeople


Christians, are ALL foolish.

This is your opinion but here is a truth:
Psalm 14:1a The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.

Yeah, you are so smart! Attack me by using the very book that I could pull a thousand horrifying contradictions out of. Not to mention murder and suffering directly caused by your ever so loving god. Attack me by using the bible....good one.

Originally posted by jake1997
Interesting Riley

Now see if you can google for the real meaning.

You are really lame jake. Is the verses about stoning the rape victims "symbolic" as well? What jake, what are the "real" meanings behind this clear set of passages.

Riley, excellent find.

I am starting to believe that in Jake World he really has an issue with women and women’s body by interpretation of his choices in the bible.

Jake are you having a problem with women’s wombs and what they want or do not want to be growing in there?

I am a woman you know I am starting to believe that if given the choice of woman judgement to you, I think you will condemn all of us just for being women and having a uterus, are you obsess with conception and birth? Been only a woman’s right by design.

Really sad that you spend all this thread and perhaps all your life on finding condemnation to judge us, you must be a very unhappy person.

Funny how real life can keep us away from Above Top Secret at times Now if only I could figure out how the Lawnmower Man did it...

With regard to walking on water and turning water to wine, the reason they were so miraculous is because it seems impossible to us. Yet, every time you take a step, there is a chance all the particles in your foot will fit perfectly with the particles in the sidewalk and you'll sink in. The likelyhood is negligable, but the possibility is still there. In a sense, the physical setup for walking on water has always been there, but the likelyhood has always been negligable.

As to Noah, I haven't researched enough on the Ark, the animals, and the like to be able to assert an opinion. In this instance, all I have to stand on is my faith, so I'll pass it by until my knowlege is increased. There's a lot in that book, and my studies haven't taken me to in depth of Noah yet.

Now, omnisciance and free will. I don't know how familiar you are with temporal physics, but obviously it is still a very theoretical field, as the theories have no way with our present technology to test them. However, many of the theories regarding the timeline involve branches. There is one theory which involves multiple timelines, one for each decision made. So, in one timeline, I could have misspelled could at the same time you logged in at the same time etc. In another timeline, could was spelled correctly but everything else at that moment took place in the same way.

This timeline could be how God sees time. There are decisions to be made by every creature at every moment. I can hold my breath, take a shallow breath, or take a deep breath right now. If I take a deep breath, I can hold it, exhale loudly, or just let it out. God may be able to see all of those decisions and the ramifications while, to us, it appears to be a straight line.

Another way to look at this is looking at physics and free will. If we do not have souls or something that does not fit in with the physical nature of the universe as we know it, every action we make was already determined at the big bang. Every one of those particles colliding with another is set on a mathmatical trajectory, and will impact others. Then, way down the line, we have several particles which gathered together here on earth, in my head, which are continuing to interact with one another causing me to type this. No free will whatsoever. This conversation, in effect, already took place as soon as matter entered the universe. Accountability is bunk, if I murder someone, I had no way to prevent it, it was determined before Earth ever came into existance.

Er...I think I've kinda been sidetracked from the purpose of the thread, though, so I gotta get back to work. Rock, rock on!

It is not necessary to bring in all those kooky psych reasons for trying to understand Jake.

God did design us with a womb and the womb was designed to carry children. The womb would not have a child without the cooperation of a man. Therefore why is it hard to understand that a man should want his child to live.

Just as it takes 2 plus God to make a baby, doesn't it follow that the man should have just as much say about whether that baby lives or dies in the womb?

We cannot get around the fact that abortion is legal. That does not mean that it is good. There isn't any law that a woman MUST have an abortion, at this time and in this country we can still make the choice for life.

Originally posted by marg6043
I am starting to believe that in Jake World he really has an issue with women and women’s body by interpretation of his choices in the bible.

Jake are you having a problem with women’s wombs and what they want or do not want to be growing in there?

I am a woman you know I am starting to believe that if given the choice of woman judgement to you, I think you will condemn all of us just for being women and having a uterus, are you obsess with conception and birth? Been only a woman’s right by design.

Really sad that you spend all this thread and perhaps all your life on finding condemnation to judge us, you must be a very unhappy person.

Should'nt women worry about what grows in their womb, before they ...huh...lets say "drope the guard"..??? what is brith control for ??? of course im not talking about rapes and incests and such horrible situations like that.

But has a woman myself i can only say " if you act like a dog , and lay with a dog you are gonna wake up with flees"...

so maybe WOEMN SHOULD RESPECT THEMSELVES and nnot let themselves get preganant and use abortion as an excuse an instrument of birth co ntrol... i mean im 29 and I have no kids neither was I ever poregnant, and i can tell you right now i was FAR FAR FAR frombeeing a virginal saint. SO. if birthcontrol worked FOR ME, it can work for everyone else ,as long as womne ARE RESPONSIBLE... I mean if women want to be FREE and EMANCIPATED than they should make sure they have the right weapons to play that game. I mean if any woman is waiting for a man to use any kind of protection , well im sorry to say but thats just another abortion waiting in line.

EMANCIPTAION = RESPOSIBILITY... not excuses...

but than again thats just my opinion, and i also dont see how exactly does Abortion shows the world or anyone else for that metter that " A WOMAN IS INDEPENDENT"... independent for what ??? to reck their bodies and health ???

reply to post by Seapeople


#1 he knew our inner man in our pre-life before we were born

#2 there is no set time to die : bring one scripture that states such a fallacy

#3 the conclusion: God knew our inner man and knew when to put in the womb he did not. he made it so that person could b/cm a prophet but the life is in the hands of man unless God intervenes. the same is with a person who wasnt murdered... that person can choose not to follow God and fulfill the plan God has for him indicating spiritual death and eternal hell. its very sad but the life of humans is in the hands of humans