Question for Christains. Abrotion and the bible

Originally posted by jake1997
This again, now matter how hard you push it, can only come out the way the bible guides us.

In the bible, children are a blessing.
In the same post that you quoted me on, you left out the other half of the equation in order that you could argue.

Wrong.. I left it out because it says 'life for life, eye for eye' etc. which I'd already established would be the punnishment for harm to the woman so I would have just been repeating myself if I didn't ommit it.. besides which it doesn't look like you posted the actual words of the bible as the other three versions I saw do not mention 'children'.. seems you've already edited the proverb to suit your own argument. It would be helpful if you could post a translation as close as possible to the original.
So.. whats the fine for if not for the death of a fetus? If the law was an eye for an, tooth for a tooth, life for a life etc.. and you assume it's for making the woman infertile.. they'd be required to turn around and castrate her attacker and make him barren wouldn't they? They wouldn't fine him. Given the culture of the day.. [in which abortion and infanticide were prevelant] that doesn't make any sense.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Wouldn't people just shrug it off and leave it at that if there as no harm done? That doesn't make any sense. Laws were very brutal in those days.. there would have been no point reporting a harmless accident.. or to bother putting into the bible for that matter.

heheh....that would be pretty irresponsible of the OT. Most of it was dedicated to setting up laws for the Jews to live by. I don't think they would have thought it a "harmless accident" if someone tried causing a miscarriage, even if it was unsuccessful.
Again, your interpretation is just that-an interpretation. "Harm" could mean
both to the child and/or the mother.

Originally posted by riley
Harping?:shk:I guess if you have never been raped or known anyone personally who's been raped you wouldn't know why people are 'harping' on about it.

tsk, tsk...now don't put words in my mouth. I acknowledged that rape os a terrible thing, I just didn't see it's relevance to this discussion.

It would not be about 'punnishing the child'- thats ludicrous and this assumption that it's somehow just vengence on the part of the victim is ignorant. It's about minumalising the trauma of a rape victim, she did not ask to be impregenated and should not be expected to carry it if she is ademently against it.. and neither should she be judged for terminating.

If it is not vengeance on the part of the victim, then what is it? Why should the victim dislike the child so much so as to abort it- just because the father was a rapist? Sure, she did not ask to be impregnated, but lots of people get what they didn't ask for. More often than not, it turns out to be blessing, too. An alcoholic didn't ask to be born prone to alcohol, a blind person didn't ask to be born that way....but it happens, people make the most of what they can, and end up exceeding themselves. I have never heard of a case where a mother didn't truely, deep down, love her child. Why shouldn't she be expected to carry the child? If a mentally deficient person turned to religion to make them happy, and then somehow came upon some post of yours, or met you in person, he would be traumatised, saddened, might even kill himself. Should you be exterminated then?
Besides, as mentioned by someone else, rape victims make up a very very small amount of the abortions. It is more often someone who was sloppy with the contraception.

AGAIN ... The point of this post was WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT ABORTION...

Abortion = killing an innocent human beeing!

The 10 commandements say "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"...

i have nothing else to say. If there is anyone that needs to "excuse their guilty conscnience" for mudering innocent babies , well thats THEIR problem NOT MINE!

I answered the question, STRAIGHT SHOT.

now the funny thing is people answering this thread complain that Christian IMPOSE their ANTI- abortion views, yet the SAME COMPLANING PEOPLE, FORCE THEIR VIEWS down everyone's throat and IMPOSE thei view of HOW GOOD ABORTION IS...

well, if anyone around here thinks that flushing a baby with salt and scraping a womans woomb untill the burned baby falls out is good, than i PITTY YOU ... very very much.

In fact many so called "liberal" commenters on this thread forget that even their precious JOHN KERRY claimed to believ LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION... there you go ...

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as to someone that claimed Islam does not call for the death of ALL INFIDELS, let me tell you...how many centuries of history and Islamic invasions has your country had ??? mine has had 250 years of Islamic invasions, plus lots and lots of "Infidel Hunting", so DONT TELL ME WHAT ISLAM CALLS FOR !

I know nowadays everyone is trying to please Muslims and say how lovelly and nice they are, and guess what ... im sure they are... there are NICE AND GOOD PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND IN EVERY RELIGION. But there are also PHYCOS that follow everything literally, and in order for someone to follow something literally IT HAS BE WRITTEN or it HAS TO HAVE BEEN SAID SOMEWHERE.

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"THOU SHALT NOT MURDER" thats the BIBLE AGAISNT ABORTION... deal with it. No need to fish for verses. Thats the main question on this thread.

Come, come now BaastetNoir, if you are going to judge a religion by what people who claim to be from that religion have done, then Christianity is most definitely the aggressor here. PEOPLE may have called for the death of "infidels", Islam did not.
Besides, I am sorry to say this, but you are contradicting yourself. No idea where you are from, but if your country was under Islam for 250 years, and if Islam calls for death of infidels, wouldn't you be dead? Infact, your parents, parents, parents would be dead. Your very existence negates your statement. It's not written anywhere- I can tell you.
But I digress. This is the wrong thread. I encourage you to post your opinions here. I'd be happy to hear from you.

Very simple and a littler more to the point to bring the fact that the only part of the genitalia of men and women that Jake and radical bible thumpers want to regulate and bring the bible to use as law is the woman’s Uterus.

Taken in consideration that is part of the female body and something that belong to the female gender I will agree one hundred percent that my uterus and what I do with that part of my internal organs is my problem and not yours Jake, the politicians or religious pusher.

So if bringing the issue of murder and abortion means to designate the female organ "the uterus" as a separated entity for everybody to manipulate and to use against their rightful owners then I will tell you that will never work.

Now to make it fair, if the female organ uterus is to be regulated and put under "martial" law, I will expect that the same regulations will be applied to the male organ genitalia and should be also under law for been a lethal weapon than can kill women.

Now that is more fair than pushing the bible and personal moralistic views upon women’s internal organs.

Women by genetic design can use, allowed and terminated what grows inside their bodies and is not anybody else business.

So get once and for all be the end off all this ride of guiltiness upon women's right to decide what they do with their uterus is our uterus not yours.

Seem hypocritical that actually the only reason men are so aware of women genitalia are due to the fact that if is something that they want more than “salvation” and “redemption” is actually the control and manipulation of the female organs.

pity

Marg,

In matter of law, life always trumps liberty.

I didn't read pages 2 and 3 so I don't know if this verse was already posted.

Job 3:1 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

From this verse we find out life begins at conception.

DO YOUR DUTY TO DEFEND THE WEAK:
Can there be anyone weaker than an unborn baby? You have a duty to defend the weak, which you can do by speaking for them (not commiting violence): Psalm 82:3-4: 3Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. 4Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 31:8-9: 8"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.... 9... defend the rights of the poor and needy."

Originally posted by marg6043
The reason was not because they wanted to kill babies but as you know was to ensure that the strong ones had a better chance to survive.

In other worlds the weak was let to die alone.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty;

Abortions by any kindred, tribe or nation is not God's will.

In response to Junglejake...sorry for the wait.

To start off, I appreciate the fact that you responded to me with your own thoughts and heart rather than spewing out the typical christians rhetoric that you heard on sunday from pastor smith. Thinking on your own is very rare these days when it comes to religion. You know that to be true jj as well as I.

This is the one and only gripe I have with christianity, as well as all other organized religions. It really sint the belief in a god that bothers me even though it may seem that way. It is the lack of ones own mind. You know, whether you want to admit it or not, certain things are true. Men cannot walk on water without floatation devices, arks cannot be built to house every creature on earth, water does not instantly turn into wine. It is just the way things are. To believe in this, without skepticism on your own part is a horrible lack of judgement. Even if it is to be true, you do yourself an injustice by simply buying onto it because your pastor, parents, or bible says so.

I have to give you credit jj for at least admitting the serious and horrible contradiction that goes along with omnipotence and free will. A horrible contradiction that should very well shake the foundation of your christian beliefs. An allknowing god, creates people only to send them to hell with no choice. That is quite a scenerio to simply disregard because you think you love god.

In your explanation, god knows a path, as you put it. We do not have to follow it. Yet, our choices to not follow that path have already been compensated by god. And also the choices after that. And after that.

Just an example of why this is a non-issue. Let us say, that I built a small tunnel system for a mouse. Every 5 or so feet, there would be a "Y" in the tunnel. A choice for the mouse. (Also assume that the mouse cannot go backwards). So I build an elaborate system of choices with many, many possible outcomes. Let us also say that I have a preferred path through this system for no other reason but to make it comparable. I know all the possible choices of that mouse. I created those choices. However, I have no idea what that mouse will do. If I did know, it would only be because somehow, some way, I was forcing that mouse to make certain choices. (in other words that mouse had no choice). That mouse has free will, therefore I have no way of knowing where he will come out. I might know where he likely would come out, but thats no guarantee. I cannot be omnipotent as long as that mouse has free will. Not even omnipotent for the closed system of choices that I CREATED MYSELF.

Now, to further this response, and sorry its so long, I need to talk about deeper consequences of omnipotence. God knowing ahead of time...wow. Even if you give me the typical response that god is outside of time, there is still SERIOUS issues. If he is outside of time, looking in at all of time, then all of time must ALREADY EXIST. This is a fine possibility. It can be true, as long as our choices in time do not exist yet and he does not know them.

Originally posted by Seapeople


Christians, are ALL foolish.

This is your opinion but here is a truth:
Psalm 14:1a The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.

Originally posted by dbrandt

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty;

Abortions by any kindred, tribe or nation is not God's will.

Remember this is by bible beliefs standards, the God of Abraham was not the god of the rest of the world.

The belief of one God or monotheistic beliefs was not the only belief at the time or the most important one.

Reading historical account on ancient believes and costumes outside the narrow recount of bible text is still an important part of educating ourselves.

Beside the middle east where the bible stories came from other flourishing civilizations around the world had not clue of whom Abraham or his God was.

These civilizations also had their own established laws.

dbrant, you truly don’t believe that it was not other people around the world but the people in the bible, Right?

I am an avid reader of ancient history and that means historical facts not found in the bible.

Originally posted by jake1997

While searching on another topic, I came across this verse

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,
Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

Thanks.

Marge

Doesnt matter

While searching on another topic, I came across this verse

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,

Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?


We know you do not believe in Christ, nor agree with his followers.
That is not the point of this thread.

God knows our choices because he exists at all points in time at once. He has seen our choices, this does not mean he has made them for us.

If you've seen the Back to the future II, you will remember Old Biff gives the Sports Almanac from 2015 to himself in 1955, so that he becomes rich.

He had knowledge of the future, but he didn't choose it. The same applies with God, he knows all our choices but that does not mean he makes them for us.

Again Jake, trying to prove that the bible talks about abortion the answer is not it doesn't talk about abortion.

Your thread has not yield the results you wanted.

Originally posted by marg6043

Remember this is by bible beliefs standards, the God of Abraham was not the god of the rest of the world.

The belief of one God or monotheistic beliefs was not the only belief at the time or the most important one.

Beside the middle east where the bible stories came from other flourishing civilizations around the world had not clue of whom Abraham or his God was.

These civilizations also had their own established laws.

dbrant, you truly don’t believe that it was not other people around the world but the people in the bible, Right?

The Christian God is not the God of everyone in the world now or in times past, but the Christian God is the only real God there is, and as such the universe is His.

If there were people groups who had customs in which they killed babies already born or killed babies in the womb who were suspected to be weak or inferior so that sronger ones would dominate, that is still sin.

God tells us that creation testifies that there is a God. I don't know how much truth followed all these peoples after the dispersement at the Tower of Babel, but I'm guessing there was some.

Originally posted by babloyi
If it is not vengeance on the part of the victim, then what is it? Why should the victim dislike the child so much so as to abort it- just because the father was a rapist?

Even though I already explained.. it's about putting some sort of 'end' to her rape ordeal.. that would be a bit difficult with 'him' [his sperm] still inside her. I already said this.. a rape victim would be in no mental state to desire vengence.. she'd just want the result of the rape 'out'.. it's not hard to understand.. perhaps you should visit the rape surviver sites to get a better understandoing of what they go through. There is also the thing about 'free will'.. obviously you don't believe in that either.

It's funny.. despite all the prolifers here carrying on about what the bible says in regard to what happens with a person's body and who decides.. it is the gift of freewill that god supposedly granted to all people that has conveniently been ignored.

Jake,

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,

Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

That verse doesn't do anything for your argument either.. it doesn't actually say whether the spirit enters when the bones are formed or at conception.. what is does say is "you don't know" so claiming you do is technically going against the bible.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by jake1997
While searching on another topic, I came across this verse

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,

Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

My question is, do you know one? We're talking about direct meaning when considered in light of abortion right?

Not only is searching for Jesus in the OLD Testament about as fruitless as having him paged at a Republican National Convention, but searching for direct meaning to a concept not directly mentioned in a thousands of year old text is as ridiculous as drafting Deuteronomy to replace modern American legal code.

Here's your "context."

Ecc 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

Ecc 11:2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.

Ecc 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty [themselves] upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.

Ecc 11:4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap.

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Ecc 11:6 In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both [shall be] alike good.

Now, unless there's some mysterious bread throwing, 7/8ths distribution, meteorlogical and agricultural almanac component directly relating to abortion, this is pointless.

Unless this (also from Ecclesiastes) directly relates to abortion too...

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Which of course... who the hell knows?

If you want to specifically look for abortion in the Bible, look on how inconsequential the malicious killing of a fetus was...

Exodus 21:22

"When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

A fine? If the husband demands one? Makes sense I guess since "no harm follows." They did not think like neo-Christians then. In fact, I'm quite sure the idea of forcing a woman to birth an "enemy" or rapist's child was just as offensive then as it is now to non-crazy people.

When did all this "life at conception" idolatry happen anyway? Meat and bones born of unclean acts. That's all a fetus was (potentially still is) until God breathed life into it.

There's much more direct evidence that life begins at first breath my friend. Not bumping uglies.

Consider first, Genesis 2:7,

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

First, God forms Adam, he forms of dust, a flesh and blood body. SECOND, he "breathes into his nostrils the breath of life" and THEN man became a living soul. Man did not become a living soul when God first formed the IDEA of creating Adam, in Genesis 1:26. Man did not become a living soul when God created his BODY. Not until God gave man his first BREATH did he become a living soul. Life comes from God. It does not come from human conception. To believe that the entry of a sperm into an egg constitutes a human soul is blasphemy. To believe this is to eject God from the mystery of birth and put the power of the male ejaculation above the generative power of God. It is nothing less than idolatry, elevating the status of mere man, his sperm and his ejaculation above the power of God to give life.

The verses in Genesis are not the only verses in the Bible to make this clear. Consider Job 33:4

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Consider the story of Ezekial and the dry bones, Ezekial 37:1-6,

The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, thou knowest." Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause BREATH TO ENTER YOU, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and PUT BREATH IN YOU, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.' (emphases mine)

Just like Adam, who had a body before he had a soul, like every fetus in the womb, these dry bones were given sinew, flesh and skin, and AFTER they received the body GOD breathed into them and THEN they became alive. And, as in the verses above, because of that we "know that [God] is the Lord." Only God can bestow life and he tells us again and again in his word how this is done.

There is no trickery here. God does not breathe through an umbilical cord. We receive the breath of life, from God, through the nostrils, when we take our first breath. The concept of life beginning at birth, rather than conception, is so central to Christianity that we are "born again," not "conceived again."

Not that Pro-Choice Christians quoting scripture have any more sway with the modern world, but they do sufficiently muddy the waters for out-of-context anti-abortion Bible quoters as far as I've studied.

More Ecclesiastes just for fun...

(And here's a dancing banana to stare at for those covering ears going na na na na I can't hear you!)

In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements:

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

Clearly there is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is made even more clear in these following verses:

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Miscarriages better off? (Note the term had much wider meaning in that time. Not all "miscarriages" were accidental as the previosuly cited "fine" for 'forcible miscarriage' shows. And what of this better off is "the one who has never existed." Well I'll be damned! Guess you don't exist until you breathe huh?

[edit on 30-5-2005 by RANT]

Proverbs 6:16&17 These six things does the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, AND HANDS THAT SHED INOCENT BLOOD..............

So what is an example of innocent blood?

Psalm 106:37&38 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, and SHED INNOCENT BLOOD, EVEN THE BLOOD OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS,...........

Originally posted by riley
Even though I already explained.. it's about putting some sort of 'end' to her rape ordeal.. that would be a bit difficult with 'him' [his sperm] still inside her.

Really! I am sure you are very knowledeable about rape victims. Nine months after the event, the victim suddenly realises she isn't over with it, and wants an abortion. An unlikely scenario, sorry. If she wanted to "end the ordeal", she'd take some form of contraception

Originally posted by riley
I already said this.. a rape victim would be in no mental state to desire vengence.. she'd just want the result of the rape 'out'.. it's not hard to understand..

I was not suggesting that it is from a desire for vengeance. I was just using it as an example to show the ridiculousness of the notion that "If been you've been raped, abortion should be done". And please don't try teaching ME about rape psychology. I find it very unlikely that YOU have had enough experience in the matter to decide what must be done to ease the strain on the victim.

Originally posted by riley
There is also the thing about 'free will'.. obviously you don't believe in that either.
It's funny.. despite all the prolifers here carrying on about what the bible says in regard to what happens with a person's body and who decides.. it is the gift of freewill that god supposedly granted to all people that has conveniently been ignored.

Of course there is free will! I am completely free to go murdering all the children I want, but it still doesn't make it right.

I noticed that rant used a translation that says something entirely different then what I posted. Even so, the other verses should have been enough to keep things in the bibles view.

That said, I throw it all aside for dbrants post.

Thanks dbrant. If people still cannot see, then it is futile.

Just as it was futile to ....

Make a thread directed to CHRISTIANS, and ask them to post items from THEIR RELIGION.

As christians, we or our religion can be bashed and or insulted everywhere on the internet and ATS / BTS...so if we make a thread in the religion section that is an attempt to discuss what we believe as a group...why cant you people respect that?

If we post something out of place on another board, it gets moved here.
Want to bash the christian position on abortion? Make a new thread.
Better yet, make a religion melee forum and a religion discussion forum.
One is a war zone the other is not.