Question for Christains. Abrotion and the bible

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by djohnsto77
*EDITED FOR CHILDISH REMARK*

If your god "knew you" before you were conceived as is stated above, there are several consequences. All of which are contradictory to your misguided, and frankly uneducated thoughts and beliefs.

If god knows when you will be concieved, that means you must be concieved. Leaving the possibilty of choice out of the question for the parents. ...

Your quote above clearly shows a great misunderstanding of Christian thought and faith.

The biblical quotes all refer to the fact that God is omniscient; He knows the end from the beginning. If someone elects to use anti-conception aids which prevent conception then God is obviously not talking to them, is he?

Also, God is referring to knowing all about us from conception, ie; before an
abortion could be performed which shows that according to the bible and
Christian belief, life begins at conception, not at birth. Also the life at conception posseses a soul and if that life is aborted before birth then that
soul goes to be with God.

God gives everyone a free will; to believe or not believe, to honor life or
not. So, please, stop making hurtfull remarks w/o first knowing what you are talking about. It's fine to disagree with anothers' opinion or beliefs,
even mine; it's not ok to trash or belittle them.

Amuk, why don't you get a little courage and stand up for what you believe in??? You are a coward. Afraid of public opinion. Afraid of life. You are exactly what bothers me. You choose to deny yourself the right to oppinion because you are AFRAID of the consequences.

If a group of people are acting like fools, and consequently being a drag on an entire society, then say so. You have said so to me before in private U2U. But you fear public opinion.

Christians, muslims, and people of any major religion with similar guidelines are ALL foolish. You know it, and so do I. The fact that you are afraid to be up front and open with your thoughts is a clear indication of a horrible lack of self confidence. In all honesty, this lack of self confidence is probably the driving force for your status as a "moderator" in this digital world. Its a lot easier to push around people you arent truly looking at than it is in reality. Trust me, in reality, I have no fear of telling people the truth.

Being politically correct is being a coward. It is being afraid. You are a coward, and you are afraid. A follower just like the rest.

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by jake1997
The christian God tells us the baby is alive in the womb. Its a baby. I dont care if you call it spring cleaning...its still murder.
Its aborting the life
Its terminating the life

The only reason they use such terms is to hide the evilness of it all.

Pregnancy is a devolping fetus in a woman's body- it needs her to survive.. you're just trivialising the woman's situation by sidestepping this fact. I'd personally find it pretty evil for some stranger to force themselves into a rape victim's life and start ordering her to keep a rape pregnancy.. what.. should she be locked up for the duration till the kid is born? :shk: Yep.. thats moral.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by jake1997
The christian God tells us the baby is alive in the womb. Its a baby. I dont care if you call it spring cleaning...its still murder.
Its aborting the life
Its terminating the life

The only reason they use such terms is to hide the evilness of it all.

Pregnancy is a devolping fetus in a woman's body- it needs her to survive.. you're just trivialising the woman's situation by sidestepping this fact. I'd personally find it pretty evil for some stranger to force themselves into a rape victim's life and start ordering her to keep a rape pregnancy.. what.. should she be locked up for the duration till the kid is born? :shk: Yep.. thats moral.

Oh...Im sorry. Are 99% of abortions because of rape? Or is that actually the minority of cases?

Originally posted by Seapeople


Christians, muslims, and people of any major religion with similar guidelines are ALL foolish. You know it, and so do I. The fact that you are afraid to be up front and open with your thoughts is a clear indication of a horrible lack of self confidence. In all honesty, this lack of self confidence is probably the driving force for your status as a "moderator" in this digital world. Its a lot easier to push around people you arent truly looking at than it is in reality. Trust me, in reality, I have no fear of telling people the truth.

I'm sorry its foolish for the REAL people who follow the relgions to atually care about other people. But I live to serve and if I;m a fool in love with humanity and helping others than a fool I will stay. If you ever needed anything in a good cause I would drop all and help.

And as for the intital subject all the infant bible quotes I know have already been stated.

Originally posted by jake1997
Oh...Im sorry. Are 99% of abortions because of rape? Or is that actually the minority of cases?

Hmm.. you conveniently sidestepped that point as well.
I'm certain the stats would be over 1%.. I personally know two women who have been in that situation [one via her step father].. in saying that your point is not really relevent as these women need their welfare taken care of irrospective of why other women have abortions [they shouldn't be judged either].. or would you rather corner rape victims into going to backyarders as well? Their plights are apparently expendable to you.

Seems you think that abortion is a symptom of 'sluttiness'? Am I right? How often do you see on telly a guy saying 'no' to sex?
What does the bible say about men getting women pregnant and taking off without providing for them leaving them with no options? Hang on.. it's full of concubines and women being treated as property.. it condones it.

'Spilling seed' also has it's consequences.. why is this never an issue?

[edit on 28-5-2005 by riley]

The bible is clear.

It says the baby is a God made Life, in the womb. If you want to make rules as to when those can be murdered, thats up to you. I wont.

The bible says that those living in sin are going to be judged.
It also says that those who have sinned, can avoid the judgment by being sorry for what they have done and asking forgivness in the name of Jesus Christ.

That is the route that I will focus on. It is all that matters.

Originally posted by jake1997
The bible is clear.

It says the baby is a God made Life, in the womb. If you want to make rules as to when those can be murdered, thats up to you. I wont.

I do not agree that it is murder.. aside from it being a fetus and not a developed person.. that would be casting a judgement on another's person's motives.. I would also not impose moral 'rules' on women's bodies.

The bible says that those living in sin are going to be judged.
It also says that those who have sinned, can avoid the judgment by being sorry for what they have done and asking forgivness in the name of Jesus Christ.

That is the route that I will focus on. It is all that matters.

Of course it is.. that is the third time you have avoided valid points.. strange.. you were more concerned about comparing abortion with ancient cults before.. what.. rape victims not a part of that evil cult?

[edit on 28-5-2005 by riley]

You wont impose morals because you have no standard. This concedes by default, the moral high ground, to those who have the bible.


I cant impose anything on anyone. I can warn you about the truth tho.

God says its life in the womb.
That is what I wanted to find out/establish here.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.

As for trying to make this a man-woman issue... there are women on both sides.

Hitler killed 12 million people
Stalin killed 20 million people

America has murdered over 40 million infants since 1973

Originally posted by jake1997
The bible is clear.

Yes it is, it states, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" In other words, DONT JUDGE PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE PLENTY IN YOUR LIFETIME TO BE JUDGED ON. judging is a sin.

The bible says that those living in sin are going to be judged.
It also says that those who have sinned, can avoid the judgment by being sorry for what they have done and asking forgivness in the name of Jesus Christ.

That is the route that I will focus on. It is all that matters.

what is the route you will focus on? being sorry and begging for forgivness every single day because you are judging people on weither or not they have the right to have an abortion? wiether abortions are right or not, again, JUDGING OTHERS IS A SIN! it is stated in the bible, it is said by Christ himself! by saying that these people or wrong and killers is judging them, SINNING.

and do not try to make a comeback by saying, "if someone killed someone, and then you called them a murderer, are you judging them?" no because: 1) you would be avoiding the point that i and many others have been trying to make, as you have many times now and, 2) it would not be judgment because judgment is difined as "the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation." if someone has been proved to murder someone then there is the consideration and diliberation (both of these mean, for those who dont kno what they mean, carful thought or thoughtfulness) in a trial in court which is very thoughtful, no abortion has gone to court yet, therefore, and im not saying that court is the only place that consideration and diliberation happens (but how many of you pro-lifers have sat in your room, thinking this over and over, for hours on end, looking at all possible outcomes and options? my bet is very few if any) it has not been proven as murder.

another comback you all might throw at me: "well your judging, your a sinner and yet your throwing the first stone." YOUR RIGHT! I AM THROWING THE FIRST STONE AND I AM A SINNER! by your standards, to me i am not, for i am not religious, i am, however, very learned in the ways of ALL religions, i have studied them for the past 4 years of my life. i also live the kind of life "Jesus" wanted us to, i am forgiving, i am understanding, i am usually un-judgmental, but when a person is so stuck on their opinion and wont hear other peoples i tend to get judgemental, disrespectful, and down right mad.

the people that believe that they can make other peoples decisions make me sick

last comback not to throw at me: "your trying to make other peoples decisions by telling them to stop judging." wrong again, i am not saying do not judge, by all means have your own opinion, but be open to others also (as Jesus was), another thing i am not saying is to stop judging, what im saying is that by judging you are also a sinner, and if you still want to "throw the first stone" by all means, go right ahead

Judging = Sinning

Light

Originally posted by jake1997
You wont impose morals because you have no standard.

Says the person who has no problem judgeing [as usual] the morality of someone over the internet. My pro choice stance [not pro-abortion] comes from not wanting to interfere with another person's liberties or condemn them as I do not have to walk in their shoes.. it is between them and their conscience/god [and gynachologist] and I respect that. That does not make me immoral. As for my moral standard.. I have strong princibles and I try obide by them without being a hypocrite.

This concedes by default, the moral high ground, to those who have the bible.

The bible does not equal morality.. and the tone of your posts certainly do nothing for your argument. Is that the only reason you call yourself 'christian'? .. so you can try stand on moral highground and look down on other people? Maybe you should think about that.. the meak shall inherit the earth.. not the self righteous.

I cant impose anything on anyone. I can warn you about the truth tho.

Actually you can.. when those who share the same opinions as you conspire to change laws that prevent women from making that choice.. no doubt you are for pro-life judges in your supreme court and hope the 'good old days' where women died with coathangers still inside them come back.

God says its life in the womb.
That is what I wanted to find out/establish here.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.

I do not have a problem with the christian/catholic rule.. so long as they do not demand that nonchristians follow it.

As for trying to make this a man-woman issue... there are women on both sides.

You can split a sperm between two women now? I asked what the bible obligates men to do when faced with an unwanted children and whether they are allowed to leave women in the lurch.. as always this subject has turned into a woman bashing session.

Hitler killed 12 million people
Stalin killed 20 million people

America has murdered over 40 million infants since 1973

Hitler and Stalin did that through malice.. assuming all women share the same motive is deliberate ignorance.

[edit on 28-5-2005 by riley]

then there we have it.

I stand on Gods word that the baby is alive, and
Thou shalt not kill


you stand on saying the baby is not alive
and you can kill if you want to

Now let me ask you this

Do you know any more bible verse that speak about abortion?

Originally posted by lightheaded55

Originally posted by jake1997
The bible is clear.

Yes it is, it states, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" In other words, DONT JUDGE PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE PLENTY IN YOUR LIFETIME TO BE JUDGED ON. judging is a sin.

While I completely agree with you [I see the virtue in living by this ethic].. he has a get out of jail free card/loophole for such emergencies which consists of posting up a proverb about judging a tree by it's fruit...

Originally posted by jake1997
then there we have it.

I stand on Gods word that the baby is alive, and
Thou shalt not kill

you stand on saying the baby is not alive
and you can kill if you want to

No I do not.. I believe [for myself] it is alive.. [though rape and deformity may be a different situation] I just think it is up to the individual woman to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy.

Now let me ask you this

Do you know any more bible verse that speak about abortion?

I remember god cursing women with barreness and miscarriage.. I will post up the passage later [providing I can find it].

[edit on 28-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by jake1997
You wont impose morals because you have no standard. This concedes by default, the moral high ground, to those who have the bible.

I see you are trying to make some controversy here with you own personal religious views, I disagree with you. I don't think your "moral high ground are better than mine or anybody that is pro choice.

I cant impose anything on anyone. I can warn you about the truth tho.

No you can not impose anything on anybody and warn what? what you interpretation of quotes in the bible that has nothing to do with abortion gives you?

I guess the warning is just on your own personal interpretation of righteousness. I dissagree with you also on this, perhaps my righteousness is the right one and yours are the wrong ones.

God says its life in the womb.
That is what I wanted to find out/establish here.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.

As for trying to make this a man-woman issue... there are women on both sides.

Again using your own interpretation to push moralistic views twisting the bible writtings like most radical christian fundamentalist has done to justify their sick and twisted views of what is right for everybody.

America has murdered over 40 million infants since 1973

Yes you are right murdered "born children" every year in our nation, through abuse, rape and other sick kind of abuses, missing children millions of them never to be found, but you are fighting about unborn fetuses I guess you have not time to find the truth of our unwated already born and breathing children.

Kind of make your cause more believable. right?


You made this thread that is using your own brand of interpretations to push your own agenda.

Congratulations you are doing a great job. Jake.

I see you are trying to make some controversy here with you own personal religious views,

Umm..isnt this the place for it? Yes.
Didnt I start this thread in order to bring out what my religion says about this topic? Yes.

So why are you butting in to say Im wrong? You dont like my religion? Stay away.
If you dont like those views, then why harrass the people who do?

If your a christian, God says the baby is alive in the womb. Case closed.

Originally posted by jake1997
If you dont like those views, then why harrass the people who do?

If your a christian, God says the baby is alive in the womb. Case closed.

Hum . . . and you are also harassing the people that disagree with your views, also I never have heard God himself telling anybody anything, yet but I see you mere human doing the condemning.

God had never condemned anybody that had an abortion, I kind of see "people doing the condemning"

Jake if you don't like abortion don't have one, and let the "sinners" find out if your brand of God is the right one.

Telling you the truth if God was so mad about abortion he would have been here long time ago putting a plug in women uterus to stop the “baby killing”.

Originally posted by marg6043
It's nothing in the bible that condemn abortion or refer to abortion directly, but it's references in the bible about spilling men's seed as a sin.
[edit on 26-5-2005 by marg6043]

the 10 commandements condemn abortion..."THOU SHALT NOT MURDER", and abortion IS MURDER.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

the 10 commandements condemn abortion..."THOU SHALT NOT MURDER", and abortion IS MURDER.

Another human notion, I am waiting for the day in which the 10 commandments themselves miraculously appear in from national tv.

The “THOU SHALT NOT MURDER” is only taken into account in one sided situations, KILL THEE ENEMIES, if they don’t agree with your religion has been used through history in the name of the lord.

I regard the ten commandments as nothing more that an attempt to control masses by at the time of Moses time when his flock got out of control later bible redactors found the Moses laws good for control.

Sorry I am not one to take the words of others without a prof just because somebody than die long before I was born decided to write it as the truth.

Beware every time you spill your see you are killing too and is a sin by bible standards.

Ten commandments look more like some of the words found in the Egyptian book of the death and occurs it should after all Moses grew up with the Egyptian influences.

Moralistic views by bible standards taken out of context as the truth, is something I don't bite into at all, taken in consideration that a bible is still a man-made book.

Kind of the perfect "God send" for radical Christians fundamentalist to play with, interpreted in their own image, dissected and pushed unto others as the law and the will of "God"

Actually the bible is a very simple book miss interpreted to pursue and push personal agendas.

Like abortion, anti homosexuality and gender and racial profiling.

It most be great to be able to hide behind the bible to justify everything we do in earth as long as in the name of the lord.

The problem with judging is . . . When it cannot be subjective. Your judgements are usually base on what your personal opinion is about what is right or wrong, perceptions, motives and understandings.

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judge”

Who is Supposed to Judge?
Judgement of sin is in the bible context and Christians believe something to be handle by God itself not by any human thinking that they are “Gods”.

The bible is used often by religious so call leaders to anoint themselves with the right to judge others and to claim that they have the right to do so.

And under that assumption many under false pretenses of God power commit more murder and death in this world.

Making the “YOU SHOULD NOT KILL” meaningless and empty.

Wake up and see reality of what so call judges of man in the name of the lord of the bible are doing in our country with their own brand of judgement.