Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by zman
Cult according to Merriam-Webster online m-w.com... .

: Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Clearly, by this definition (particularly #1, #2), any religion would also be a "cult". This is a very broad definition that shows five possible uses of the word "cult". For a real understanding of the difference between a "cult" with the modern negative connotations (i.e. the "Moonies") and a "sect", I suggest you look at the article I suggested earlier ("Conceptualizing 'Cult' and 'Sect'", University of Virginia, religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu...)

So are you saying that a group like the "Moonies" (well known to be a real cult) is the same as a group like the Freemasons? If both are cults, then your answer must be yes. Think carefully!

Originally posted by JustMe74
Clearly, by this definition (particularly #1, #2), any religion would also be a "cult". This is a very broad definition that shows five possible uses of the word "cult".

His definition of a cult left out some very important aspects of true cults, including the fact that members are not free to believe in what they wish, are discouraged from associating with people outside of the cult, and are not free to leave as they wish.

I posted a link to a page that gives 21 undisputable reasons why Freemasonry cannot possibly be a cult, and zman simply ignored it. It's real convenient to simply ignore a document which completely debunks all of your claims. I really do wish he would address the 21 facts listed on this page, so I will post the link again for his benefit:

www.masonicinfo.com...

I particularly liked this one:

from www.masonicinfo.com...

Rational behavior is valued in Freemasonry. Cults stultify members' critical thinking abilities and capacity for rational, independent thinking; normal thought processes are stifled and broken (somewhat like the manner of actions of those who make the charge that Freemasons are cultists!).

Good stuff there, as always with the info on Ed King's site. I can't imagine why zman has nothing to say about that!


[edit on 5/27/05 by The Axeman]

I will readily admit that some freemasons fall short of the mark. However my guess is that fewer freemasons per thousand are 'bad' compared to the equivalent figure in the general population. That's not provable, of course, before anyone asks me to... that's my opinion based on the content of the program they follow.

I think that was about as well put as ya can get. I think even the most well researched Secret Soceity and Conspiracy writers will conclude that at least in the modern day, there really isnt much sinister or of interest(least ot th epublic) about FreeMasonry. People really want their to be, it's one of those wishful thinking ones.

What people may get confused by...is that perhaps the degree system, symbology, and order aspect has been perverted or used for bad things by some individuals. Perhaps that is what people think of when they think of all this NEw World Order or historical conspriacy thing.

Regardless, any negative actions committed by masons in the past were not done on behalf of the fraternity. Masons are husbands, fathers, employees and citizens first, MASONS LAST.

Well that was my point...I think because a lot of freemasons dismiss or downplay members involvements in very bad things it makes it look consiratory. And by high ranking I simply mean to an outsider someone of a higher degree, a long standing member if you will.

And for the love of goodness, FreeMason to me is not a religion, but an order.
Didnt Fred Flintstone belong to one?

Originally posted by Golfie
I personally believe that the bombings of Japan had no ties to Truman's involvement with Masonry.

Oh I agree, I was just saying that because people of high positions who do very bad things were Masons, doesnt mean the group is bad. A lot of people believe Jack the Ripper was a Mason and supported by some Masons...again, a few bad apples shouldnt taint the overall. We know a lot of Catholic Priests are pedophiles, but that doesnt mean Catholocism is neccesarily bad or that a majority of priests are like that.

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by 8bitagent
Truman was behind ... The murder of 800,000 Japanese civilians

I was referring to all the bombings of Japanese civilians, on the bloodied hands of Truman, Macnamara, and all throughout the millitary complex. As well as the fallout years later from these things. Sadly in the US noone ever brings up this...Hitler killed millions of people, but the US killed close to a million innocent civilians in WW2. The documentary Fog of War hosted by Macnamara himself is a great look at what happened.

As for my comment about Freemasonry an enemy of the "NWO"(assuming ya believe in such)...conspiracy theorists will say the charity aspect of FreeMasonry is just a front. But c'mon...an organization doesnt raise the money it does for tragedies(like say 9/11) or local relief and spend so much time doing so if they are somehow a part of an evil conspiracy.

As for Jim Shaw and others, obviously he has a slant, so Im not sure what he said was actuality.

Originally posted by 8bitagent
I was referring to all the bombings of Japanese civilians, on the bloodied hands of Truman, Macnamara, and all throughout the millitary complex. As well as the fallout years later from these things. Sadly in the US noone ever brings up this...Hitler killed millions of people, but the US killed close to a million innocent civilians in

And you fail to bring up the fact that even japanese civilians were told to kill Americans every chance they got. Villagers acted as suicide bombers, used children as human bombs, and all had a "take as many as we can down with us" attitude! We bombed them the way we did to protect ourselves from needless casualties by the japanese's brutal and suicidal tactics.

Originally posted by 8bitagentAs for Jim Shaw and others, obviously he has a slant, so Im not sure what he said was actuality.

The problem with Jim Shaw's testimony is that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he did not receive the 33rd degree. If he lied about that, then what else did he lie about?

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by 8bitagentAs for Jim Shaw and others, obviously he has a slant, so Im not sure what he said was actuality.

The problem with Jim Shaw's testimony is that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he did not receive the 33rd degree. If he lied about that, then what else did he lie about?

Yes, it would appear the modern conspiracy is how the anti Mason crowd
likes to composite a myriad of fantasy.

I am neither for or against Masonry, I say if it helps enrich some males lives(like religion helps people in their own lives) well there you go. I will admit, as an avid sci fi and historical reader, I do enjoy the more fanciful conspiracy theorist literature. However, I can seperate fact from fiction. Where does the line end with some people?

Just to add my $0.02 worth:

Concerning "cults", I suppose it depends upon how one defines the term. In modern usage, it tends to denote a group or group that deviate(s) from the norm.

For example, Christianity began as a Jewish cult, Buddhism as a Hindu cult, etc. Non-religious organizations can also be cults under this definition, e.g., The Communist Party under Stalin as a Marxist cult.

In this modern sense, if we consider Freemasonry the norm, it cannot possibly be a cult. However, we could possibly label organizations which have taken Freemasonry as a model, but deviated from it. Examples could include Ordo Templi Orientis, Co-Masonry, and, from a more sinister perspective, P2 Lodge.

Here's a real cult for ya, fellers...

zman, THIS is a cult. Pay attention to the marked differences...

www.xenu.net...

Oh and be sure to check out the CONTRACT.

A BILLION years is a bit much, don't you think?!



[edit on 5/28/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by 8bitagentI will admit, as an avid sci fi and historical reader, I do enjoy the more fanciful conspiracy theorist literature. However, I can seperate fact from fiction. Where does the line end with some people?

[comes out of closet, wearing phaser belt and communication pin]

Yeah... well... OK, I think there are quite a few sci-fi fans around - I'm certainly one of them. There isn't much sci-fi I dont like, and being brought up on Moorcock, Asimov, EE 'Doc' Smith and Heinlein (to name but a few) given one a sense of 'future possibilities'. I'd love it to be true, but that don't neccesarily make it true. When one confuses wishful thinking with real life then the troubles begin.

I do think conspiracies exist and I have my suspicions about a couple of international events. But nothing like in the numbers that some people believe. Now if you don't mind I have to go attend to my warp drive.

Originally posted by Trinityman
I do think conspiracies exist and I have my suspicions about a couple of international events. But nothing like in the numbers that some people believe. Now if you don't mind I have to go attend to my warp drive.

Conspiracy theory is mostly ALL about fantasy. Fact and logic competing against the imagination of people who have WAY too much time to dedicate to such a thing. The possibilities are endless and that is why these conspiracy theorists are so good at convincing themselves that these conspiracies actually exist. Imagination is a powerful tool, and it's easy to see hidden meanings and intentions in ANYTHING if you are looking for them.

But, like you said: the difference between conspiracy theorists and the rest of us is that a theorist's imagination gets the best of him, and their refusal to understand that life is really quite boring, compared to the fantastic tales they conjure up, blurs the lines between reality and fiction.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Here's a real cult for ya, fellers...

zman, THIS is a cult. Pay attention to the marked differences...

...
A BILLION years is a bit much, don't you think?!

Scientology is the scARIEST cult that exists today. My best friend's cousin disappeared after she joined Scientology, couldnt pay for the lessons, and entered into an agreement (the same BILLION YEAR contract you posted). They convinced her that her family were "suppresive personalities" and forced her to discontinue contact with them.

We had to research the "church" when we were trying to help her parents locate her. Finally she showed up, tried to recruit everyone she could into the church, then disappeared again.

Now THAT is a cult.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Scientology is the scARIEST cult that exists today...

SHHHHHH! Don't tell Tom Cruise and John Travolta...

I have LR Hubbard's book, "Scientology", but I don't think I have ever even opened it. I probably will read it one of these days, just to see what kind of kraziness it contains, but it's not very high on the "to read" list.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Scientology is the scARIEST cult that exists today...

SHHHHHH! Don't tell Tom Cruise and John Travolta...

I have LR Hubbard's book, "Scientology", but I don't think I have ever even opened it. I probably will read it one of these days, just to see what kind of kraziness it contains, but it's not very high on the "to read" list.

Hehehe Tom Cruise is NUTS about that Scientoloy stuff. I heard a rumor that John Travolta has been wanting to get out of Scientology, but they have some dirt on him that they are blackmailing him with if he ever leaves. They are twisted people.

My parents had a copy of "Dianetics" in their large library, which I went through one time because I always saw those weird commercials on TV. It's silly silly stuff. Useless too.

Here in L.A. theres a pair of KROQ morning show shock jocks named Kevin and Bean, who one day per year, they have a "Scientology Bashing" day, where they spend the whole day's radio show on making fun of Scientology and taking calls from crazy Scientologists and tearing them to pieces. It's great stuff.

Conspiracy theory is mostly ALL about fantasy. Fact and logic competing against the imagination of people who have WAY too much time to dedicate to such a thing. The possibilities are endless and that is why these conspiracy theorists are so good at convincing themselves that these conspiracies actually exist. Imagination is a powerful tool, and it's easy to see hidden meanings and intentions in ANYTHING if you are looking for them.

I agree. What happens is there are real life nefarious conspiracies from people in power(banks, corporations, govenments) that take place, or brought to light from the past. The kind a lot of the public doesnt know, or doesnt want to believe. However, then the conspiracy theorist piles on all this coincidental, fringe speculative, and fan fiction psuedo truths on top of it.

Life doesnt need *any* exaggeration in my opinion. As far as cults...
my goofd friend is a Theology major, and he talks about the difference between American and European Crhistianity. In short, European Crhistianity seems to not be so rigid, whereas American Christianity(usually Protestant) seems to be black and white, the bible is word for word gospel, etc.
The Crhistian based conspiracy theorists loves to throw out the word Pagan, when its no secret quite a lot of Catholic/Western Christian tradition and lore pulls form a lot of Paganism. The word hypcracy comes to mind.

People think anything that isnt Christ related(Buddhism, Hindu, etc) is some how occult pagan related. How narrow minded is that?

then we find this anti Semetic grey area. I appreciate it when people who insist on conspiracy theories make a clear distinction between singling out Zionism(I do think the Rothchild mentality has tainted the modern Jewish tradition) and Judasicm and the race itself. But again, the "Zionists have taken over the world" seems to be a dangerous theme with a lot of folks.

What makes something a cult to me is blind absolutes; the denying family or friends if they dont subscribe to their views, and heavy personal thought control.

The anti Freemasonry exists perhaps simply because the main principles/architecture/order of Freemasonry has been ripped off from so many actually nefarious sects and secret societies that the distinction begins to blur. Also, people love to think theres a bunch of white gloved, apron wearing black suited guys comign together under a giant Dolalr Bill eye controlling world events. I mean, doesnt that sound more interesting than real life?

Originally posted by 8bitagent
The anti Freemasonry exists perhaps simply because the main principles/architecture/order of Freemasonry has been ripped off from so many actually nefarious sects and secret societies that the distinction begins to blur.

Ummmmmm... why do you believe this? The main principles of Freemasonry have been ripped off from nefarious sects and secret societies? Such as? This is indeed a false statement, and I don't understand why anyone would claim this.

Freemasonry is ancient, and nobody knows where Freemasonry started or how, nor where its precepts and teachings formed from.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasonry is ancient, and nobody knows where Freemasonry started or how, nor where its precepts and teachings formed from.

As a Freemason, you should know that history pretty well, right?

My understanding is that there have been men who used Freemasonry as a perfect cover to pass on hidden plans or agendas with like-minded high-ranking members, particularly in the 32nd and 33rd degrees ring over the past 2 centuries. On the surface, Freemasonry is everything what the public perceived in with various interpretations and speculations percolating over the years. But inside, Freemasonry's rituals and practices are only what members perceived in something the public doesn't need to know. However, there were men who attained higher levels of Freemasonry and participated in secrecy with plans or agendas for all of mankind while using the secretive cloak of Freemasonry (a perfect cover). Their intentions were made for either good or bad reasons.

My friend knows something about Freemasonry pretty well and he dared to call it an obvious cult, in his opinion.

Originally posted by the_oleneo
As a Freemason, you should know that history pretty well, right?

Nobody knows. Just about all records prior to 1717 have been lost, so nobody knows FOR SURE how the fraternity came to be.

My understanding is that there have been men who used Freemasonry as a perfect cover to pass on hidden plans or agendas with like-minded high-ranking members, particularly in the 32nd and 33rd degrees ring over the past 2 centuries.

That is a conspiracy theorist MYTH, and there has never been ANY evidence to suggest this. Freemasons will tell you it's simply not possible, because the structure of Freemasonry is not one where people with higher degrees can do anything they want without anyone else seeing it. A degree in Freemasonry does not denote position, rank or authority. And there is definitely NO secrets kept from one degree to another.

However, there were men who attained higher levels of Freemasonry and participated in secrecy with plans or agendas for all of mankind while using the secretive cloak of Freemasonry (a perfect cover).

This is absolutely false, and nobody can give even one example of a person who has done such a thing. Freemasonry is not "the perfect cover" because it really is not that secretive, and also because there are too many people to answer to within the fraternity. INSIDE the fraternity, there is a HUGE system of checks and balances, where all actions, minutes, etc. are available for all members to see. This is simply not possible, and if you doubt it I invite you to become a Freemason and see for yourself.

My friend knows something about Freemasonry pretty well and he dared to call it an obvious cult, in his opinion.

It is nothing like a cult. Here is a site that gives 21 important reasons why Freemasonry cannot be considered a cult:

www.masonicinfo.com/cult.htm

Anti-masons like to accuse Freemasonry of many things, but their claims have never been able to stand up to the scrutiny of evidence.


[edit on 29-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by the_oleneo

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasonry is ancient, and nobody knows where Freemasonry started or how, nor where its precepts and teachings formed from.

As a Freemason, you should know that history pretty well, right?

My understanding is that there have been men who used Freemasonry as a perfect cover to pass on hidden plans or agendas with like-minded high-ranking members, particularly in the 32nd and 33rd degrees ring over the past 2 centuries. On the surface, Freemasonry is everything what the public perceived in with various interpretations and speculations percolating over the years. But inside, Freemasonry's rituals and practices are only what members perceived in something the public doesn't need to know. However, there were men who attained higher levels of Freemasonry and participated in secrecy with plans or agendas for all of mankind while using the secretive cloak of Freemasonry (a perfect cover). Their intentions were made for either good or bad reasons.

My friend knows something about Freemasonry pretty well and he dared to call it an obvious cult, in his opinion.

Exactly...I do not think it is even remotely a stretch what you just stated.
To deny it, is akin to say a Catholic priest has never done anything bad.
The problem here, is damning a whole group, sect, etc because of th ebad deeds of members.

To say the principles, rituals, and concept of aspects of Freemasonry has not been used for not so good things over the years is definately incorrect.

And one definately should know the history of their group, order, religion, etc they belong to. I encourage Christians to study up on Sumerian culture and alternative interpretations of the Bible, for instance(not saying Masonry is a religion...but it is an associative thing)

When one says absolutely everthing is false, made up, etc about Mason's dealings with bad things; it adds fuel to the anti Mason fire. No group or body is unfallible, even from the deepest levels of corruption.

Originally posted by 8bitagent
To say the principles, rituals, and concept of aspects of Freemasonry has not been used for not so good things over the years is definately incorrect.

How come you have not answered my question in my last reply to your post? I asked you for examples of what you have claimed, and I ask you for the same of your claim above. If it indeed IS incorrect, can you please demonstrate what makes it so?

And one definately should know the history of their group, order, religion, etc they belong to.

That would be nice, if the history were available for research. Like I've stated before, NOBODY knows where Freemasonry originated, because records have been lost over time. The only history ANY masonic historians are sure of is post 1717 history, ie: modern Freemasonry.