Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

An Oath should be taken seriously. That is the purpos of them, I have never had any reason to regret the oaths I took in masonry, nor have I met anyone with a problem from them. That includes a couple of ex-masons I know well, well enough to ask and get an honest answer from.

None of them left because of the oath, two for releious reasons. (one converted to Mormonism which forbids masonic membership, one because of fundamentalist conversion and new pier pressure.)

The other due to pressure from his wife who got upset with the male only requirement and "boys night out". (some how I keep missing the dancing girls)

But none had or have conflicts with anything in the oath. By the way the man who gave me my pattition was a fundamentalist minister (not mine by the way.) (Not even of the same division of chrisianity)

What is this fundamentalist conversion that you are talking about?
Is a marriage status imoportant?
Whats with the Mormons?

Thnx for info

[edit on 26-5-2005 by yanchek]

Well, maybe some day I will. It's the oath thing that bothers me. Once youn take it t's too late (and I take oaths very seriously). And of course a shady mason past.

[edit on 26-5-2005 by yanchek]

That's the thing we as Masons take our oaths seriously too.

But as for it being too late after you take the oaths? Nope, if you *were* to petition a Lodge, go through the degrees and later find that it wasn't you cup of tea you can demit. As long as you are in good standing (dues paid up etc) you can request a demit. This allows you to leave the Craft in "good standing". So if you were to ever change your mind and wish to join again, you would be allowed to repetition for membership.

Or, if you were so inclined, you could just stop paying dues. This however causes you to leave in "bad standing" and could hinder you rejoining the Fraternity if you ever chose to do so.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
If the Masons have nothing to hide than so be it.
You just might find the truth !!

I started to respond to this post, but when I noticed that you couldn't even spell Masonry correctly, it became obvious that you know nothing about it and are, therefore, unqualified to comment on it.

My best!

Originally posted by yanchek
I agree Thuth-man. When something is too good to be true, it usualy is.

Ol' Thuth-man knows his stuff, doesn't he?

Masons like to state that fremasonry will make a good man better. Why?

Why?! Because it's true. That's why we state it.

If I'm good, there is no point to make me better.

That's entirely up to you. If you don't want to be better than you are and are happy the way you are...fine. We don't force ANYONE!

I don't need to take an oath of any kind, join some fraternity, or follow some mistic simbols or stories.

That's fine too. Don't join Masonry. If you don't wish to be better than you are, we don't want you anyway.

In my mandate in this life, I just want to do as littlle harm as possible.

That's good. Really.

One member of ATS said it well when he was talking about degrees of jihad. The ultimate jihad is jihad with thy self.

Uhm...OK. Whatever thou sayest.

And yes, every organisation of any kind needs to be questioned.

Question all you like. If your questions be for worthy reasons, they will be answered. If they are out of mere curiosity, they will fall upon deaf ears.

Be well.

Originally posted by yanchek
Every organisation have to sign itself up in a register. And every register is a public book.

Nope. Private registers are PRIVATE books.

Therefore as a cityzen, I have every right to pose questions to any organization of my choosing.

True. And those organizations have a right to deny you a response if they choose.

Some would say It's not my problem. Well, I guess I'm making it my problem.

I guess that's right. Nosiness is a real problem. Too bad it won't get you any legitimate answers.

Senrak,

you sure are in "snippy" mood tonight.

Now isn't that mean and nasty.

Cheers

[edit on 26-5-2005 by yanchek]

Originally posted by yanchek
Senrak,

you sure are in "snippy" mode tonight.

Now isn't that mean and nasty.

Cheers

Aw yanchek,

I don't mean to be. I just tend to speak my mind. As you can tell from my posts (recent ones and older ones as well) I'm zealous for Freemasonry...and it isn't because I've been "hoodwinked" either. I KNOW some stuff about it.

Regards

Originally posted by senrak
Aw yanchek,

I don't mean to be. I just tend to speak my mind. As you can tell from my posts (recent ones and older ones as well) I'm zealous for Freemasonry...and it isn't because I've been "hoodwinked" either. I KNOW some stuff about it.

Regards

I know, I know. Just doing your part. No harm done.

Greetings and salutations

Originally posted by yanchek

Originally posted by Masonic Student
Yanchek,

There is one sure way to find out what you want to know. Patition the lodge for membership, and go through the dergees for yourself.

Well, maybe some day I will. It's the oath thing that bothers me. Once youn take it t's too late (and I take oaths very seriously). And of course a shady mason past.

You DO realize that you can demit from your lodge ANY TIME that you want right? Despite what MrNECROS will tell you, MANY masons realize that Freemasonry is not for them and demit. Nobody cares. A lodge certainly does not want members who don't want to be there.

By the way, in what country do you live?

I'm from Slovenia. Here's the link to Our Grand Lodge. Thank God that is in English too, so I'm spared the translation. You will find a short summary of freemason history in Slovenia and other stuff. Not one of greatest web pages I've seen dough. It definetly needs some redesign.

The Grand lodge of Slovenia

Cheers

[edit on 27-5-2005 by yanchek]

Back to the original topic, if you strip away all the conspiracy stuff, lies,
heresay, etc...there are still some troubling things about aspects of Freemasonry, however that are not unique to any one organization.

It could be the fact that people in power that did bad or questionable things were high ranking Masons. One of the biggest reasons Im sure Freemasonry is a buzz word with modern conspiracy theorists is Truman, who was once quoted as saying his greatest honor was being a 33rd degree Mason. This seems troubling, as Truman was behind some bad things(well, depending on who you are) The murder of 800,000 Japanese civilians, and the formation of the CIA and NSA adds to the link. Also, just the fact the higest ranking people were Masons would add to a big world conspriacy.

Of course some of the most brillaint minds were Masons, from classical composers to philosophical writers which discredits some of the negativity.
Although some Masons deny it, there is a brief Bavarian Illuminati influence or amalgamation in some European lodges in the 1700's.

Perhaps it is some of the 33rd initiation rituals in DC that a few might find unsettling. The question of racism I think is mute, given virtually every institution back in the day was segregated. Yes, the KKK might have been founded by a high rankign Mason, but again theres people who claim to be catholic that do very bad things.

As an outsider, these are just a few things I can see would add to the anti Mason fervor. However, some of the most insane and virulent talk has come from the anti Masonic crowd. If for arguments sake the Masons had a hand in wars or not so nice things in any way before, it appears that the organization is completely anathema to any such things today. I like to think of the big picture and be objective. I realize people believe there are some sinister things about Mason history, and yes I think its possible various lodges or high ranking Masons conspirated to commit or direct bad things. But in the current spectrum of things, it seems like the Masons are in their own way an enemy of this so called NWO people talk about.

Originally posted by 8bitagent
Truman was behind ... The murder of 800,000 Japanese civilians

Let me preface this by saying I am totally against the use of atomic weapons in any circumstance....

I assume you are referring to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in your message? The bombs killed (initally) about 100,000 people, not 800,000 (source: en.wikipedia.org...).

Just to put it in perspective for you, the carpet bombing of Tokyo the week before killed over 200,000 people. So, while the destruction of those cities was horrible, it probably ended up saving many lives in the long run.

I personally believe that the bombings of Japan had no ties to Truman's involvement with Masonry. He was the President of the United States at a time when practically the whole world was at war. Also, the US had (at that time) just experienced the worst attack on our home soil (an act of war). People of the time wanted vindication and revenge.

But to associate his use of force to his Masonic ties I think is a stretch. There were alot of circumstances that had a bearing on his descions, but I don't think Masonry had any part of it.

Remember Masonry comes after God, Family, Duty to Country etc.

On Why I think Freemasonry is a Cult.

I will try to tell you why I think Freemasonry is a Cult. Now to do this you have to come with me, so take my hand and follow me. (For this is my thinking about what I see).

As we go down a main street of a town we notice a large building with geometric figures on it. Its really a nice looking building and looks well kept. We see a person who looks to us as an upstanding citizen. We ask him about the building and about the geometric figures that are on it. He starts by asking us what we know about such things as the symbols that are noticeable on the building as if he where trying to see what we know about their organization. So we talk about what the symbols mean and he asked us if we have read the bible, and of course we say we have. He starts to tell us a tale about building Solomon’s temple and laying a corner stone. We wanting to know more as we listen to his story ask him about his organization and how we can learn more. He tells us that we MUST become members and tells us if we would like to find out how to become a member to come back later tonight. (Now most of the Masonic members know that they tell you to bring something with you when you come to there place to become a member). So we talk about meeting here tonight as the nice gentleman asked bringing along what he told us to bring with us. Wow we thought this is so cool, we get to become members and learn about their organization. (You have to understand that I have had family members who when alive where Masons, also I have had many friends who where and maybe still are Masons, so to those who do not understand what is happening here I will make us not knowing and wanting to learn about this place). So we not knowing anything about Masons come to the door at night and enter. We are greeted by a member of there fraternity and instructed on what we must do to become a member. We being banded together and wanting to understand about them , chose to do what he instructed us to. ( before we go further into this story lets talk about what has happened so far. )

Ok , we saw this building with symbols on it. We met a member. The member told us to know more about them we had to become a member. He told us they are the builders of Solomon’s temple or at least laid the corner stone. Told us to bring something with us and to come back at night.

Lets look at the word Cult ok.

Cult according to Merriam-Webster online m-w.com... .

: Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Ok , hmmm , a system of religious beliefs and ritual. I have not even stepped into the door and I was asked if we read the bible ( a religious document ) I was told to bring something with me. ( hmm , ritual rites ) .. The gentleman asked me about Solomon’s temple. Told me his organization has laid the corner stone. Ok to understand and I actually had to open up a King James Version and look under Solomon’s Temple. Ok so I looked up in the back of that bible and it told me to go to 1 Kings 6-7 , here I did not find any reference to Freemasons or about any one building, The Temple but Solomon. So I looked under the word Stone , and again I did not see any reference to Freemasons. Ok , he mentioned corner stone , ok I will look that up . Nope still no reference to Freemasons. I am now thinking he must be using a different version or one I do not know about. Ok , now I am really curious . So I looked up the word Mason. Nope its not in there either.. Ok , there must be some reference somewhere to what this person had told us. Not having any resources available to me quickly as I want to answer this post with why I think it’s a cult I go to the Internet. www.abovetopsecret.com... pops up as a link. Ok , its given me something to look at and it gives reference to Jesus as the corner stone that the builders ( oh I get it Masons = builders ) had rejected. So Jesus is the chief corner stone that the Jews had rejected. Wow , now I am really curious now , I thought the person mentioned that they are not a religion. But gives a reference to Jesus as the chief corner stone as Jesus says he was in Mathew. Still it does not give me any reference to what passage this belongs to so I google some more and find www.shepherds-rod-message.org... , giving me a point to go to , Man this guy is making me work to find this stuff out. It tells me of passages at PS. 118:22,23; DA 597-598. Ok , great I go to PS 118 lines 22 and 23 . 22 says in the KING JAMES VERSION – The Stone of which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner ..Wow the Masons rejected a stone that became a corner stone of the corner.. 23. Tells us this is the Lords doing , it is marvelous in our eyes. So the Lord according to this passage PS. 23 is making the Masons do this ? .Ok Now I am really confused .. the Masons rejected the stone and the Lord says he made them do it and somehow Jesus says he is that corner stone that the builders rejected. Man why all this reference to religion if they are not a religion. Now I am really curious on what they are going to tell me when I get inside and become a member.

So now inside and they have us blindfolded ( huh , I can’t see , blindfolded … what the .. what are they going to do to me .. what am I getting into .. is going through my mind and I can imagine the mind of my friends who are with me . ) . Ok this must be the ritual they have every member go through , hmmm did not cult say ritual . Ok I pass these rituals and I am then told that to understand what they are about I MUST read from the library and enlighten myself to what they offer . Man lets look at the word cult again ..

Cult according to Merriam-Webster online m-w.com... .

: Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Ok , I went through a ritual , having listen and had to endure religious beliefs , told I had to read these books to enlighten myself. , hmmm devotion to other peoples writings , lots of different objects to learn about and to have devotion to. Now I am wondering , why they said it was not a religion. Devotion , enlighten , and religious matterial I have to learn. So what I get is that they rejected the stone (Jesus) and the lord made them do it. Ok , ok .. so if they reject Jesus , who do they look at as divine. Hey, there is a reference of a White angel of light. Hmm , now I have to look this up as well… wow , according to the bible the reference is Satan ..he is listed as a beautiful angel white light. So I get it they reject Jesus and follow Satan , is that what they are telling me. So ok , they are a religious order , devoting themselves to Satan and having all these rituals to perform. Well you wonder why I think that Freemasons are cult members , now I have shown you why I have thought this. Please explain why you are not a cult. Again , many blessings.

Originally posted by zman
On Why I think Freemasonry *SNIP*

An inherently flawed supposition.

The anecdotal convenience of you brush with Freemasonry defies any grounding in fact. I know it is a fictional attempt to prove your point, but without a shred of reality, pointless is the order of the day.

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it aligned with ANY religion. It is independent of all, yet requires belief in a supreme being. No Mason would approach a conversation with specific religious overtones, especially in the setting you contrived.

The repeated use of the definition of the word "cult" disarms your argument more. The first (and therefore most appropriate) definition is: "1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP." I couldn't agree more. The problem is that there is no "WORSHIP" in Masonic ritual, there may be a Bible, or a copy of the Koran, and any number of other sacred texts present, and prayer may be invoked, but there is no singular, direct worship. Freemasonry is NOT a religion, or even religious.

To continue with the myriad of other fundamental flaws: Recruitment (which is not allowed under most U.S. Grand Lodges). Failure to understand that there is a petitioning process (you can’t just walk in off the street). The misconception that you should “bring something?” I shudder to think where you got that, you are actually divested of everything. The reoccurring Christian Fundamentalism (which fits nicely into your oft repeated definition) that seems to permeate you “story.” Is this the “root” of your misconception? The last question is rhetorical, I don’t care, my only point (which unlike yours, was made ) is how inaccurate and the foundation of your argument is, and therefore, your premise that Freemasonry is a cult is incorrect.

Deconstructing Monkeys, not just for shooting holes in theories anymore…




[edit on 27/5/2005 by Mirthful Me]

On why I think Freemasonry isn't a cult

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP

No worship takes place within a masonic temple. the closest we get to it is prayers.

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

Freemasonry is a system of morality based on lessons taught in the Bible. Freemasonry has no religious beliefs of its own. It can't have, as it insists members have their own beliefs before they join and that they keep them.

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

Freemasonry is not a religion.
It offers no sacrements and no salvation.
It has no clergy, no dogma, no litergy.
It insists it is not a religion, indeed all members must be believers of their own faith and continue in that belief as freemasons.
Religious discussion is banned within freemasonry

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator ealth cults>

Membership of freemasonry will not cure any known disease

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Freemasonry is not a fad, it is several hundred years old.
Freemasonry is not comprised of a small group of people - there are estimated to be several million members in the US alone

Freemasonry can be described as many things, but I don't think cult is one of them. The sheer numbers involved alone eliminate it as a contender

Originally posted by 8bitagent
Back to the original topic, if you strip away all the conspiracy stuff, lies,
heresay, etc...there are still some troubling things about aspects of Freemasonry, however that are not unique to any one organization.

While I DO appreciate the even-handedness of your arguments, there are some flaws in your claims. First off, there are non such thing as "high-ranking" masons. The only people who have "rank" inn Freemasonry are the elected officers, that's all. Some masons may have higher DEGREES, but masonic degrees do not establish authority or position in any way.

Second, your claim that Truman is a big reason for all the conspiracies is also flawed. The fact that he killed many japanese (who killed more americans), and began the CIA (which was designed to PROTECT americans) is just more conspiracy theory BS, coming from people who cannot get a full peprspective of the situations which they criticize. And becoming a mason IS the biggest honor of my life, and probably most mason's lives as well.

Lastly, the KKK was not founded by Albert Pike, the "high-ranking" mason which you refer to. That is also a phony rumor started by someone, I'm not sure who. The first Grand Wizard (?) WAS a mason, but was promptly expelled from the fraternity as soon as the KKK took an ugly turn for the worst.

In any case, there are MANY other reasons why Freemasons exist in the conspiracy theory fantasy realm today, inncluding a popular hoax by an anti-mason in the 1800's.

Regardless, any negative actions committed by masons in the past were not done on behalf of the fraternity. Masons are husbands, fathers, employees and citizens first, MASONS LAST.



[edit on 27-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

8bitagent

Good post.

One of the things that some people forget is that there is a difference between freemasons and freemasonry.

Freemasons do lots of things when they are not acting as freemasons. For myself I am engaged in masonic activity about 10 hours a month so thats about 2% of the time. The other 98% of the time I sleep, go to work, spend time with my family, hobbies etc. Totally unrelated to freemasonry.

Freemasonry is a system, a blueprint, a process. It is dispassionate and has no opinion about anything non-masonic. It has (literally) no interest in the wider world. It is purely and simply concerned with empowering individuals to become better people - not better than other people, just better than they were.

I will readily admit that some freemasons fall short of the mark. However my guess is that fewer freemasons per thousand are 'bad' compared to the equivalent figure in the general population. That's not provable, of course, before anyone asks me to... that's my opinion based on the content of the program they follow.

A few things: First let me say I respect your position and you seem to be a fair and open minded individual, trying to balance the ideas and come to your own conclusions. That, I think, is what this place is all about and I commend you for it.

With that being said...

Originally posted by 8bitagent
One of the biggest reasons Im sure Freemasonry is a buzz word with modern conspiracy theorists is Truman, who was once quoted as saying his greatest honor was being a 33rd degree Mason. This seems troubling, as Truman was behind some bad things(well, depending on who you are) The murder of 800,000 Japanese civilians...

I think your numbers are a bit off, and this topic has been discussed here before. No matter though; the point I wasnt to make is that the US (and indeed the whole world) was at war. Do you have any idea how many lives were probably saved in the long run by dropping those two bombs? Tragic, yes. Death and warfare are never pleasant things, but sometimes what has to be done has to be done. I think to call it murder is a bit of a stretch, and to link that decision to Truman being a Mason is even more of a stretch. It has been argued here before that the Japanese, by tradidion, had a policy of "no surrender". This can be demostrated simply by the fact that it took two of their cities being leveled for them to give up the fight. I'm sure there are some who will say I'm a war-mongering arrogant American for having this opinion, but so be it. I'm not, and like I said I think it was horrible. I also think that if the war had continued, MANY more lives would have been lost, on both sides.

...and the formation of the CIA and NSA adds to the link. Also, just the fact the higest ranking people were Masons would add to a big world conspriacy.

Without these two organizations (for better or for worse) America would not be what it is today. Everything happens for a reason, God leaves nothing to chance.

Perhaps it is some of the 33rd initiation rituals in DC that a few might find unsettling. The question of racism I think is mute, given virtually every institution back in the day was segregated. Yes, the KKK might have been founded by a high rankign Mason, but again theres people who claim to be catholic that do very bad things.

What are you basing your assumptions on the 33° initiation on? If it’s Jim Shaw, then I’m happy to tell you that it is inaccurate. While Shaw told the truth about some things, other things he completely lied about, one of them being that he was awarded the 33°.

...in the current spectrum of things, it seems like the Masons are in their own way an enemy of this so called NWO people talk about.

I think this is a very accurate assumption.