Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by Dedicated_Dad
This is my official “First Post”, and I thought I’d make it worthwhile.

Welcome, DD, it's good to have you aboard.

That said, I am fascinated by the sheer volume of anti-masonry material that exists.

When I first became a Mason, I was aware of controversies in the past. But when I got my first computer and went online for the first time, I felt the same way. I was absolutely bewildered that this kind of stuff goes on in the modern, "rational", world.

I don't mind the honest critics of Masonry, and there are several on this forum: saint4God, Thomas Crowne, and a few others. They are generally good-natured, and keep the debate honest, although they disagree with us on a few issues. It's the conspiracy-satanic people that blow my mind. Even though most have never knowingly met a Mason in their lives, they are somehow convinced that we are either satanists, Zionists, communists, capitalists, or (insert favorite scapegoat here). It's not their actual charges against us that I'm interested in, as mainstream society isn't going to take them seriously anyway: it's their worldview that I'm interested in, i.e., in what could make a person think that way.

Originally posted by lost


In complete honesty, were your reasons for joining freemasonry born of genuine selflessness, or selfishness?

I've seen this question asked before, but it still puzzles me. I'm a member of several fraternal organizations, and joined my first fraternity while in college. But I've never seen anyone ask if joining a college fraternity is done out of selfishness or selflessness; same thing with other adult fraternities like Elks, Knights of Pythias, etc. So I guess my question would be, what makes Masonry different in the mind of the non-Mason, or one who is critical of Masonry?

Just for the record, I decided to request admission into Masonry because I was fascinated with its history and philosophy (which may be a "selfish" reason), and because I highly respected its charities and wanted to participate actively (which is probably the "selfless" part).

Originally posted by lost
...A big 32nd degree like yourself

There's nothing "big" about it. I petitioned, was accepted and showed up, along with 32 other guys. I only mentioned it for the same reason I petitioned it -- to shortcut the usual drivel associated with "degrees" and ensure myelf and others that when challenged with such nonsense I am qualified to categorize it as a waste of fertilizer.

In complete honesty, were your reasons for joining freemasonry born of genuine selflessness, or selfishness?

This seems to be a perfect example of the sort of "absolutist" thinking that pervades much of public "thought."

I had been told since childhood that Masonry was 'Satanic' -- a Fundie catch-all that in my Father's cicrle referred to movies, dancing, shorts, pants or make-up on women, music and just about everything else other than the limited life condoned by THE church which we attended.

As an adult, active in a more tolerant Christian denomination I began to notice a pattern: The men who best exemplified through their words and deeds the high standard set by use of the title "Christian" seemed to have something in common: the display of a Masonic ring, pin, car emblem or other paraphernalia.

I began to research the fraternity. I read websites -- informed and uninformed -- and eventually decided to petition one of my church Brothers for membership. When I approached him after Sunday morning service, he broke into a broad smile, clapped me on the back and whooped "I thought you'd NEVER ask!!"

I must admit certain misgivings -- prejudices taught from infancy are not easily exorcised -- but I was careful to be open and honest about them, which no doubt provided much entertainment to my new brethren. Having now completed the Scottish Rite, petitioned the York, and read everything related to the subject of Masonry I can get my hands on, I can again say with clarity that I have seen nothing in lodge nor Regular Masonry which should violate any duty which any thinking man could owe to God, his country, his neighbor, his family or himself.

Through Masonry I am given the opportunity to help my fellow (hu)man, fellowship with other like-minded men, learn lessons of morality and integrity that reinforce those I learned in church and at (and usually OVER) my Daddy's knee. I am also able to participate in the preservation of something unique and beautiful which has survived largely unchanged for over 300 years. I get to participate character-building exercises essentially identical to those that produced George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and other giants of my nation's history. I am blessed to be able to partake of the wisdom of my older bretheren, and whisper wise council to those who follow.

Selfless or selfish? Both. It makes me a better man. Who benefits? I do, sure, but so do those around me. It makes me a better Christian. Again, who benefits? I do, but the circle of those who benefit grows larger -- it now encompasses those in my church and those whose children benefit (as mine do) from my efforts on their behalf -- efforts which have only been increased by my education in the Lodge. It has made me a better citizen -- not "subject" -- "CITIZEN." Again, the benefits cannot be assigned a category of internal or external -- they are both.

Masonry has taught me (as much as anything else) that "absolutes" are the refuge of the weak and devious, and that in the real world they are the exception and not the rule.

I hope this helps!

DD

Well, I didnt ask for absolutes. Nor did I ask for beneficiaries after the fact. Thanks however, for such excellent clarity regarding tangents. I clearly requested that you try and narrow it down to one or the other. Not an absolute - just which was the greater reason. The difference could be the difference between 49% and 51%... but alas;

Selfless or selfish? Both.

Couldn't do it eh? Its ok. Despite the fact your answer is not at all what I was looking for, thanks for participating.

edit: any other 32nd degrees wanna step up to bat? Remember; *honesty. And do please try to provide the requested information.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by lost]

Originally posted by lost


any other 32nd degrees wanna step up to bat? .

I did, and you didn't respond. I assumed that to mean that you agreed with everything I said.

sorry masonic light. I did read your answer, and thank you for it ~ however you too left the answer a bit ambiguous. If you could, please try and narrow it down to one or the other. You can list percentiles if you feel the two are so nearing equal. From what I gather, neither yourself nor DD can discern any inequality regarding your initial join up reasons. If that is the case; then I really must say 'wow' -quite the coincedence.

Also, I hardly realized you were of the 32nd degree; congrats.

Originally posted by lost
any other 32nd degrees wanna step up to bat? Remember; *honesty. And do please try to provide the requested information.

Aw...why not! I'll play. It's a nasty, rainy, windy day in Southeast Missouri and I don't really have anything better to do.

Like Masoniclight, I joined a college fraternity and I truly enjoyed being an active participant. In my Senior year I realized that my active days of participation would soon be over and I began to look for something similar that I could enjoy (selfish???) WHEREVER I ended up. I had heard much about Masonry in my college fraternity because a couple of the founders and the chief author of the ritual had been Masons which is mentioned often in our history. I knew a couple of men in the community who were Masons and I got to know more about the organization and began to understand what they did and why...so I petitioned the local Lodge. I became a Master Mason within a few months (that was in 1989). Later in the year I joined the York Rite and took all it's degrees through that of Knight Templar.

My first job took me to Louisville KY where I petitioned the Scottish Rite and received the 4th - 32nd Degrees in 1991 and the Scottish Rite's "Knight Commander of the Courth of Honor" in 2001.

I think my reasons for being involved in Masonry are neither "selfish" nor "selfless" but perhaps a combination of both as I give to the organization (which benefits Masonry and my fellow human beings) and it (Masonry) benefits me.

...and like Masoniclight I, too, belong to several other fraternal organizations besides Masonry...all of which have a charitable purpose and provide personal benefits for members.

Regards

Originally posted by lost
...I really must say 'wow' -quite the coincedence....

"quite the coincidence? Wha?

Any man who is there for more than a social club and who've given this any thought would be equally conflicted by such binary thought processes. The true, short answer is "Both. And Neither." This is not an ambiguous answer, it is simple truth.

...that wasn't what I was looking for...

If you weren't seeking to understand, then what is the purpose of your question?

If you're looking for a "simple" answer, then "simple" semantics would dictate the only TRUE answer to be "selfish." If my main reason was because "I wanted to do good things in my community" my reason still starts with the words "I Wanted." Semantically speaking, "personal desires" are selfish motives. The reality, as with most realities, is much too complex to be stuffed into a binary world view.

I used to love to watch my child as a toddler, playing with a hollow plastic ball endowed with a number of differently-shaped holes and a number of differently-shaped blocks. One day she realized that she could place *A* peg through *A* hole. The joy this discovery caused was short lived, though, and she experienced considerable frustration at the ensuing revelation that ALL pegs could not be put through the same hole.

Eventually she matured enough to be able to understand that there are many shapes, and that all are not interchangeable. Her mother never understood why I deliberately gave her blocks that wouldn't fit through ANY of the holes in the ball, but I had a good reason: Even before she could speak, she understood the fact that not everything was as simple as it appeared, and that there were facets of life that defied simple categorization. Few aspects in life fall into simple categories of "good/evil up/down medicine/poison or even up/down. Such binary thinking limits one's experiences, abilities and understandings.

Also, I hardly realized you were of the 32nd degree; congrats.

You're betraying your misunderstanding of what that means. In sum, what you're saying is "congrats" for having the interest, time, and (actually negligible amount of) money necessary to go watch some folks put on a few morality plays." There are no special priveleges or status granted to us for having these attributes, except the right to wear a "32" symbol or place one on our car.

Personally I prefer to congratulate ML, and for that matter more especially AxeMan for having the wherewithal necessary to think, and research for himself the truth that's there, waiting to be found. Moreso, I congratulate both for having given it enough study that they are able to elucidate it in a timely and cogent manner.

DD

Lot of good posts here today. The older I get the more I understand that there is very few things that are black or white. Most things are shades of grey. I joined for a mix of reasons: tradition, wanting to be part of something bigger than myself, wanting to help others, wanting to grow as a person. Like DD said somtimes there just aren't any simple answers.

Originally posted by lost
Well, I didnt ask for absolutes. (edit) I clearly requested that you try and narrow it down to one or the other. Not an absolute - just which was the greater reason. The difference could be the difference between 49% and 51%... but alas;

Selfless or selfish? Both.

Couldn't do it eh? Its ok. Despite the fact your answer is not at all what I was looking for, thanks for participating.

I believe he DID answer your question, he just didn't give you the answer that you wanted I see his logic with clarity. It IS selfish, root word SELF, to improve oneself, to do something for oneself. How? By being selfless. I have NO problem with this logic.

edit: any other 32nd degrees wanna step up to bat? Remember; *honesty. And do please try to provide the requested information.

I find it objectional that you feel the need to ask for "honesty", are you automatically expecting a lie? That's offensive imo. Also, could you try to be a little less condecending?

Postscript: I am not a Mason, just one seeking to Deny Ignorance.

The true, short answer is "Both. And Neither."

Uh, thanks Dad. That still does not answer my very clear request to narrow it down to the greater of the two. It is quite alright though. I accept 'both and neither' as the best Im going to get from you guys. If you cannot meet my very specific request, just say so. Im really not interested in why you cannot. Actually it was expected. You ask the purpose of my question? The answer I will grant you;

The purpose of my question was so that I might attain an answer. (this is the part where you catch on). To thwart any more of your assumptions, I will explain even more specifically; The purpose of my question was not 'to understand.' The purpose of my question was to see *if* an articulate mason such as yourself could/would actually answer the question. I have my answer.

I like the story about the pegs etc. However Im quite sure Id heard it before. Are you sure you're not a copycat in your child rearing methods? That aside, you claim most realities are much too complex to be stuffed into a binary world view. I agree. Our agreement however, does not hinder your ability to do your best in the stuffing attempt -or atleast in providing a statement explaining that you cannot. The 'why' is yours to give. Im not particulary interested though.

This is not an ambiguous answer, it is simple truth.

This however is pretty blatantly false. both and neither? not ambiguous? Sorry DD, I have to disagree. Maybe its just one of those things that only masons get. But its eerily reminiscant of the sounds a liar makes when trapped.

You're betraying your misunderstanding of what that means. In sum, what you're saying is "congrats" for having the interest, time, and (actually negligible amount of) money necessary to go watch some folks put on a few morality plays." There are no special priveleges or status granted to us for having these attributes, except the right to wear a "32" symbol or place one on our car.

You assume much DD. I never claimed the 32nd degree enjoys special priveleges. I merely said congrats. Hopefully my 'misunderstanding' will forgive my betrayal someday. Until then, perhaps you shouldnt create so many grey areas of confusion when people such as myself speak in very black and white terms. Oh, and thanks for finally answering the question; SELFISH.

Now that we finally have the answer direct from DD's fingertips; let me articulate my point:

9 times out of 10, a Mason on defence will flaunt his selfless motives for associating himself with the frat. above the more abundant selfish ones.

In my opinion, this is quite deceptive yet illustrative of what lies at the core of 9 out of 10 masons. I suspect that the same selfish motives fuel the majority of a masons 'journey'.

Now, before you place me into one of your categories of 'anti-masons' - I understand that the 'I want' semmantics are very basic to us humans. It is first-instinct to think about oneself above everything else. I do not condemn anybody, be they mason or otherwise for this shortcoming. It is a fault of mine as well. I merely began this dialogue so as to conclude that one must not take oaths of whatever which kind nor join any grouping to further prove his/her selfishness; It is inate in us all. Everyones poop stinks.

Also, I personally find masons and their displayed ignorance of the above logic to be rather annoying, not to mention haughty. And I find it deceptive and unbelievable for masons to pretend it wasnt about their individual selves all along. You DD really are an exceptional mason - as you are able to dismiss these talltales, however long it took you.

Finally I would like to make the argument that instead of swearing in, all one needs to do in order to better his/her morality would be to make the choice. If an individual believes a special initiation and/or fellowshipping committee will re-enforce their efforts, so be it; Go join up. Personally, I think it is a silly excuse - and I would emplore all those who consider it to ask the question; Selfless or Selfish? Therein lies the answer. And therein lies the evidence to whether or not he/she is actually interested in the betterment of his/her morality.

Lastly DD, If you can help it - I would appreciate it if you didnt let everyone know Im living in my mothers basement.

Again, thanks for participating. You made my day.

edit: thanks for your opinions and interpretation of logic intrepid. I hope you can better grasp my point of view and own interpretation of logic, given my above post. Keep that ignorance denial stun gun ready



[edit on 15-11-2005 by lost]

lost, you must be(or you just don't want to see), I can only assume you missed my post.

Intrepid, I was typing my responce and only discovered your post after I posted. I edited to include a short responce to yourself, but now what the heck;

Im sorry you find my initial instinct to expect a lie offensive. I guess I will have to work on that. Also, if you re-read your logical interpretation of DD's answer, you will find it too is ambiguous. I accept the ambiguous answers rendered by my request to be quite natural. However I was, as you pointed out, wanting an answer lacking ambiguity.

I realize this request of mine is quite selfish. I realize I have been afforded a *privelege* and not a *right* in recieving my ambiguous-less answer. I thank ATS for it.

Originally posted by lost
However I was, as you pointed out, wanting an answer lacking ambiguity.

Originally posted by lost
Well, I didnt ask for absolutes.

Hey, I'm good at this quoting thingy aren't I?

I have a good memory too. You are asking 2 different things. Why? You have something you want to state and you haven't got the ammo. Damn, that must suck man.

Your point? Want to make it? Or is that too succinct

I'll try to answer your question to your satisfaction Lost, but I doubt if you will like the answer.

Were my reasons for joining selfish or selfless? While I agree that it can fairly be answered "Both... and neither," I will spare you the ambiguity, as that sems to be what you want to do; i.e. corner someone into saying that their reasons were more selfish than selfless so you can berate them for being selfish. Excellent work.

OK. My reasons for joining I suppose are quite selfish. I joined for me. I joined to improve myself and acquire knowledge, as well as the fellowship. So yes, I joined for selfish reasons, but I am by no means a selfish person. As Masonry teaches one to be selfless and help your fellow man if it is within your power to do so, I would say that my selfish resons for joining Masonry will ultimately, through my own choices, actions, and experiences, result in me being more selfless than I already am.

So, I hope that was straight forward enough for you. Selfish reasons.

1 What is that grave in the lodge with sekeletons and cofen and a altar that looks like dooms day( oh no it is just for morality cant you see how rong you are, how can you think such things so what if it looks like a grave yard
but we play hamlet there, how silly of you why dont you like the grave yard)

2 why are you forming a circle and holding u'r hands like in a religios ritual from egipt( ohh no you are rong we are just hoding hands has friends
ohh we didint even know they did that in aicient egipt)well what a coincidence since alll the stuff comes from egipt.

THIS THREAD HAS FAILED YOU HAVE FAILED

The reason you beeing here is to change peoples opinion it has failed.
You do not convince us, so deal and live with it.
As long as you give a pour explanation and do not convince people it will remain the same.

Tactics failed please cary on(with u'r life)

If you bring explenations that are relevant i will change my opinion, and i'll state "masonary is good" i will do that it is not hard for me but untill then
things will remain the same for most of us who have contary opinions.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
1 What is that grave in the lodge with sekeletons and cofen and a altar that looks like dooms day( oh no it is just for morality cant you see how rong you are, how can you think such things so what if it looks like a grave yard
but we play hamlet there, how silly of you why dont you like the grave yard)

Having grown up in the funeral industry I see no problem with it at all, but that's just me...I'm a cat of a different color.

2 why are you forming a circle and holding u'r hands like in a religios ritual from egipt( ohh no you are rong we are just hoding hands has friends
ohh we didint even know they did that in aicient egipt)well what a coincidence

since alll the stuff comes from egipt.

Hmmm...based on that logic, my family must be from "aicient eqipt" because we stand in a circle, hold hands and pray before meals. Yep. I'll bet that's it! We're from aicient egipt! I knew it all along.

I wonder if Mirthful Me will help me erect a Sphinx (or is it sfeenx?) in my yard.

THIS THREAD HAS FAILED YOU HAVE FAILED

Wow! Failed, huh? Usually failed threads only last for a couple of posts...maybe a page and a half at most. It SURE took this one a long time and a lot of posts to fail.

Congrats on that text size thing, though. You're getting really good on this site. That really stands out!

The reason you beeing here is to change peoples opinion it has failed.

Nope. I'm here because I enjoy the silly nonsense that you and your ilk post. It's no wonder you have negative points...

You do not convince us, so deal and live with it.
As long as you give a pour explanation and do not convince people it will remain the same.

So what? Who are you that any of us should CARE whether or not we convince you? I doubt I'll lose much sleep over it.

Tactics failed please cary on(with u'r life)

Why, thanks for your permission!

If you bring explenations that are relevant i will change my opinion, and i'll state "masonary is good" i will do that it is not hard for me but untill then
things will remain the same for most of us who have contary opinions.

That's the beautiful thing about opinions (at least in this country anyway) everyone is entitled to his or her own. And as I said earlier...frankly I couldn't care any less what yours is....I simply refuse to read lies without standing up against them.

Oh, I suppose you'll cry now that I've been rude to you and hurt your feelings so allow me to apologize in advance.



[edit on 15-11-2005 by senrak]

good job senrak but your observation an number 1 is irelevant
Maybe i'l buy the family thing holding hand but not that.


If one was to put a picture with a couple of masons in a lodge praing to the eye on the piramid you would just say ohh no they are on their knees
because they lost their keys what a good one and we will all belive you ohhh what a crazy idea how can we belive that of course
it's the keys

I supose you see a big skeletons at the funeral too with a altar that has a big skull sign on it and piramids with eyes near it.




[edit on 15-11-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
If one was to put a picture with a couple of masons in a lodge praing to the eye on the piramid you would just say ohh no they are on their knees
because they lost their keys

No. I'd say it was a FAKE because Masons pray to the Almighty God and not to pictures or "piramids" ...not even pyramids.

I supose you see a big skeletons at the funeral too with a altar that has a big skull sign on it and piramids with eyes near it.

No...and I've never seen any of those in the Lodge Room either...but then Masonry is different from state to state and from country to country.

I'm still just REALLY curious what your particular hang-up with it is...other than the obvious, to start trouble.

Originally posted by pepsi78

If one was to put a picture with a couple of masons in a lodge praing to the eye on the piramid you would just say ohh no they are on their knees
because they lost their keys

what a good one and we will all belive you ohhh what a crazy idea how can we belive that of course
it's the keys

And if they were to post a picture of masons saving a little baby, you would just say oh no they are sacrificing the baby before eating it for brunch.