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Originally posted by XanaX
Axeman....I notice you quote Pike in your signature line...the same Pike that did this:
1840 Albert Pike builds a mansion in Arkansas where he designs plans
for three world wars and three revolutions.
Truly a great man! Plotting world wars and revolutions. A true humanitarian. I could find more info on Pike, but why bother. He was a scumbag and basically a predecessor to Hitler.
quote from:
beyond-the-illusion.com...
Originally posted by XanaX
Mate, it was a lenghty u2u, took time to write. So I suggest you read it, take it to heart and stop this crap on the board.
Stop this crap? Expressing my opinion is crap? I thought that was what this forum was for? I think you can let me know your opinion regarding how I broke rule #1 without threatening me. I understand what you believe I did and it won't happen again.....but in the future, maybe treat other adults like adults...not like children!....then maybe they will show you the respect you want. Respect breeds respect!
[edit on 22-10-2005 by XanaX]
Originally posted by intrepid
OK guys, let's get back to the topic, whatever it is.
Originally posted by pepsi78
Originally posted by intrepid
OK guys, let's get back to the topic, whatever it is.
Yes u'r right let's go back to the topic.
The topic it's self is in qestion cause it is not a fair topic.
The topic is:
"Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?"
How do you know it's a lie you must be a mason for sure.
Let's investigate let's look at the evidence and then jump to conclusions i would say.
All i hear is how good masons are and how they do all sort of wonderfull stuff.
Let the evidence speak.
Words will not do just simple words, i can say any thing ohhh how good i am i am a woderfull person.
The qestion is how do you know i'm all that?
Any masson that will come and try to disproof me i will argue with evidence each time it hapens.
I am not sayng that u'r all bad and most of you the majority don't have a idea what u'r in or what u'r part of.
Free massonary is something very complex and it will take time to learn to get to a level that's why you got steps you climbe up the piramid once you know more.
But to argue on what you don't know my friends is a big mistake(the top of the piramid) and i would say it's a prety ugly thing there at the top.
Originally posted by pepsi78
Don't you even ask u'r self about the pictures that i put up.
Does it put questions on u'r mind?
I was waiting for some kind of contra argument against them but i guess you got none.
Originally posted by The Axeman
Originally posted by akilles
So now that you know the sculpture I am talking about, please don't just post another link, and leave me assuming they conclude that there was no connection between said topics. Thank you.
OK I'll play.
You're talking about this sculpture:
Fair enough. Now a pic of the drawing of Baphomet by Eliphas Levi:
Now I can see that in both of these pictures, the subject is pointing up with the right hand, and (arguably in the case of Washington, it looks to me as if he's offering his sword) down with the left. There the similarities cease, unless of course you consider the bare chest.
So what? What's your great point, now that I've done the work for you? Enlighten us, give us some commentary on how these two pieces are so inextricably intertwined as to spell out the insidious connections you have alleged. I'm breathless with anticipation...
Here are the Connections: Eliphas Levi drew the picture of Baphomet. George Washington was a Freemason. All four elements of your argument connected and laid out for you. I still don't see your point, but hey what do I know, I'm just a bastard who needs a nap.
*bell rings* Class dismissed.
Originally posted by The Axeman
Good stuff my friend, but I was talking about Eliphas Levi. Perhaps he didn't "come up with" Baphomet, but he did elaborate and he drew this representation:
and here is a quote about his interpretation of the symbolism in his drawing:
from www.templarhistory.com...
Lévi's Drawing: An Examination
It is believed that within Lévi's Baphomet, are contained the dualistic nature of life and the male female aspects of creation. The image combines both male and female qualities; one arm masculine, one feminine; the breasts of a woman with a phallic object on its lap; one arm pointing skyward while one pointing down, perhaps a representation of the Hermetic axiom "As Above...So Below". The illustration also shows one arm points toward a white crescent moon the other towards a dark crescent moon, perhaps a representation of the waxing and waning phases of the moon but it could also represent the duality of good and evil. On the right arm is written "Solve" Solution and on the Left "Coagula" Coagulation. These are references found in alchemy a study that Lévi not only undertook but also wrote about in his books.
Here is what Eliphas Lévi had to say about the Baphomet image he drew.
My thanks go to Christian Joachim Hartmann for providing me with this translation from Lévi's book:
"The goat on the frontispiece carries the sign of the pentagram on the forehead, with one point at the top, a symbol of light, his two hands forming the sign of hermetism, the one pointing up to the white moon of Chesed, the other pointing down to the black one of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect harmony of mercy with justice. His one arm is female, the other male like the ones of the androgyn of Khunrath, the attributes of which we had to unite with those of our goat because he is one and the same symbol. The flame of intelligence shining between his horns is the magic light of the universal balance, the image of the soul elevated above matter, as the flame, whilst being tied to matter, shines above it. The ugly beast's head expresses the horror of the sinner, whose materially acting, solely reponsible part has to bear the punishment exclusively; because the soul is insensitive according to its nature and can only suffer when it materializes. The rod standing instead of genitals symbolizes eternal life, the body covered with scales the water, the semi- circle above it the atmosphere, the feathers following above the volatile. Humanity is represented by the two breasts and the androgyn arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences."
Some ignorant fools just MUST see evil where there is none, frankly it makes me sad for them. There is so much more to the world and everything in it if only people will open their eyes or "take off their blinders" as our friend above so adamantly suggests we do.
I had blinders on for a long time pal, and now that I have removed them, my sight is returning slowly but surely. It's amazing what you can discover if you will only shut your mouth for a bit and watch, listen, and learn.
Here is another thing masons try to say over and over that masonari is not a religion.
I'm still waiting for explenations on the first pictures i put up so far i got none, mean while take a look at this.
To proof that masoneri is a religion.
Has you can see it says temple.
You should ceck the dictionary on what the word temple means.
A temple is asociated with religion and with out religion the word temple has no meaning.
If you would say temple of the learning it would be incorect has in just a temple for learning.
The word temple has to do with religion and should not be asocciated with any thing else.
Originally posted by pepsi78
I can see you got some arguments about the goat how ever i still find it disturbing that he seats in the same position has the goat.
But what about the temple how can you explain that because i know very well what the word "temple" means.
I am not makeing you incompetent but i do want you to ceck the dictionary
to see what it exactly means.
After all we are all here to find the truf.
Quote from dictionary.reference.com...
tem·ple1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tmpl)
n.
1. A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.
a.Temple Either of two successive buildings in ancient Jerusalem serving as the primary center for Jewish worship.
b.Judaism. A synagogue, especially of a Reform congregation.
c.Mormon Church. A building in which the sacred ordinances are administered.
2.Something regarded as having within it a divine presence.
3. A building used for meetings by any of several fraternal orders, especially the Knights Templars.
4. A building reserved for a highly valued function: the library, a temple of learning.
5. Temple Either of two groups of buildings in London, the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple, that house two of the four Inns of Court and that occupy the site of the medieval Knights Templars establishment.
Originally posted by Golfie
Originally posted by pepsi78
I can see you got some arguments about the goat how ever i still find it disturbing that he seats in the same position has the goat.
Umm no he's not...the goat appears to have its legs crossed Washington does not.
But what about the temple how can you explain that because i know very well what the word "temple" means.
I am not makeing you incompetent but i do want you to ceck the dictionary
to see what it exactly means.
After all we are all here to find the truf.
I did...and you are correct in one form of the definition of the word...but other's also apply.....
[emphasis mine]
Quote from dictionary.reference.com...
tem·ple1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tmpl)
n.
1. A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.
a.Temple Either of two successive buildings in ancient Jerusalem serving as the primary center for Jewish worship.
b.Judaism. A synagogue, especially of a Reform congregation.
c.Mormon Church. A building in which the sacred ordinances are administered.
2.Something regarded as having within it a divine presence.
3. A building used for meetings by any of several fraternal orders, especially the Knights Templars.
4. A building reserved for a highly valued function: the library, a temple of learning.
5. Temple Either of two groups of buildings in London, the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple, that house two of the four Inns of Court and that occupy the site of the medieval Knights Templars establishment.
As you can see there are many meanings for the word temple. Let us not for get about the soft spots beside your eyes...oh yes those too are called temples......
So just because you don't like the multiple meanings of the word, or feel that it should be resereved for churches, doesn't mean that it's use is wrong.
Originally posted by pepsi78
If i want to go some where to learn i sure wont say i'm going to the temple.
I will for sure say i am going to the library.
it would be silly for me to say hey today why dont we go to the temple of learning to get some books.
And the rest would go hmmmm to where.
Okay let me put it this way how many of the librarys you know are called temples besides the so called temple library of the masons
Quote from: www.senate.gov...
On July 31, 1841, a sailing vessel from Leghorn, Italy, docked at the Washington Navy Yard. It carried a massive ten-foot-high, twelve-ton marble statue of a seated man wearing only a Roman toga. The artist was the noted American sculptor Horatio Greenough; the marble man, modeled after the Greek god Zeus, was George Washington.
This forum is NOT.. repeat NOT for opinion, it is for the debate of theory and fact, and opinion has nothing to do with either. i have alot of opinions regarding what is said here.. but i withhold them in favor of presenting facts and challening others to back up what they claim as fact. and if you will take notice.. the masons on this forum (and again, i am not a mason) do their best to do the same, and usually in the face of alot of propagadistic fluff spouted by people who happened arcoss a webpage full of lies and suddenly decides to take up the cause against freemasonry
Originally posted by Khonsu
For the last time Baphomet is not associated with Satan or the Devil!
Again you uninitiated, unstudied individuals need to stop dealing with things you have no understanding of, its really annoying. So I'm going to put this Baphomet, Goat devil nonsense to rest by explaining the esoteric meaning behind it. So from this post on NO ONE ON ATS CAN EVER CLAIM IT TO BE RELATED TO ANYTHING SATANIC BECAUSE ITS NOT AND THE TRUE MEANING BEHIND IT CAN BE FOUND BELOW.
Baphomet, The Goat of Mendes
The word "Baphomet" is derived from the Greek term "Baph Metis", which means "baptism of light". The image of Baphomet was compiled and drawn by Eliphas Levi, he was not a Freemason. The image of Baphomet contains a Goat head, androgynous characteristics, wings and various hermetic symbols. The figure is seated legs crossed on a cube with rests upon an orb. A femanine arm points up towards an increasing cresent moon and a masculine arm points downward to a decreasing cresent moon. Each arm has written on it a word in latin, "Solve" and "Coagula". Between the horns of the head is a pentagram and also a torch. The chest features a pair of breasts and below them there is a caduces.
In all, these combined symbols illustrate the seven hermetic principles and the duality of all, in short it illustrates the principles of the universe. The torch symbolizes the divine light which all initiates seek. The Goat is a phallic symbol and an emblem of courage or aspiration. To the alchemists the goat's head was the symbol of sulphur. Sulphur has a wealth of deep esoteric meaning which must be explored to fully comprehend the vastness of this image. In tarot the "hanged Man" hanging upside down by his left leg from a horizontal beam suspended between two tree trunks with the right leg of the man crossed in back of the left and arms folded behind his back, elbows pointing out from the sides, forming an inverted pentagram, or symbol of sulphur. Levi declared that the upturned feet signify the spiritualization of the lower nature. It is also possible that the inverted figure denotes the loss of the spiritual faculties, as the head is below the level of the body. To attain ones highest potential , therefore, man must reverse, or invert, the order of his life. In the pseudo-Egyptian Tarot the hanged man is suspended between two palm trees and signifies the Sun God who dies perrennially for this world. In alchemy there are three symbolic substances: mercury, sulphur and salt. The interesting thing is that although listed sepereately each of these substances contain within it the other two, salt therefore is threefold, namely salt, sulphur and mercury. The same rule applies to mercury and sulphur. This alchemical trinity is allegorial to the divine trinity of Father Son and Holy Spirit, Mind body and Soul, Life death and resurrection, Man Woman and Child, Knoweldge Wisdom and Understanding etc. Sulphur because of its firey nature is also associated with the Sun. The Sun is of course the great light bearer and life giver.
The 5 pointed star or pentagram which appears on the goats forehead is a symbol for the microcosm, the divine formula of man. It represents one rising out of four, the human soul rising from its lower animal nature. It is the "star of the morning" and represents the five senses of man, the five elements of nature and the five extremeties of the human body. The Pentagram has no relation to Satanism or Black Magic. In fact Black Magic has no true symbols, as it is not a fundamental art. Instead it relies upon the symbols of so called "white magic" and by inverting them creates symbols which signify or illustrate the opposite or reciprocal principles. Which, never the less illustrates a key point which is crucial to understaind Baphomet, the Hermetic principle of correspondence. The Head of Baphomet outlines an inverted pentagram while a normal pentagram rests upon its forehead. Together they represent both sides of the "magical" spectrum and cancel each other out making it neutral.
The wings of Baphomet represent aspiration, ascendence and beauty. They also represent transcendence beyond the physical form and world. The male and female features of Baphomet represent the masuline and femanine energies and principles which exist in all things in the universe and it illustrates the balance and equality bewteen them. The latin word "Solve" means to loosen, break up, untie, release, free, disolve or solve. The latin word "Coagula" means to bind, bunch or tie up, to bring together, in short they are opposites, and thus once again express the universal principle of polarity. Additionally they illustrate the 2 constant principles of existance, the process of building and destroying, life and death, creation and disection. Life..... existance is a constant state of the two, although seemingly different they walk hand in hand, one cannot take place without the other, and thus one cannont exist without the other.
The arm of Baphomet pointing upward represents the hermetic law of correspondence illustrating the statement "as is above" while the arm pointing downward finishes the statement by representing "so is below". Pointing at an ascending and descending moon, one light one dark it illustrates again the duality between light and darkness, good and evil, knowledge and ignorance, day and night, life and death, the eternal cycle. Again, one cannot exist without the other, because without Darkness, how could you define light, and vice versa.
The Caduces is an ancient egyptian symbol often reffered to as the staff of Hermes or more appropriately Tehuti. Contemporarely it is a symbol of the medical field, yet esoterically the two snakes entertwined rising upward around a pole represents the divine fire of man rising up to its pinacle and activating the divine nature within him.
Baphomet sits on a cube which represents the physical world. This cube sits on top of an orb which represents the spiritual world. Both of these sybols are simply a square and a circle which mathematicall is the same thing with a value of 360 degress. Together the cube and sphere represent the complete world both physical and spiritual.
This is the breakdown of Baphomet. Write it down.... study.
You can thank me later.
[edit on 10/23/05 by Khonsu]