Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Just thought I'd throw this in for all youse who think Masonry is evil or nefarious or of the Devil... You see only what you want to see, nothing more; but such is life I guess. Masonry, and indeed the Truth, is not for everyone.

From: The Builders, by Rev. Joseph Fort Newton, pp.68-70

What, then, is the Secret Doctrine, of which this seer-like scholar [Arthur Edward Waite] has written with so many improvisations of eloquence and emphasis, and of which each of us is in quest? What, indeed, but that which all the world is seeking--knowledge of Him whom to know aright is the fulfillment of every human need: the kinship of the soul with God; the life of purity, honor, and piety demanded by that high heredity; the unity and fellowship of the race in duty and destiny; and the faith that the soul is deathless as God its Father is deathless! Now to accept this faith as a mere philosophy is one thing, but to realize it as an experience of the innermost heart is another and a deeper thing. No man knows the Secret Doctrine until it has become the secret of his soul, the reigning reality of his thought, the inspiration of his acts, the form and color and glory of his life. Happily, owing to the growth of the race in spiritual intelligence and power, the highest truth is no longer held as a sacred secret. Still, if art has efficacy to surprise and reveal the elusive Spirit of Truth, when truth is dramatically presented it is made vivid and impressive, strengthening the faith of the strongest and bringing a ray of heavenly light to many a baffled seeker.

Ever the Quest goes on, though it is permitted some of us to believe that the Lost Word has been found, in the only way in which it can ever be found--even in the life of Him who was "the Word made flesh," who dwelt among us and whose grace and beauty we know. Of this Quest Masonry is an aspect, continuing the high tradition of humanity, asking men to unite in the search for the thing most worth finding, that each may share the faith of all. Apart from its rites, there is no mystery in Masonry, save the mystery of all great and simple things. So far from being hidden or occult, its glory lies in its openness, and its emphasis upon the realities which are to the human world what light and air are to nature. Its mystery is of so great a kind that it is easily overlooked; its secret almost too simple to be found out.

[brackets mine]

I'd like to see what you guys (particularly Resistance and TxSecret) have to say to this.

And try not to ignore my post, as you have a habit of doing.

Originally posted by The Axeman indeed the Truth, is not for everyone.

From: The Builders, by Rev. Joseph Fort Newton, pp.68-70 What, indeed, but that which all the world is seeking--knowledge of Him whom to know aright is the fulfillment of every human need: the kinship of the soul with God; the life of purity, honor, and piety demanded by that high heredity; the unity and fellowship of the race in duty and destiny; and the faith that the soul is deathless as God its Father is deathless! Now to accept this faith as a mere philosophy is one thing, but to realize it as an experience of the innermost heart is another and a deeper thing.

I'd like to comment as well, if I may...

There is, IMO, a vast chasm which determines the difference between two solitudes:

There are those whom are comfortable in the notion of a God which exists outside of men. They determine their fealty to this external God by their actions during their lives and are of the opinion that sins can be balanced against 'good works'. It is the notion, also, that the gates of heaven are opened to those who pay for their sins with penitance and confessions.

There are also those who believe that God exists internally and is directly affected by the sins of the person through impacting the soul with transgressions. Each soul, being a part of the Greater Deity, carries with it a record of all such infractions, carved deeply, never to be erased by good works.

If a person has accepted the internal God, they must live their life according to their conscience, weighing each act in selflessness and benefitting from the flow of rewards which such behaviour always is responded with by others of 'good intent'.

The kicker is that such people are preyed upon mercilessly by those of 'evil intent'.
An external God, on the other hand, sits back and judges everything which influences the actions which people make, absolving themselves of personal responsibility and relegating it to the Great Referee instead.

Resistance.. the catholic church has looooooong ago declared masonry as it's primary enemy in europe, mainly because early mason gave refuge to the Knights Templar when they fled france after being excummincated by the pope, Most popes.. including John Paul II, have spoken out against freemasonry, so by what do you base this idea that the catholic chruch has any dealings with the order?

Now grant you.. the catholic chruch has a long history of it's own mis-doings, they have mislead the faithfull to suit their needs and fill their coffers, they have spread war.. they declared science to be a heresy, which is where the dark ages comes from.. and why we have lost all but a small portion of the knowlege from the ancient days, and their general foolishness throughout time is almost astounding (They thought cats were of the devil, and killed off cats by the thousands throughout europe, there by leaving the deseased rats to spread the black plauge)

But the catholic church did all this for it's own benifit, not for the benifit of the masonic order

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

Originally posted by Becon of Light
Resistance.. the catholic church has looooooong ago declared masonry as it's primary enemy in europe, mainly because early mason gave refuge to the Knights Templar when they fled france after being excummincated by the pope, Most popes.. including John Paul II, have spoken out against freemasonry, so by what do you base this idea that the catholic chruch has any dealings with the order?

Now grant you.. the catholic chruch has a long history of it's own mis-doings, they have mislead the faithfull to suit their needs and fill their coffers, they have spread war.. they declared science to be a heresy, which is where the dark ages comes from.. and why we have lost all but a small portion of the knowlege from the ancient days, and their general foolishness throughout time is almost astounding (They thought cats were of the devil, and killed off cats by the thousands throughout europe, there by leaving the deseased rats to spread the black plauge)

But the catholic church did all this for it's own benifit, not for the benifit of the masonic order

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

The Catholic church considers itself the top dog on the pile in the triangle and doesn't like other organizations who don't cowtow to it. The Catholic church is a "big tent" and will take anything and everything as long as you acknowledge the pope as the top dog.

HAHAHAHA.. really.. and how many masons here consider the pope "top dog"?

not just that.. but even the anti-mason propagandists have writtten about the conflict between the church and the order

Originally posted by Becon of Light
HAHAHAHA.. really.. and how many masons here consider the pope "top dog"?

not just that.. but even the anti-mason propagandists have writtten about the conflict between the church and the order

That's my point. That's why there's a conflict. The church wants you to put the pope on top of the pyramid, not Lucifer or the grand master whoever it is. The freemasons can keep their structure intact as long as they fit it within the matrix of the catholic church's hierarchy, someplace below the pope.

yes.. and the order doesnt put the pope at the top... at all, the men of the order know that your relationship with God is YOUR bussiness.. not the popes.. and the vatican knows that it will never rule over the masonic order, which is why they have tried to destroy the order for 400 years.. so i ask again.. where do you get this idea that the catholic chruch and the order have anything to do with each other?

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

Resistance,

Just curious: why did you not comment on the George Washington letters which proved your previous assertions about Washington and Masonry to be a lie? All of Washington's correspondences with Masonic organizations can be seen on the Library of Congress' website, photocopied, in his original handwriting, the link to which I gave in my previous post.

How does it feel to be exposed as a fraud?

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Becon of Light
yes.. and the order doesnt put the pope at the top... at all, the men of the order know that your relationship with God is YOUR bussiness.. not the popes.. and the vatican knows that it will never rule over the masonic order, which is why they have tried to destroy the order for 400 years.. so i ask again.. where do you get this idea that the catholic chruch and the order have anything to do with each other?

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

They are two competing entities of similar nature -- arranged in a pyramid. When the NWO comes one or the other will have to sublimate itself within the matrix.

Originally posted by resistance
That's my point. That's why there's a conflict. The church wants you to put the pope on top of the pyramid, not Lucifer or the grand master whoever it is. The freemasons can keep their structure intact as long as they fit it within the matrix of the catholic church's hierarchy, someplace below the pope.

I think the term Freemasons use is "The Great Architect of the Universe"


en.wikipedia.org...

Axeman, I'm not going to ignore your post, but please don't ignore mine either. Let me digest some things that have come to the forefront.
This thread has been fascinating to say the least and honestly? I'm paying close attention to what everyone is saying on both sides of the "fence".
My main concern for myself right now is reconciling freemasonry with Christianity and I'm having a extremely difficult time doing it. Please consider the following disparities or chasms if you will between Christianity and freemasonry and comment on them. This information is from 2 credible sources.. no?



SALVATION BY WORKS?



Freemasonry teaches,

"...that everything which man is put to do, if rightly and faithfully done, naturally helps to work out his salvation; that if he obeys the genuine principles of his calling, he will be a good man:..." (Pike, p. 211 ).

Christianity teaches,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." (Ephesians 2: 8,9. See also Romans 11:6).

SEVERAL WAYS TO GOD?

Freemasonry teaches,

"...these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to others, another." (J.S.M. Ward quoted in Freemasonry, The Invisible Cult in our Midst by J. Harris p. 100).

Christianity teaches,

"...I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (Jesus, quoted in John 14:6. See also John 10, 9; 3:36.)

IS JESUS ONLY ONE OF MANY?

Freemasonry teaches,

"It reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require." (Pike, p. 525).

Christianity teaches,

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved". (Acts 4:12; See also 1 Cor. 8:6).

ARE BLOODY OATHS ACCEPTABLE?

Freemasonry teaches: First Degree - Throat cut across, tongue torn out etc. as part of the the sworn. Third Degree - Body severed in twain, bowels taken out etc. as part of the oath sworn. (Harris pp. 50,51).Christianity teaches,

"But I say to you, make no oath at all,...But let your statement be, "yes, yes" or "No, no"; and anything beyond these is of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37; see also James 5:12).

HOW IS THE BIBLE VIEWED?

Freemasonry teaches,

"The Bible is used among Masons as the symbol of the will of God, however it may be expressed, and therefore, whatever to any people expresses that will may be used as a substitute for the Bible in a Masonic Lodge." (Albert Mackey quoted by Harris p. 47).

Therefore any "Holy" book may be on the Masonic altar!

Christianity teaches,

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16; see also Proverbs 30:5,6, Hebrews 4:12).

SHOULD SECRETS BE KEPT

BY CHRISTIANS?

Freemasonry teaches,

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Herneticism and Alchemy conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light from them, and to draw them away from it." (Pike, p. 104,105.)

Christianity teaches,

"Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. Why do you question Me? Question those who have heard what I spoke to them; behold, these know what I said." (John 18:20; see also Matt. 10:27, Luke 12:3, Ephesians 5:11-13).

WHERE IS TRUE LIGHT FOUND?

Freemasonry teaches,

Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah." (Pike p. 741).

However, the Kabalah teachings (Jewish occult mysticism) is condemned by the Bible.

Christianity teaches,

"...Jesus spoke to them saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12. See also John 1:4,5, and Matt. 5:14-16).




[edit on 21-10-2005 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Resistance,

Just curious: why did you not comment on the George Washington letters which proved your previous assertions about Washington and Masonry to be a lie? All of Washington's correspondences with Masonic organizations can be seen on the Library of Congress' website, photocopied, in his original handwriting, the link to which I gave in my previous post.

How does it feel to be exposed as a fraud?

I second that, and yuou even ignored my post, which you were explicitly asked not to do. Old habits are hard to break, I guess...

It's not just you, either, Resistance. I have a history here on ATS of being ignored by people who hold your viewpoint on things.

I can't for the life of me imagine why though!

Is anyone else noticing this trend?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress:
memory.loc.gov...

Sorry I missed your post. I have not decided who to believe. Let you know when I decide. Why did GW publish things warning against the Freemasons?



[edited big quote -nygdan]

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by TxSecret
SALVATION BY WORKS?

Freemasonry teaches,

"...that everything which man is put to do, if rightly and faithfully done, naturally helps to work out his salvation; that if he obeys the genuine principles of his calling, he will be a good man:..." (Pike, p. 211 ).

Christianity teaches,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." (Ephesians 2: 8,9. See also Romans 11:6).

SEVERAL WAYS TO GOD?

Freemasonry teaches,

"...these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to others, another." (J.S.M. Ward quoted in Freemasonry, The Invisible Cult in our Midst by J. Harris p. 100).

Christianity teaches,

"...I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (Jesus, quoted in John 14:6. See also John 10, 9; 3:36.)

IS JESUS ONLY ONE OF MANY?

Freemasonry teaches,

"It reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require." (Pike, p. 525).

Christianity teaches,

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved". (Acts 4:12; See also 1 Cor. 8:6).

ARE BLOODY OATHS ACCEPTABLE?

Freemasonry teaches: First Degree - Throat cut across, tongue torn out etc. as part of the the sworn. Third Degree - Body severed in twain, bowels taken out etc. as part of the oath sworn. (Harris pp. 50,51).Christianity teaches,

"But I say to you, make no oath at all,...But let your statement be, "yes, yes" or "No, no"; and anything beyond these is of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37; see also James 5:12).

HOW IS THE BIBLE VIEWED?

Freemasonry teaches,

"The Bible is used among Masons as the symbol of the will of God, however it may be expressed, and therefore, whatever to any people expresses that will may be used as a substitute for the Bible in a Masonic Lodge." (Albert Mackey quoted by Harris p. 47).

Therefore any "Holy" book may be on the Masonic altar!

Christianity teaches,

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16; see also Proverbs 30:5,6, Hebrews 4:12).

SHOULD SECRETS BE KEPT

BY CHRISTIANS?

Freemasonry teaches,

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Herneticism and Alchemy conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light from them, and to draw them away from it." (Pike, p. 104,105.)

Christianity teaches,

"Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. Why do you question Me? Question those who have heard what I spoke to them; behold, these know what I said." (John 18:20; see also Matt. 10:27, Luke 12:3, Ephesians 5:11-13).

WHERE IS TRUE LIGHT FOUND?

Freemasonry teaches,

Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah." (Pike p. 741).

However, the Kabalah teachings (Jewish occult mysticism) is condemned by the Bible.

Christianity teaches,

"...Jesus spoke to them saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12. See also John 1:4,5, and Matt. 5:14-16).
[edit on 21-10-2005 by TxSecret]

A lovely copy and paste TxSecret, didn't feel like giving this site:

www.macgregorministries.org...

or was it here:

evangelizeamerica.org...

Credit, where credit is due?

I must have missed where plagiarism is a Christ-like virtue. :shk:

KJV
Matthew 22:21
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's...

Swipe Of The Mouse Monkeys, not just for cutting corners anymore...

Not to get off topic..but i think we are looking at a solid case for EXCESSIVE quoting in the above two posts, which we all know is a no no.. resitance.. all you did was quote on what ML said.. but made no response to it or any sort of contribution in your post

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

Call me lazy Mirthful but I do know what I "cut and pasted".. It's scripture.. do you know what that is? It's also writings from your beloved Pike. Just comparing the two. (You do know the difference between plagiarism and simply comparing two references don't you Mirth?) There are other references I'm not too sure about. Instead of wasting time knocking me for cut/paste why don't you address the material that I presented? Or can you even do that? I guess it's easier for you to attack me than address the information I presented.. am I right?

I didn't cut/paste the WHOLE site either, did you guys notice that?



Axe, I'm looking at your prior post..
"From: The Builders, by Rev. Joseph Fort Newton, pp.68-70 "

I'm trying to find out more about this Joseph Fort Nerton guy.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

Aye, lots of reading to do.




[edit on 21-10-2005 by TxSecret]

On a side note. (Sort of) I've posted a seperate thread about this but I want to rehash it here because it does have some bearing on what we are talking about. This is one of the most amzing reads I have ever dug into and I'm still "researching and understanding" it.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...


Freemasonry is mentioned quite a bit in this writing. Again, read it with an open mind. Sort of an VERY interesting "big picture" if you will.

I'll be getting my hands on a copy of Moral and Dogma tomorrow and will give a good reading over.

One thing I want to discect a little, this deserves a little focus here.

(Cutting and pasting again, you guys know where this came from if you read my prior posts.)

Freemasonry teaches,

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Herneticism and Alchemy conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light from them, and to draw them away from it." (Pike, p. 104,105.)

Christianity teaches,

"Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. Why do you question Me? Question those who have heard what I spoke to them; behold, these know what I said." (John 18:20; see also Matt. 10:27, Luke 12:3, Ephesians 5:11-13).


Lets go further:

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Herneticism and Alchemy "

Is Pike comparing Masonry with religions, -mysteries- , herneticism and Alchemy? I'm sure you guys will start arguing context but I find it VERY interesting to say the least. I didn't think freemasonry was supposed to be anywhere NEAR a religion.

Thoughts?

no one said that masonry isnt anything NEAR a religion.. but that masonry itself isnt a religion. and again it isnt, it is merely and nothing more then a collection of men that belive in the divine in heaven (Or what ever you call paradise) and the divine in man (Are we not all made of the stuff of god?)

as to all this talk about how masons SUPPOSEDLY think that the good work they do will get them into heaven, thats simply not true.. Yeshua said that good works alone shall not get you into heaven.. but he did say do good, and masons do good because it makes them feel good deep in their hearts.. and that feeling makes them want to continue to do good, and when we do good, and we feel in our hearts that we did the right thing.. it opens our hearts to more good.. evil begets evil.. but good begets good, so do good for goodness' sake.. not for Gods

I have no problems with agreeing to the fact that masons do good work.. (seemingly in general) There is however, more here than meets the eye and if you focus on one "tangent" too much you neglect the big picture.