Crop Circles 2005

I didn't see anyone talking about the "crop circle ufo video" here and wanted to point out there is one. I saw this one back in the 90's, this video used to be on the old ATS. I don't believe it's a hoax.
www.patrickwilson.com...

You can google the above phrase to find a video that might work on your computer.

Another good link I found of UFO's and if you scroll down to the bottom, you will find more info on crop circles.
www.iwasabducted.com...

Originally posted by pacman
I didn't see anyone talking about the "crop circle ufo video" here and wanted to point out there is one. I saw this one back in the 90's, this video used to be on the old ATS. I don't believe it's a hoax.

We discussed this video in another thread, and I think it is a hoax. I will repeat what I said in this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

First of all this is a video capture I did from National Geographic Special “Is it real? Crop Circles”.

Creating Balls of Light 8.2MB

Then when asked for more info, this was my reply.

I was able to get a little more info on the clip I posted earlier. The video known as “The Oliver’s Castle Video, and was released on the 11th of August 1996, by John Wheyleigh. The video, which shows balls of light flying over a field where a snowflake crop circle appeared, created quite a stir at the time, but soon many became skeptical. At first John wanted to remain anonymous, but was tracked down later and found he worked at a video studio, and also admitted later he was the one who filmed it and that the video was a hoax. There is a lot of technical analysis available along with the story of how they tracked him down at these sites.

Crop Circle Research
Oliver’s Castle Video Debate

I had no idea the video caused so much controversy at the time. I still say some CC’s are real, but not this one. Still we learn from mistakes as much as we learn from accomplishments.

Originally posted by StarBreather
Ah! Arguments are good because they can be demolished one by one:

Assumption No. 1) You are assuming that this was all done in one shot.
Can you prove this? Do you have aerial photos from the day before they were discovered? At the very least, the “artists” could have easily completed the layout days (or nights) before the actual circles would have been made. All you would need is a GPS, some and some stakes to mark the centers of the circles. Who would know that they were there?

Agricultural fields are never left unwatched for long periods of time.

You are supporting one assumption with another. I hardly think that the farmers are out there 24/7.

So, the large group of conspirators would have to include at least the managers of the fields. Now, multiply by 100 different fields in one year, and its not a conspiracy anymore: it's a hidden cult... And it must be a very serious cult, because those who know, don't talk.

Not all that hidden or secret.

www.circlemakers.org...

www.forteantimes.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.nhne.com...

Assumption 2: I takes a long time to stomp out a circle in wheat.
I think it has been proven time and time again, that this is not true.

Ok, proportion matters: to make a semblance of a circle can be fast. To make one perfect circle takes much more time (more than 30 seconds at least). To make 780 perfect circles takes a hell of a long time, not counting the errors induced by the repetitiveness of the task. Oh, use more people then: then it becomes more difficult to coordinate and easier to discover.

But not impossible. And certainly the skill level of the circle makers has evolved over time as the formations have become increasingly more complex. Given the choice of these being created by:

a) a small group of talented and skilled human artists

Or

b) Aliens

I will go with the human every time.

Assumption 3: this was all done at night.
Again, like assumption 1, you have no definite proof of this. I take it that these fields are out n the middle of nowhere. Who’s out there to notice anything?

See above: no fields are "in the middle of nowhere". Some formations especially, appear near villages and roads (and astronomical observatories, and visited places like Stonehenge!). Explain how all these cases go unobserved, and then are suddenly noticed.

Like I said, it has been clearly demonstrated that these formations can be created by a few people in a short period of time. At the same time you have no proof of these “suddenly appearing.” Thus it is possible that some of these were created over a succession of nights and the resultant formation was not discovered until a few days or even weeks had passed. You can not rule this out conclusively, thus the complexity of the design has nothing to do with weather they are real or not.

Remember in the very beginning of the fad, they were just simple circles. Thus, if the complexity of the design is an indicator of its “genuineness,” Then by that logic, those simple circles from back in the ‘80s are all hoaxes.

Assumption 4: There was only one or two people involved.
What if there were more? The preponderance of these complex designs suggests that there is an organized group perpetrating this hoax.

The more people, the huger the circle-making conspiracy would need to be, until by these lines of reasoning you admit that it must involve 1000s of circle-makers. Where are they? Some say after the fact: "it was us". So what? These allegations must not be taken at face value.

They are out there. See the above links.

Assumption No. 5: This design was created in 4 hours.
Again, what proof do you have? What if it took 9 hours? (from 9:00 pm to 6:00am) if 8 people participated, that would average 10 minutes per circle. Since most of the circles are in fact very small. That is more than enough time.

In the case of complex designs near Stonehenge, the period of creation was less than 1 day. But in such a public place, how could the design go unnoticed? It is not that it took only 1 day, but increasing the time would only increase the chances of discovery.

Again, the task would be challenging and difficult, but not impossible. That is what drives he people that create these, the challenge.

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Originally posted by Frosty
Materials: Stake and String to mark spots off from center, and boards with rope tied and long enough to reach chest.

Prerequisites: Sketch of design overlaying diagram of field

Other Materials: Beer, car

It would take about 4 people in my mind to work in quarter sections, seems like the fastest me0hod, 6 or more would mean that you would be taking 2 cars.

There are enough nonbelievers of the alien creation theory here to take part in an experiment and prove that the time frame capable for completion can be fairly short, though proximity and the wantingness of breaking the law disables this.

People have done this, there are atleast two documentaries i can think of that have various methods tried and tested. One took 2 days to plot and then a day to create and it looked pretty crap plus they did during the day with a team, the other tried to simulate the microwaved bent nodes found in true designs, they couldn't do it.

It's not evidence to assume you could do these things. Debunkers need to do more than say 'i could do it' to prove their point.

These are points debunkers need to address:

1. Isolated circles - how do you make them without creating a path?

Walk very carefully.
Also notice that the tops of those plants droop over giving the impression that they are a lot closer together then they really are.

2. Bent nodes - why are they exploded out on real designs and rather than being crushed flat, they are bent at the node?
www.cropcirclequest.com...

I am not a botanist, but it only took a few minutes via google to learn that that swelling growth is called a callus and occurs when the plant suffers mechanical damage (like from hail).
You (or more properly, the so-called cerealologists, have to account for this well understood botanical phenomena.

3. Spun and weaved crops - a lot of detail for a plank of wood in the middle of the night don't you think?

Are you kidding me?

I could do that in a minute. I bet you could too, it you tried.

4. Chilbolton Face - No reference points on the ground, this is not a matter of a centred stick and a walking a circle. How was it done overnight without a guide in the sky?

What proof do you have that this was done over one night?

What proof do you have that there are no reference points?

Although they tend to be expensive, a survey grade GPS system could be used with great accuracy. However, an even simpler system would be to simple go out on two nights. On the first night, you lay out your stakes, lines and reference points. Since you haven’t trampled any wheat, no one would know that these are out there. The second night, you go out and trample the wheat in the desired pattern and pull out all of your stakes and lines.

You grossly underestimate the ingenuity and skill of these people.

Besides, do you really think that that face was created by an alien artist?




[edit on 9-8-2005 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
People have done this, there are atleast two documentaries i can think of that have various methods tried and tested. One took 2 days to plot and then a day to create and it looked pretty crap plus they did during the day with a team, the other tried to simulate the microwaved bent nodes found in true designs, they couldn't do it.

1) My point exactly on the plot part. You could take as long as you wanted to do that because who is going to notice? It you plot it out using numbered stakes no one would know.


2) ”it looked pretty crap “ Yeah, I bet if you or I tried to copy the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, it would “look pretty crap” also. Just because the researchers that tried to duplicate them didn’t have the artistic skill or the experience to make it look better, doesn’t mean that it is impossible.


3) ”the other tried to simulate the microwaved bent nodes found in true designs, they couldn't do it.” I wonder if they waited long enough. Given a few days, the plants would have had a chance to recover and develop callus tissue around the bent nodes. I’m willing to bet that if they waited a bit, they would have found the same conditions that they find in other circles.



[edit on 9-8-2005 by HowardRoark]

[edit on 9-8-2005 by HowardRoark]

People, don't get sucked in by HowardRoark. He/she's a professional arguer. Unfortunately he/she has developed an interest in crop circles now. There's a counter point to every point and HR will be more than happy to tell you what it is ad nauseum. You've been warned.

Howard, I bet you're one of those sports gravy trainers/bandwagon jumpers that's a Lakers fan, then all the sudden a Pistons fan. You're a Rams fan, then all the sudden you're a Patriots fan. You're a Marlins fan, then all the sudden you're a Red Sox fan. You get the point, always safe!

Peace

[edit on 9-8-2005 by Dr Love]

Nah, I’ve been a Cubs fan since Herman Franks was the manager, A Bulls fan since the days of Norm an Artis, and a Bears fan since Bobby Douglas was rushing for a 100 yards a game.

... you know... I don't really care if I get tossed for this. The TRUTH is more important then my frelling account here.

If you look at Howards posting trends, he only posts in to certain threads on certain subjects and does nothing but ridicule the people who either believe in the subject of the thread or who are trying to understand the subject in the thread.

Think about it... do you go over to YarnBarn.com and mock people there over which types of sweaters or scarfs they happen to be knitting?

You wouldn't waste your time. Take a look at his stance on ALL of these topics... he doesn't beleive in ANY of them, and does nothing but try to humiliate those who are trying to discuss the subject matter..

9-11

CropCircles

ChemTrails

IN FACT, personally I've found that if Howard is making fun of the subject material, that means its REALLY important and that the government just would rather you forget about it and go back to sleep.. otherwise you'll be made fun of and laughed at.. ostracized from society "What the hell is wrong with you for believing in something so stupid?" ... in fact...

Once during a chemtrail thread that I had started.. I gave up trying to have a regular mature intellectual discussion on the subject.. "You win Howard. You are right. Whatever!" ... and then I got a U2U from him asking me to come back to the thread so that he could punk me around a little bit more.

I think he probablly gets paid on how active he has to be.. so therefore if there are no threads for him to puke on he isn't getting paid.. hence the U2U I got.

He has no REAL interest in ANY of these subjects as far as I can tell. He is here to disrupt, he is here to "change the subject" and make you feel stupid for even entertaining any of these ideas.

Look at how often he IS ACCUSED of being a disruption agent. And THINK about how peoples gut instinct about other people is usually right. And how often he'll say "Yeah, soon as someone accuses me of being an agent, I figure I've usually won the debate."

I mean he is either an agent or a huge loser.. one or the other.

Sorry to say... but Howard.. look at your damn posts and explain yourself for once.. EXPLAIN WHY you have no interest in any thing that is being discussed here other then to shoot it all down. Is it just that you get a little high from telling people they are stupid for not going along with the sleep, work, eat routeen and trying to think about these subjects? WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE HOWARD?!

-VMX

To me node bending is the weakest argument a cerealologist can put up. Nodes bend thats what theyre for. Cereal grains arent wood theyre ment to bend. Take a look at the weeds and grass in your yard. Now step on them. They wont break theyll bend and return to their upright state. Stomp on them and theyll bend and wont turn fully up. Lets see an example. You know how when you mow grass you get lines. Thats caused by the lawnmower pulling the grass in a direction and then the grass scattering the light to different places.
Since cereal grains are really just over sized grass they can be pushed into lines, circles, and shapes in the same way pulling grass can create lines. Here is a comparison




You can see that people make cropcircles all the time. But they usually use grass. And I can assure you no grass was broken during the making of that flag

Originally posted by Vis Mega
... you know... I don't really care if I get tossed for this. The TRUTH is more important then my frelling account here.

If you look at Howards posting trends, he only posts in to certain threads on certain subjects and does nothing but ridicule the people who either believe in the subject of the thread or who are trying to understand the subject in the thread.

I try not to ridicule people, I actually do. But sometimes people make themselves look foolish anyway.

Once during a chemtrail thread that I had started.. I gave up trying to have a regular mature intellectual discussion on the subject.. "You win Howard. You are right. Whatever!" ... and then I got a U2U from him asking me to come back to the thread so that he could punk me around a little bit more.

I was perfectly willing to have a muture discussion of the phenomina with you. Everytime I tried to discuss the subject with using science and logic, I was accused of being a government “dis-info” agent.

Look at how often he IS ACCUSED of being a disruption agent.

Yeah, that usually happens after I bring up a valid point that the supporters of a particular idea are unable to refute. It is called the ad hominem argument. If you cant counter the facts, attack your opponent.

And THINK about how peoples gut instinct about other people is usually right. And how often he'll say "Yeah, soon as someone accuses me of being an agent, I figure I've usually won the debate."

Well if it wasn’t true, I wouldn’t say it. Rather than wasting time and effort on personal attacks why don’t you try to counter my points?

I mean he is either an agent or a huge loser.. one or the other.

See, what I mean? Out come the insults. What is the point of this post, Vis? You are not contributing to this thread.

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE HOWARD?!

-VMX

To annoy you, Vis, to annoy you!

Seriously. Why shouldn’t I be here?

People have put forth various propositions that I find are lacking in evidence. Evidence is then presented that is lacking in quality or credibility.

Assumptions are made that are not always supportable.

Conclusions are jumped to that are not always logical.

Why shouldn’t I point these things out?

Dont worry Howard I appreciate your efforts. Your persistent and logical thats a good combination. I hope you stick around

... because all you seem to want to do is shoot down ALL subject material that ATS is here to discuss. You don't 'discuss' it. You have already made up your mind. There is nothing that will change it. All you seem to want to do is further your (TPTB's actually) opinion over and over again.

YOU ARE NOT FACINATED BY ANY OF THIS STUFF!

That is why you should not be here. Because almost EVERYONE ELSE HERE, is either on the fence, or a believer, believes in ONE phenominon but perhaps NOT another one.... but the facts are... PEOPLE HERE, are INTERESTED in the unexplained.. they are interested in finding out the truth.

YOU, already seem to KNOW the truth about all of this stuff. So why waste your time discussing it with us? WHY HOWARD.. WHY bang your head against the wall over and over again trying to get through to us?

Why do you NEVER start threads on any of this material itself, UNLESS it is to discredit it?

So why not just hang out on the science forums at Scientific American or something, and just make fun of us from over there? Why come here, only to repeat the SAME governement lines on...

Building 7

Chemtrails

Cropcircles

... why do it? I mean, did you think we are all so damn stupid that we didn't HEAR the 'offical line' the FIRST DAMN TIME?

So you just HAVE to come over here and stress it over and over and over again?

I don't doubt that you are here just to annoy me.. me and anyone else who 'want to believe' who 'want the truth'. And you do it... so... what up? That somehow satisfies you?

Kinda sick, don't you think?

Can't you find something better to do? Something more productive then just repeating the same old "swamp gas" explanation over for us because we didn't 'get it' the first time?

Notice how he's changed the subject... or AT LEAST.. gotten me to do it for him?

So am I wrong guys?


ON THE SUBJECT OF CROP CIRCLES


I keep looking at the shots where you can see people IN the formation.

And I keep thinking.. "There is no way, that those little creatures can create a formation in the amount of time that it takes to do it, without being discovered doing it in the process. Maybe, because of the amount of time they have been doing it for (the cropcircle making team) they are now able to have gone from making simple circles to making these enourmous designs.. and.. still have not been caught.. or perhaps had to abandon a formation while in the process of making it (ever see an INCOMPLETE formation before?) ... so... no... no way 'people' are making these things. At least not people with nothing better to do who are participating in a 'hoax', there must be something to these... has to be something bigger going on here."


Doug and Dave couldn't find their way OUT of a cornfield never mind being able to make these formations.


They are beautifull aren't they. Utterly amazing. Too bad we'll probablly never know what in the hell they mean.


At least they exist.. its one of those things that keeps this planet from getting boring right?


-VMX

You have voted HowardRoark for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Good and logical points you've made HR. And you too Vegemite (I ran out of votes sorry)

I see crop circles as nothing more then simple geometry on a large scale. Obviously it takes more then just two people. They've got to be good at math and geometry, so they arn't just some high school punks. Most likely some university students using some of there knowledge for fun.

Students love to play pranks, for example engineering students from UBC would hang cars from bridges with a few cables, using there engineering knowledge to do it and as far as I know, most people don't know how they do it. They can get to a bridge, suspend the car under it and get out and not get caught by police. Although done at night, there's still some traffic, being in the middle of a city and all. So just imagine being out in a less busy country side with little to no witnesses.

I don't believe crop circles are hoaxes, just that they are done by humans.

Vis Mega: You don't have any right to tell some one they shouldn't be here. Are you going to tell me to go too? I think that's very childish. People have differnt opinions and they like to share them. I do believe in aliens, but I don't believe they write things in wheat fields.

Originally posted by jra
*snipped*
I see crop circles as nothing more then simple geometry on a large scale. Obviously it takes more then just two people. They've got to be good at math and geometry, so they arn't just some high school punks. Most likely some university students using some of there knowledge for fun.

Students love to play pranks, for example engineering students from UBC would hang cars from bridges with a few cables, using there engineering knowledge to do it and as far as I know, most people don't know how they do it. They can get to a bridge, suspend the car under it and get out and not get caught by police. Although done at night, there's still some traffic, being in the middle of a city and all. So just imagine being out in a less busy country side with little to no witnesses.

I don't believe crop circles are hoaxes, just that they are done by humans.
*snipped*

I love this. If man made the crop circle I was interested in (Barbury Castle) then why didn't they find the things I found within it.
Let me explain...
The Barbury Castle crop circle has a formation that looks like a triangle, on one point is a circle, on the other a circle with curved spokes (that gave me the impression of spinning) and the third has what looks like a spiral staircase (giving me the impression of phasing).

Now if some kids did this then my hats off to them since they helped me in my own research immensely. What confuses me though is how they could send me that message and not know the message they are sending?

Never mind the 19.5 degree redundancy which led me to a base 13 mathematical model that is really like re-inventing the wheel. (using 4,680 degrees before a cycle completes rather than the 360 degrees we understand as a cirlce)
Again, my hats off to them.
There is a reason so many try so hard to make disbelievers out of us all, there's something they don't want us to see or accept. Their own ignorance doesn't come into play since when challenged they don't back down. There is motive behind those who want you to believe other than what you want to believe, perhaps someone can explain where that motive comes from?
Regardless, if it's a bunch of kids making crop circles (at least as far as the Barbury Castle) then I would sincerely like to thank them since they subconsciously led me to realizations of seeming irrelevant material that came to my subconscious mind and guided me to an understanding. Well done! Spoof or proof, who cares if the end result seems to have a tangible affect.
This is just like my buying into RCH's Mar's face, whether its there or not, the 19.5 degree signal reached me and got me into looking into it in the first place. Ironic when you think that out of bogus claims comes uniqueness in conceptualizing a different means don't you think?
Hey, hit me with all your BS, maybe I'll find something of hidden value in it too.

edit: I aoplogize since my snip might have inadvertantly attributed the quote to another.

[edit on 9-8-2005 by keybored]

Howard, please make an effort to be a better debunker:

I said that cultivated fields are not left unwatched, which is a fact. To this fact, you counter personal opinion like "I hardly think that the farmers are out there 24/7". What do you know? You think that the crops grow by themselves? But with an answer like this, what you are trying to do is change the level of the discussion from fact to unsubstantiated opinion.

You ignore the issue of the large numbers of people who would need to be in the know, and give a series of links to articles consisting of 10% fact and 90% fluff. Typically, a thing called "special report" is not a report at all, but more written like a wide-eyed personal diary. If you were a real debunker, you would recognize the signs of cargo-cultism and commercial bandwagoning, but you don't.

780 circles of different proportions spaninng a distance of half a kilometer from end to end: this should make you think, but unfortunately it doesn't. You prefer to ignore the contradiction with your stated parameters: "a few persons", "a few hours". With a design of this complexity, those parameters are insufficient. You also note (correctly) that the circles have been increasing in complexity and you attribute this to the evolving skill levels of the circlemakers. But somewhere in this explanation, you lose track of the meaning of the word "skill". With more recent circles, it is not even the same kind of skill, it is a different technology altogether. I think that the first circles are simpler because of the need to provide plausible deniabilty for people like you, so that you can pursue your own closed logic and still feel good about it.

When I called your attention to the designs near Stonehenge and Chilbolton, you say that people create the circles because of the challenge. This must be the ultimate justification for just about anything. Usually a challenge is constructive in some sense, especially when extended over long periods of time. To express the object of the challenge, there need to be ideas, methods, guidelines. This information is usually very hard to hide, it outflows by itself. Even the most secret of the secret societies are more well-known than the "real" circlemakers.

Your use of the word "challenge", just as your use of the word "skill", are very superficial. Not only your argumentation does not make sense logically, it is also somewhat crippled semantically. Now I know the reason why, when reading what you wrote in your previous posts, I have that uneasy impression of dislocation, of a certain kind of cognitive mismatch that comes from hearing the words of someone who seems not to have a clue what is real or not. Someone already touched this issue by noticing that you exhibited the traits of a "sports gravy trainer"...

I'm tempted to get caught up in this argument (are they genuine or not) but arguing with people who obviously haven't looked at this with an open mind or done much research is pointless.
I've studied crop circles for over 4 years reading every book available, watching every film and TV program produced. I've read the scientific literature dating back to the late 80's. I worked with Nancy Talbot from BLT Research on producing papers and pages for the BLT website (www.bltresearch.com...).
I've spent countless hours speaking with Nancy Talbot on the phone discussing her findings and the findings of other researchers and I can honestly say without reservation that there is much more than meets the eye with crop circles.
Yes yes yes, many of them are "hoaxed" by people for various reasons, but there is so much evidence to support the genuine ones including scientific evaluation of physical and chemical changes in the plants, eyewitness testimony, etc.
Here's a link to a short slideshow with basic details and details why they cannot all be man-made "hoaxes"...

theconversation.org... (requires Flash player)

For those too lazy to do their own research, here are some links on the subject...

www.cropcircle-archive.com...
www.bltresearch.com...
www.lovely.clara.net...
www.temporarytemples.co.uk...
www.cccrn.ca...
home.wanadoo.nl...

For the record, I have no problem with people trying to debunk crop circles (or anything for that matter) and the "debunker(s)" on this thread have been polite. But I would ask that people search with an open mind. Skeptism only serves to keep you grounded, but if it's your only tool, you'll only see what you want to see. That same thing goes for the believers. Seek the middle ground people. Without balance a wheel will stop or disintigrate.

Peace,

~Jammer+

Oh, and if you haven't seen the latest interesting formations, here they are:

Someone posted earlier regarding circles that were not perfect. Very good observation and ironically helps support the non-human design theory.
In many formations, measurements of the circle dimensions have turned up elliptoids... (fat on one side and skinnier on the other). That by itself is not that interesting but in combination with the other facts within the same formation (e.g. no tracks or trace of human beings, physical and chemical changes in the plants, complex geometry, etc.) the elliptical circles within the formation where directly proporational geometrically to the lay of the land. In simpler terms the elliptical "circles" were only found where the ground was sloped meaning that from high up in the air, the circles look round. But from different angles and the ground they are elliptical. This suggests that the creation mechanism came from above and designed the formation such that from the air, the design looks perfect. Interesting, yes?

To better understand this, simply take a flashlight and shine it on a book directly above (perpendicular) the books cover. Now tilt the book and watch how the shape of the light hitting the book changes from a circle to an ellipse. Same principle but on a massive scale.

Peace,

~Jammer+

No, that suggests that the circle was formed with a length of rope and a single center point.

BTW, elipses are not that hard to do either

Hello jammerman,

I personally think that genuine crop circles are really connected with the strange balls of light often seen above these formations. I would be interested to know what you think about this.

By the way thank you for participating in this thread. It's nice to have a person with some experience and knowledge to discuss seriously this subject.

PS : The last two formations are, once again, beautiful.

I've been watching this thread since it first showed up on the board and I would like to thank Musclor and others for posting the pics of the crop circles for this year. Good job guys and gals!!

Quite frankly, these morons (Doug & Doug and the rest of the crop stompers) are getting on my nerves. I would like to see the farmers turn around and sue these idiots for the damage they have done to their crops. Sure I have heard them say that farmers were paying for the circles but I am guessing they have no documentation to back that up, like reciepts books, contracts or consent forms. I also bet they don't report these transactions to the taxman, since they are in fact perpetrating a hoax. They should all be brought up on charges of trespassing and damage to private property, made to pay damages and be serving jail time. These fields are not only the farmers' livelyhood but food that the world doesn't need ruined. These braggarts need to be made an example of.

Ok off of my soapbox now, had to get it out of my system.