Crop Circles 2005

Howard,

This is a discussion board where people are free to talk about what ever they wish. Nobody has to prove anything to anybody, we are just discussing a topic that interests us & trying to make our own minds up about exactly what are the origins of crop circles.
You obviously have no serious interest in this topic apart from trying to derail people from investigating it further, so why are you here?
Go find another topic to debunk & leave people to discuss things without fear of ridicule.

Lonegunman, I realize that some people believe that crop circles are created by aliens, not because of the evidence, but because they want to believe that.

That’s OK. , but that doesn’t meant that I have to believe that.

I personally believe that there are a bunch of people out there laughing their buts off at the UFO believer’s reactions to what they have created (the hoaxers).

I don’t believe that I have ridiculed anyone for believing that crop circles are created by aliens. However, if I want to point out logical failures or questionable assumptions, then I will. That is not ridicule. That is just pointing out logical failures and questionable assumptions.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
Here's something to ponder, if this formation was man made allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness the construction time left should be around four hours.

Assumption No. 5: This design was created in 4 hours.
Again, what proof do you have?

I read in Colin Andrew's book Signs of Contact that the multi-julion(correct name?) formation appeared within 45 minutes in the daytime. I can't say how true it is, but according to Colin, he and his pilot flew over the area on there way to photograph another circle, then saw it on the way back. They said they would have noticed it the first time. I will double check tonight, and someone correct me if I'm wrong.

www.cropcircleinfo.com...

I personally believe that there are a bunch of people out there laughing their buts off at the UFO believer’s reactions to what they have created (the hoaxers).

wheres your proof ? Just becouse some guys claim they made some of them you are dismissing the whole thing

why dont you debunk the signs, that make a crop circle a genuine phenomenon? Isotopes, no breaking of the crops...

You wanna be a debunker? DEBUNK IT !!!!



or just do yourself a favour....

I'd be happy to look at any credible evidence.

Prove it.


Crop circle dictionary

are you suggesting me to buy a crop circle coloring book? No one said there are no human made ones you know

any comment on these anomalies at all from you????

www.lovely.clara.net...


paranormal.about.com...

From your source:

The tremendous application of local heat is also responsible for altering the local water table, as millions of gallons of surface and sub-surface water is evaporated. With the heat and electro-magnetic frequencies applied, it has been scientifically documented that soil samples taken from within crop circles show changes to its crystalline structure and mineral composition. Expert analysis concludes that such a process requires temperatures of 1500º C and sub-soil pressure typically found in strata thousands of years old. Evidence even exists of four non-naturally occuring, short-life radioactive isotopes in the soil inside genuine crop circles (these dissipate after three or four hours, causing no adverse side effects); in fact, the soil in and around them appears to have been baked. Hardly the kind of anomalies created by pranksters with planks!

Are they kidding? Just how are they determining that “millions of gallons of surface and sub-surface water is evaporated?” if this water was exactly 1 foot deep, that would be three acres of water. How do they know how much water was there in the first place and how much water was missing afterwards?

As for all of the so-called isotope data and plant node data, from what I’ve seen and read, those studies are hopelessly biased.

Where is the unbiased data?

Crop circles alter the local electromagnetic field; often compasses cannot locate north, and cameras and cellular phones malfunction. Whole packs of fresh batteries are drained in minutes, and the frequecnies involved have been known to affect helicopter and aircraft equipment. Radio frequencies are markedly different inside their space; local farm animals avoid the crop circles or simply act agitated hours before one materializes; and car batteries in entire villages fail to operate the morning after one is found nearby. In some major events, entire towns have been left without power.

Is there any independent proof of these claims?

As for the magnetic field data, I have some experience with that type of equipment. Is any of the actual data available?
I know from personal experience that the following is true:

Fresh agricultural tilling (plowing and disking) does modify the distribution of magnetic and conductivity constituents in the soil and this disturbance is reflected as cultivation or crop “marks” when such fields are surveyed. These tend to become less prominent over the months as the topsoil “stabilizes and homogenizes” due to weathering. However, geophysical survey does tend to record the effects of agriculture long after a field has been fallowed. We regard these crop striations as an important record of site impacts and not simply noise. Nevertheless in designing field strategies which will involve geophysical survey, we recommend that surface scarification (for example to facilitate controlled surface collecting) not be used, at least until the geophysical surveys have been completed.

www.crai-ky.com...
I wonder if they established a control when they measured the magnetic field in the crops. In other words, did they check to see if they would get similar disturbances from a “hoaxed” circle?
I am willing to bet that the disturbance of the plant in a “hoaxed” circle would produce the same effect.
Again, all of this so called evidence suffers from one fatal flaw.

It is biased. The research on the “nodes” is a good case in point. When double blind techniques are used, the researchers are unable to distinguish the plants outside the circle from those inside the circle.

i am all for triple checking all of this!!!

Why is it not happening

Until then, you cannot simply say bwah peeps make these....too many strange cases...well at least for me....

and like frayed1 said in another topic...too many flawless victories

...and way too many stunning pictures...yah...as if....maybe on a paper

I mean suit yourself but maybe you are jumping to conclusions too fast. Ive seen a team of scientists in a documentary trying to recreate all of the mentioned anomalies and they failed....besides needing lights and a large explosion to even try to do it...

....yeah maybe theyre all in on it, paid scientists, payed TV crew, all of them, its possible....

....but maybe kids making the known humad made ones are a case of monkey see monkey do....

peace

Ah! Arguments are good because they can be demolished one by one:

Assumption No. 1) You are assuming that this was all done in one shot.
Can you prove this? Do you have aerial photos from the day before they were discovered? At the very least, the “artists” could have easily completed the layout days (or nights) before the actual circles would have been made. All you would need is a GPS, some and some stakes to mark the centers of the circles. Who would know that they were there?

Agricultural fields are never left unwatched for long periods of time. So, the large group of conspirators would have to include at least the managers of the fields. Now, multiply by 100 different fields in one year, and its not a conspiracy anymore: it's a hidden cult... And it must be a very serious cult, because those who know, don't talk.

Assumption 2: I takes a long time to stomp out a circle in wheat.
I think it has been proven time and time again, that this is not true.

Ok, proportion matters: to make a semblance of a circle can be fast. To make one perfect circle takes much more time (more than 30 seconds at least). To make 780 perfect circles takes a hell of a long time, not counting the errors induced by the repetitiveness of the task. Oh, use more people then: then it becomes more difficult to coordinate and easier to discover.

Assumption 3: this was all done at night.
Again, like assumption 1, you have no definite proof of this. I take it that these fields are out n the middle of nowhere. Who’s out there to notice anything?

See above: no fields are "in the middle of nowhere". Some formations especially, appear near villages and roads (and astronomical observatories, and visited places like Stonehenge!). Explain how all these cases go unobserved, and then are suddenly noticed.

Assumption 4: There was only one or two people involved.
What if there were more? The preponderance of these complex designs suggests that there is an organized group perpetrating this hoax.

The more people, the huger the circle-making conspiracy would need to be, until by these lines of reasoning you admit that it must involve 1000s of circle-makers. Where are they? Some say after the fact: "it was us". So what? These allegations must not be taken at face value.

Assumption No. 5: This design was created in 4 hours.
Again, what proof do you have? What if it took 9 hours? (from 9:00 pm to 6:00am) if 8 people participated, that would average 10 minutes per circle. Since most of the circles are in fact very small. That is more than enough time.

In the case of complex designs near Stonehenge, the period of creation was less than 1 day. But in such a public place, how could the design go unnoticed? It is not that it took only 1 day, but increasing the time would only increase the chances of discovery.


"There is something that is acting to kill off mysteries. Perhaps always, and perhaps not always, it can be understood in commonplace terms. If luminous things that move like flying birds are attracting attention, a Mr. Cannell appears, and says that he has found a luminous owl. "
Charles Hoy Fort - 1931

Originally posted by Hal9000
I read in Colin Andrew's book Signs of Contact that the multi-julion(correct name?) formation appeared within 45 minutes in the daytime.

I was wrong about the story. It was in 1996 when a doctor that chartered a flight to take pictures of ancient sights. They were on their way back and they saw this Julia Set formation at 6:00PM. They had flown over the same area earlier at 5:15PM, but it was not there. It was a 600-foot formation across the road from Stonehenge. People were stopping along the highway when they saw the formation. But no one saw anyone make the circle, and it wasn't seen until 6:00PM in the evening.



Colin Andrews lists several reasons why it would be almost impossible for it to be manmade. One being that Stonehenge and surrounding fields are guarded 24/7. And a surveying engineer that studied it said because of the complexity it would have taken 2 days to layout the design.

This is one that makes you wonder how it got there. Just one point though, there was no sighting of any UFO either.

Some are man made, some are alien. The high levels of radiation and the things done to the crop stems in some of the cases are not caused by humans, but something very non-human.

There! Thread closed!

[edit on 8-8-2005 by meshuggah1324]

I have been watchibg this thread since it started and I have to say I am in favor of what HowardRoark says...These are works of vandalism and in fact they have devistated some farmers early yields by damaging crops and by all the people arrive to view it. ..plus the one overiding factor, these things are not that perfect, if you look at some of them they are justa little off. If you have the means to travel through space to our planet you think you could get the geometry exact...and why the hell would you leave a pattern in a damn field why wouldn't you do something a bit more dramatic like going on Tele.

It not right to go tramping on something that people make thier living on.

not all crop circles are man made. and yeah, stay off of other people's farms.

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
Here's something to ponder, if this formation was man made allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness the construction time left should be around four hours. Given that there are over 400 circles some of which span approx 70ft in diameter that would mean that one of those circles would need to be created every 30 seconds and that's not even allowing any time for the surveying, purely flattening, this formation pushes the envelope and that's a MASSIVE understatement... my brain hurts!

Originally posted by HowardRoark

You are making a number of assumptions that you have not proven.

Assumption No. 1) You are assuming that this was all done in one shot.
Can you prove this?

Can you prove they weren't Howard?

Is this how your going to treat Crop Circles now? Just throwing around aimless questions? Asking for proof when you offer none yourself?

Assumption 2: I takes a long time to stomp out a circle in wheat.
I think it has been proven time and time again, that this is not true.

Who has proven that? The circlemakers who do this for a living have on their site the crop circles which defy all their logic, they state exactly how long some of them would take a human to make. Do some research Howard, YOUR making claims you can't substantiate now. I'm sure it doesnt take long to squash crops with a plank of wood, but i'm sure it takes a LONG TIME to bend them using microwaves. So again...

Assumption 3: this was all done at night.
Again, like assumption 1, you have no definite proof of this. I take it that these fields are out n the middle of nowhere. Who’s out there to notice anything?

No they aren't all done at night, your right. Some are done in broad day light. Again, do some research, you just sound really ignorant at this point.

Assumption 4: There was only one or two people involved.
What if there were more? The preponderance of these complex designs suggests that there is an organized group perpetrating this hoax.

More people would make more commotion wouldn't they? So now you believe it's a crack team of many that go around doing this and have never been detected? Again... You should of stuck to less people doing it, that would help in the 'secrecy' part of your bassless assumptions.

Assumption No. 5: This design was created in 4 hours.
Again, what proof do you have? What if it took 9 hours? (from 9:00 pm to 6:00am) if 8 people participated, that would average 10 minutes per circle. Since most of the circles are in fact very small. That is more than enough time.

Oh, you've made some have you? Well go gather 8 people and i'll give you 9 hours in the DAY time in a field near me in which you can make that EXACT same pattern and then you might have something worth contributing to this, until then your just pulling rubbish out of where the sun don't shine.

Admit it, you HAVE NO CLUE and it frustrates the hell out of you so you'd rather blame others for believing and looking at these from a different angle than allow your feeble life to step outside the box it's stuck in. Just do it Howard, take the biggest step of your life and try learning something new rather than being stuck trying to prove everything to your limitations.

Sucks when debunker logic doesn't hold any water doesn't Howard??

Hi there TSM. Say seems to me HowardRoark has opinions on stuff and mayhap's you have opinions on him?..do yah think.

If HowardRoark has made any mistakes of a nature requiring attention there are Moderators at ATS who will look into it - O.K.?

Thanks Buddy..

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas

Hi there TSM. Say seems to me HowardRoark has opinions on stuff and mayhap's you have opinions on him?..do yah think.

If HowardRoark has made any mistakes of a nature requiring attention there are Moderators at ATS who will look into it - O.K.?

Thanks Buddy..

Dallas

When you become a moderator, you can talk above people. Until then, understand Howard 'Where's the proof' Roak's tatics and please quit trying to be virtuous.

He doesn't try to prove anything, he tries to disprove other peoples beliefs and will go around and around in circles until people give up - he's a professional debunker but in this case, he hasn't got a leg to stand on. You will watch this thread turn to mash potatos if Howard tries to keep it alive, watch the known proof be ignored as he introduces pages and pages of pointless information from other professional debunkers.

When he talks crap, he'll be replied to with the same level respect.
If a moderator has a problem then they will deal with him and me, i don't care but i'm not going to let Howard act bureaucratic about something he's obvious spent no time researching just because he doesn't believe it either.

Why he's even bothering to 'enlighten' us should be the moderators first clue as to his true intentions.

Your right. I'm not a Moderator. And I stand corrected by you. But leave him alone anyway if you please.

Dallas

Materials: Stake and String to mark spots off from center, and boards with rope tied and long enough to reach chest.

Prerequisites: Sketch of design overlaying diagram of field

Other Materials: Beer, car

It would take about 4 people in my mind to work in quarter sections, seems like the fastest me0hod, 6 or more would mean that you would be taking 2 cars.

There are enough nonbelievers of the alien creation theory here to take part in an experiment and prove that the time frame capable for completion can be fairly short, though proximity and the wantingness of breaking the law disables this.

Originally posted by Frosty
Materials: Stake and String to mark spots off from center, and boards with rope tied and long enough to reach chest.

Prerequisites: Sketch of design overlaying diagram of field

Other Materials: Beer, car

It would take about 4 people in my mind to work in quarter sections, seems like the fastest me0hod, 6 or more would mean that you would be taking 2 cars.

There are enough nonbelievers of the alien creation theory here to take part in an experiment and prove that the time frame capable for completion can be fairly short, though proximity and the wantingness of breaking the law disables this.

People have done this, there are atleast two documentaries i can think of that have various methods tried and tested. One took 2 days to plot and then a day to create and it looked pretty crap plus they did during the day with a team, the other tried to simulate the microwaved bent nodes found in true designs, they couldn't do it.

It's not evidence to assume you could do these things. Debunkers need to do more than say 'i could do it' to prove their point.

These are points debunkers need to address:

1. Isolated circles - how do you make them without creating a path?


2. Bent nodes - why are they exploded out on real designs and rather than being crushed flat, they are bent at the node?
www.cropcirclequest.com...




3. Spun and weaved crops - a lot of detail for a plank of wood in the middle of the night don't you think?



4. Chilbolton Face - No reference points on the ground, this is not a matter of a centred stick and a walking a circle. How was it done overnight without a guide in the sky?










[edit on 9-8-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

Well done and researched. The node shift or explosion is known by some but just the same good work.

Dallas