On UFO Secrecy and your right to know

originally posted by: schuyler2

originally posted by: putnam6
Who is arguing that we have a right to know?

ATS used to be about calling out the BS and trying to find out what the phenomenon is.

Nearly everyone who is for "disclosure." It is a most common refrain. ATS has been rather ineffectual about finding out what the phenomenon is. Raising your fist at "The Man" and claiming a right to know hasn't really workd very well.

LOL you make it sound as if ATS "acts" on the discussions about UAPs and can push buttons. 

Was that ever part of its mission statement?

It's about the discussion and the exchange of ideas and thoughts of like-minded curious people it's not a movement it's just a message board

No more no less

originally posted by: kwaka
a reply to: schuyler2

You can't take away something you don't have in the first place.

So are you saying I don't have a right to self determination? What has your government done to you?

I can't follow your constant leaps of logic. What does self-determination have to do with another entity (government) keeping information from you? As to your second question: All sorts of things I don't like, including withholding information I would like to have. But do I have the "right" to that information? I can't see that anyone has established that.

The closest you can get to establishing a "right" to information is the Freedom of Informaton Act. But that act has clearly defined exceptions delineated in the act (and previously discussed here). "National Defense" is a principle big enough to drive a truck through. If giving out a piece of information has the potential to harm national defense, that justifies keeping it secret. That nullifies any right to know.

But wait; there's more!

Even if TPTB deemed that " the secret" really wasn't secret enough to withhold it from the public, if releasing that secret would betray "sources and methods" used to obtain that secret, it is still secret. So if the government has a secret telescope on Mars that has been taking these really cool UFO pictures that are otherwise of little consequence, they won't be released just because that telescope is a secret itself.

So far, in the last eighty years, no one has come up with a way to establish we have the "right" to this information. A lot of people claim they do, but when you look into it, there's no such thing. it's just opinion.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: schuyler2

originally posted by: putnam6
Who is arguing that we have a right to know?

ATS used to be about calling out the BS and trying to find out what the phenomenon is.

Nearly everyone who is for "disclosure." It is a most common refrain. ATS has been rather ineffectual about finding out what the phenomenon is. Raising your fist at "The Man" and claiming a right to know hasn't really workd very well.

LOL you make it sound as if ATS "acts" on the discussions about UAPs and can push buttons. 

Was that ever part of its mission statement?

It's about the discussion and the exchange of ideas and thoughts of like-minded curious people it's not a movement it's just a message board

No more no less

Oh, Jesus! Let me revise my statement. "THE PEOPLE WHO POST ON ATS have been rather ineffectual about finding out what the phenomenon is. "

Or are you simply saying ATS is useless?

I quite agree with you here, schuyler2. No one has to tell anyone anything if they don't want to.

Not government, not fraternities, not churches, not individuals. No one, nada. Tough luck.

Morally, ethically and spiritually, everyone the ability to hold their tongue and keep secrets.

Australia:

Self-incrimination at common law .

The common law privilege against self-incrimination entitles a person to refuse to answer any question, or produce any document, if the answer would tend to incriminate that person. The privilege is an aspect of the broader common law right to silence, operating as a ‘general immunity’ from ‘being compelled on pain of punishment to answer questions posed by other persons or bodies’.

Historically, the privilege developed to protect an individual from testifying to her or his own guilt under the oppressive, inquisitorial methods of the English Star Chamber and ecclesiastic courts. In the leading Australian High Court case of Caltex, Chief Justice Mason and Justice Toohey noted that the privilege evolved as a rule of evidence guarding individuals from the adverse physical and spiritual consequences of self-incrimination, preventing one from ‘cutting one’s throat with one’s own tongue’.3

Although broadly referred to as the privilege against self-incrimination, the concept encompasses three interrelated privileges: a privilege against self-incrimination in criminal matters; a privilege against self-exposure, say to a civil or administrative penalty or fine; and, less commonly, a privilege against self-exposure to the forfeiture of an existing right (such as to land, personal property, an office for profit, or to a parliamentary office).

Source: Australian Law Reform Commission

originally posted by: ARM19688
What right would any government have to keep from the people of Earth the fact that we are not alone, that we are in contact with aliens? This is something which belongs to us all and not just a select greedy and corrupt few. What right do they have to control such information and withhold it from us?

originally posted by: schuyler2
What is this "right" based upon? Just your opinion. You have a "right" to an opinion, of course. It's a First Amendment issue. But your opinion doesn't give you any rights by itself. It's not codified anywhere. But classified information is. If you were to sue the government to release information, the governnment could present a copious amount of laws and regulations bolstering their case, including the big one: national security. You would have nothing at all. All you've got is that you don't like it.

OK so we don't have a right to information the government has deemed "classified". We've seen an example of that where the UAP Task Force wrote a report for the public that wasn't classified, then also wrote a classified version of the report. So they just withheld the classified information in the public report.

But later, an investication was conducted by the AARO All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, and it confirmed that some of the UAP sightings were related to classified projects, so of course the public can't get details about that. Regarding the claim of some UAPs being alien, the AARO report addresses that specifically and says there's no evidence any of them are alien.

So while classified earthly foreign or domestic technologies are not disclosed, what seemingly is disclosed lack of evidence of any of them being alien. So maybe the bigger issue regarding evidence of aliens is not so much the classification, but trust. Kirkpatrick did tell us about the (lack of) evidence for aliens, but nobody believes him. Well, none of the UFO believers believe him as far as I can tell, maybe some skeptics do.

'No evidence of aliens:' U.S.'s former top UFO hunter opens up in podcast interview

"The best thing that could have happened in this job is I found the aliens and I could have rolled them out, but there's none," Kirkpatrick replied. "There is no evidence of aliens and there's no evidence of the government conspiracy."

Rather, Kirkpatrick contended that the objects many witnesses mistake for extraterrestrial UFOs are actually new classified technology being tested in our skies, or even aircraft from rival nations being used to spy on the U.S. Remember the Chinese spy balloon episode?

Some of them could even be civilian drones, all of which Kirpatrick concedes are national security concerns.

So why do people not believe Kirkpatrick? Maybe because of people like David Grusch? He said Grusch had no evidence.

Dismissing Grusch and others' claims as "window dressing," Kirkpatrick re-iterated his stance that such rumors have circulated despite the lack of any evidence supporting the claims. However, even Grusch acknowledged during his testimony that laws regarding classified information constrained him from presenting hard evidence of a crash retrieval program.

Even skeptics don't doubt there are classified crash retreivals, but that doesn't automatically mean what's being retreived is alien.

I don't know if Kirkpatrick can be trusted on this issue or not, but I can say he seems to be right that Grusch apparently didn't have evidence to back up his claims. Maybe people told him stories, and he believed the stories, so I'm not even calling Grusch a liar, and neither did Kirkpatrick, when he talked about Grusch's beliefs here:

“This core group of people have influenced (Grusch), have told him this information,” Kirkpatrick said. “He may have misinterpreted things that people have said, or he may have just fallen to the influence of what these folks have been telling him.”

That actually sounds very plausible to me. Do you folks remember this image? It's suggestive of how Grusch may have come by his beliefs.



That's from the "Ghosts in the Machine" video, and they are supposed to represent psy-ops guys who mess with people's heads. One documented example is Richard Doty messing with the head of Paul Bennewitz, but it goes much deeper than that, think of the aviary, and ultimately the invisible college who are circulating these stories like the stories Grusch was told and apparently believed. For anybody not familiar with this topic, consider maybe if you believe in alien UFOs, it's because these spy-op guys want you to, they wanted Grusch to believe and to circulate his stories (without any evidence of course). This video covers part of the subject:

The Aviary: Disturbing Truth of UFO's | Digital Vortex

"This is the story of an ongoing counterintelligence operation, an operation to systematically infiltrate, coopt and profit from counterculture. This is the disturbing story of The Aviary."

Why are TPTB doing this? Because apparently when you see a UFO they want you to think of aliens, not about classified technology from Earth.

At about 1 hour and 2 minutes:

promoting the belief in UFOs also helped shape popular culture to such an extent that when somebody sees something that operates in the sky that they can't immediately identify, they don't think of it as classified Lockheed Martin projects most people just see a UFO

So just not telling us about the classified projects is not enough security. The psy-ops guys mess with our minds by circulating these stories to get us to not even think about classified projects when we see a UFO, but to think about the stories they told David Grusch instead. The modern psy-ops programs would also likely be classified, though I think most of the Bennewitz secrets from that old program are known by now, however, I still find it hard to believe anything Richard Doty says.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur


Why are TPTB doing this? Because apparently when you see a UFO they want you to think of aliens, not about classified technology from Earth.

Correct me if I am wrong but you believe what people see and tell, camera captures is classified technology from Earth? And aliens is a creation of a government to cover advanced technology ...because people report unusual sightings?

a reply to: schuyler2

What does self-determination have to do with another entity (government) keeping information from you?

Can take covid as one example. The government is gaslighting the population with a 'safe and effective' experimental mRNA therapy while suppressing well known safe and effective treatments. As global governance has been captured by corporate interests, I have a right to not consent to mandates and seek alternative options.

All sorts of things I don't like, including withholding information I would like to have. But do I have the "right" to that information? I can't see that anyone has established that.

Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers about Vietnam. The courts ruled that the public interest does override the government interest.

Edward Snowden expressed his self determination right with his leaks. It did come at a cost and made a lot of enemies in America. The rest of the world does not see it that way as he made a lot of friends as well.

A lot of the secrets in the UFO world have been locked up in corporate, making it harder to access for the general public that if it was in government. As a right of self defense, I am not going to forget what people like Phil Schneider say just because someone wants to keep it secret.

originally posted by: kwaka
a reply to: schuyler2

What does self-determination have to do with another entity (government) keeping information from you?

A lot of the secrets in the UFO world have been locked up in corporate, making it harder to access for the general public that if it was in government. As a right of self defense, I am not going to forget what people like Phil Schneider say just because someone wants to keep it secret.

A very good example of why not to keep secrets. If people such as yourself rely on the disinformation and nonsense trotted out by people like Phil Schneider for the truth, then we'll never get there. You may as well believe that Truman Bethurum had an affair with Aura Rhynes, from the planet Clarion, where everyone is a Christian and speaks all languages. Or that Steven Greer held an alien baby in his arms. Of course, this begs the question if you would recognize the truth if it were presented to you. I suspect a great many people, especially here, would blow it off. In fact, what is laughable about all this is that a great many truths about disclosure have already been presented to the public--and dismissed as lies by the people who claim to want the truth.

The botom line is that it's coming close to 100 years of UFO secrecy, and no one has managed to force the government to come clean yet. So good luck, but remember the curse of Phil Klass:

"The Last Will and Testament of Philip J. Klass To UFOlogists who publicly criticize meor who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath THE UFO CURSE: No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs that you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse."

a reply to: schuyler2

If people such as yourself rely on the disinformation and nonsense trotted out by people like Phil Schneider for the truth, then we'll never get there.

How do you really know where the disinformation starts and end with this topic? Accepting the official narrative will be safer for your job, as for getting any closer to the truth you have not even left the starting block in this race. There are lot more people than just Phil that have talked about their experience.

Overall, life in the universe is diverse, complex and evolving. You want to approach the hybridization program with ridicule, you can do that. It does keep your guard down should it actually be going on. John Mach found a lot of cases. Do you really find it too strange to consider that a more advanced species does treat humanity as humanity treats its lower species?

With the technological explosion that is going on, to just what aims exactly is it all going? Will it become a tool of enslavement or a tool of capability? Most likely a bit of both. While you remain dismissive of some of the more nefarious aspects of alien life, it does make it more likely you will be on the hook when taking the bait.

Has the deep state already been captured by an alien influences? With the results of the mass medical mRNA experiment going on, something in charge does not like humanity.

a reply to: schuyler2

"The Last Will and Testament of Philip J. Klass To UFOlogists who publicly criticize meor who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath THE UFO CURSE:

It is a curse he has had to live with being so skeptical with a closed mind. Always looking for some reason to not deal with the implications.

Is a curse from a bad place actually a blessing? Like how two wrongs can make a right?

Fictional Story of Truth-ONCE UPON A TIME

originally posted by: kwaka
a reply to: schuyler2

"The Last Will and Testament of Philip J. Klass To UFOlogists who publicly criticize meor who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath THE UFO CURSE:

It is a curse he has had to live with being so skeptical with a closed mind. Always looking for some reason to not deal with the implications.

Is a curse from a bad place actually a blessing? Like how two wrongs can make a right?

Umm, he's dead. I take it as more of a tongue-in-cheek dig at people who have no idea what they are asking for and wouldn't recognize "the truth" anyway. As long as those demanding disclosure are putting up charlatans like Phil Schneider and Steven Greer as paragons of virtue trying to bring "the truth" to the public, TPTB have nothing to worry about. Mission accomplished.

The extremeties of the Disclosure Movement are very much like the Sovereign Citizens who claim, when stopped for a traffic violation, that they're "traveling" not driving, and they have a "right to travel." This Kindergarten logic never works before a judge and is likely to earn a citation for contmpt of court. It's the same with the right to know. You don't have one. It's been nearly a hundred years and you still don't have one. There's the old adage about the definition of insanity being trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

You are still beating on this door claiming you have the "right to know." You don't. It doesn't work and never has. Get over it. Try something else.

a reply to: schuyler2

trying to bring "the truth" to the public, TPTB have nothing to worry about. Mission accomplished.

Maybe for you?

You are still beating on this door claiming you have the "right to know." You don't. It doesn't work and never has. Get over it. Try something else.

If you want to claim the right to not know, that is your prerogative. Why did you even start this thread? As for how you conclude that life does not have the right to understand life appears lost, dazed and confused. I am not in this thread expecting anything from you. There are a lot of inconsistencies, jurisdictions, loopholes and hidden sections to the legal system. Some people just know how to stand up for their rights better than others.

originally posted by: kwaka
a reply to: schuyler2

If you want to claim the right to not know, that is your prerogative. Why did you even start this thread? As for how you conclude that life does not have the right to understand life appears lost, dazed and confused. I am not in this thread expecting anything from you. There are a lot of inconsistencies, jurisdictions, loopholes and hidden sections to the legal system. Some people just know how to stand up for their rights better than others.

And some people don't understand what "rights" they actually have. I started this thread to suggest that you DO NOT have the "right to know." Thus far no one has proven otherwise.

Folks, what kind of the disclosure you are looking for?
Firstly, the government knows no much about aliens than any of us. Yes, they might have better images, videos, may be some radar data but that's about it.

Me, as someone who has seen multiple sightings, do not care what the government is to say or as one might put it, disclose anything.
Two reasons. One, is the authorities know jack. Only that they come from outer space visiting Earth to whatever reason and we are all suspect this to be the case.

Second, may be the government knows something, but that knowledge is going to be hurting if gets public...for example (one of the possibilities), facts would suggest, say, that we live in a simulation sort of. All our actions are predetermined. No free will. The computer code is accurate and ruthless. Inches away from your eyes is a screen displaying surroundings, people are bots and... you get the idea.

Question, how do you disclose something like that to the masses? Can you even hint at what is going on? It will cause massive outrage and what is more likely, people will say it is BS and not a disclosure.

But I personally believe, based on what I have seen, these are beings from other worlds, planets. The government does not know who and what UFO phenomenon is. No reversed engineered crafts or technologies, no captured alien bodies, no physical evidence, if we don't count video or photo proofs...it's all hype.

I do trust people words where they describe bizarre encounters. Just open ufocasebook...see for yourself. You cannot make these up.


cheers)

a reply to: schuyler2

And some people don't understand what "rights" they actually have. I started this thread to suggest that you DO NOT have the "right to know." Thus far no one has proven otherwise.

Where does your right come from to claim that others do not have a right to know? This is an expression of your will. just like it is an expression of my will to not consent to your will. What jurisdiction do you have to enforce such a claim?

In your jurisdiction you can put whatever limits you want on you. Where do you get the right to say what rights others have?

I am basing my rights on the UN declaration of human rights in which self determination is a valued part. What also has not been proven is that I do not a right to know.

a reply to: DaydreamerX

The government does not know who and what UFO phenomenon is. No reversed engineered crafts or technologies, no captured alien bodies, no physical evidence, if we don't count video or photo proofs...it's all hype.

So how do you resolve the Bell Labs claim that some guy done a test on Geranium to develop the transistor? This does not explainer how the N & P type Geranium was identified to develop the transistor and revolutionize the computer from the large, clunky and unrealizable valve based technology.

a reply to: DaydreamerX

When getting into the specifications of the device that cracked the NAZI enigma code during WW2, its hazy. As a ball park number, 200 - 2000 binary gates. Now the cheapest phone has 2 Billion...

a reply to: kwaka

I will try to eleborate in order to respond. So, you suggest that an alien technology was reverse engineered at some point? That would imply the craft and aliens do exist.

a reply to: DaydreamerX

So, you suggest that an alien technology was reverse engineered at some point? That would imply the craft and aliens do exist.

There is plenty out there for those that do want to know. Some of the exact details get hazy when sifting through the military disinformation and ridicule campaign used to maintain its competitive advantage. This status duo ain't going to last forever as pieces of the puzzle are spread all across the planet and beyond.

originally posted by: kwaka

So how do you resolve the Bell Labs claim that some guy done a test on Geranium to develop the transistor? This does not explainer how the N & P type Geranium was identified to develop the transistor and revolutionize the computer from the large, clunky and unrealizable valve based technology.

The previous invention of a solid state rectifier, conceptualisation of an electric band structure, vacuum tubes not reaching the desired frequencies and Russell Ohl's work occurring all prior to invention means it was likely to happen (sooner or later).

The fact the first transistor was a rough looking manual point contact device and it took them a few revisions to get to painting metal stripes seems to indicate at no point were they inspired by modern transistor design.