A Step Too Far

Let's quit pussyfooting around with this war. Let's go ahead and give Ukraine tactical nuclear weapons capable of hitting Moscow. Or maybe a few nuclear tipped ballistic missiles with multiple warheads.

How about we just go ahead and attack Moscow directly and quit F###ing around with them?

Let's go ahead and wipe Russia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe and the United States off the global map and be finished with this stupidity. Quit going about it incrementally and get it done right. Go ahead and blow everything and everybody to Hell. Oh, I forgot! There isn't as much money to be made by doing it that way.

originally posted by: annonentity
a reply to: charlest2

I find it offensive that the average westerner hasn't got a clue on how close they are from oblivion . Like mushrooms they are living in the dark and getting fed BS. because if they realized they would be horrified and get off their couches and do something. Without NATO involvement Moscow would not be getting bombed. Bombing Moscow is not a good idea for whoever does it.

If moscow didnt invade ukraine, moscow doesnt get bombed.

End of discussion, they had the eastern provinces and the peninsula and decided to try and take a bigger chunk at that point the west had to get involved because history shows appeasement never works.

a reply to: annonentity

"Without NATO involvement Moscow would not be getting bombed. Bombing Moscow is not a good idea for whoever does it."

Moscow is getting bombed?

I believe there were some pretty ineffectual drone attacks, but that's about all?

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Western countries almost certainly would respond to Russia using nuclear weapons.

Militarily...I disagree. Economically maybe, but not militarily. NATO is not some fraternity, it's an alliance, an alliance which protects member countries from attack by non-member countries. It is not a political / ideological arm of any one country. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. NATO is not going to escalated the Russia-Ukraine conflict unless that conflict spills over into NATO member countries.

Think about it this way, a geographically distant NATO country would have major objections to their being involved in a nuclear conflict with Russia unless their sovereignty was being threatened (which is the whole purpose of NATO, nothing more).

Now, if Russia decided to nuke a NATO country as part of their response to Ukraine, then all bets are off, but that isn't the case at present.

originally posted by: charlest2
Let's quit pussyfooting around with this war. Let's go ahead and give Ukraine tactical nuclear weapons capable of hitting Moscow. Or maybe a few nuclear tipped ballistic missiles with multiple warheads.

How about we just go ahead and attack Moscow directly and quit F###ing around with them?

Let's go ahead and wipe Russia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe and the United States off the global map and be finished with this stupidity. Quit going about it incrementally and get it done right. Go ahead and blow everything and everybody to Hell. Oh, I forgot! There isn't as much money to be made by doing it that way.

I think I sense the frustration in your mind.

this entire thing is idiotic at a severely elevated level. Russian's are killing Russians from a few miles away, and all for (nofaking clue why) in the end. If Putin win's he gets lots of land, he already has lots of land. I know there are strategic reasons to wanting some ports and other things, but to me, Putin seems to be thinking of him and now, not "the people, and long term". Hell, the longer this continues, the less "people" will exist in either nation. Killing kids seems to be the fun new pastime for many in power, but it's not a great plan for moving into the future. When you get old, and there is nobody to change your diaper, you end up dying in a puddle of your own sh!t. Sounds like a lovely way to plan retirement.

But there currently doesn't seem to be any off roads provided. US war hawks are giddy over this, as they get to "kill the enemy" without using the lives of our kids, though that usually isn't a determining factor based on history. But "the enemy" is still human. And without the need for more power, more money, more ....more, we wouldn't need war.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

using a nuke anywhere on the planet is madness, and something only a madman would do. But then, so is invading your neighbor and going to war with them. We live in interesting times.

But I have to run, I'm starting to lactate, and want to pump as much milk as I can so I can feed the human I have growing inside my anus. Welcome to the future.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Western countries almost certainly would respond to Russia using nuclear weapons.

Militarily...I disagree. Economically maybe, but not militarily. NATO is not some fraternity, it's an alliance, an alliance which protects member countries from attack by non-member countries. It is not a political / ideological arm of any one country. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. NATO is not going to escalated the Russia-Ukraine conflict unless that conflict spills over into NATO member countries.

Think about it this way, a geographically distant NATO country would have major objections to their being involved in a nuclear conflict with Russia unless their sovereignty was being threatened (which is the whole purpose of NATO, nothing more).

Now, if Russia decided to nuke a NATO country as part of their response to Ukraine, then all bets are off, but that isn't the case at present.

If Putin believes he can use nuclear weapons to gain advantage it goes massively against the interests and security of near neighbouring countries that are in NATO. The pressure to respond would be overwhelming.

The form that the response would take I think I'd open to question but it would need to be decisive enough to negate any perceived advantage of Putin using nuclear weapons.

Prosdiby not boots on the ground but overwhelming air support at a minimum.

At the point Putin used a nuclear weapon the dangers of not responding outweigh the dangers of escalation.

a reply to: network dude

using a nuke anywhere on the planet is madness, and something only a madman would do.

Completely agree! But we have madmen leading the parade at the moment. That's the problem. They aren't going away any time soon either. Someone, or some 'thing', needs to slap them out of their stupor, else they'll just keep doing more of the same.

That's where I was coming from. The next step beyond the inevitable.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

it's important to remember, Putin does not exist in a vacuum. The world is being run by quite a few madmen.
this is why we will devolve into cage matches and idiocracy level thinking much faster than anyone thought. I just think building the venue ahead of time and having the cages fortified is a prudent retirement strategy. You in?

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Well, that all goes back to the tactical theater nuke gyrations with the West and Russia throughout the 80's and 90's, particularly in Germany and Poland.

That was the whole basis for all that. I completely agree there would be much teeth gnashing and hand wringing over such a Russian attack, but don't think any actual nuclear response would come out of it until a NATO country is attacked outright. Putin knows better than this.

Putin is living in the wrong era. There is nothing Russia needs with Ukraine...other than the nationalist honor of saying it is his property. There are no resources in Ukraine that Russia doesn't already have in spades. Putin is trying to create the Soviet Union all over again.

a reply to: network dude

Sure. Let's just be sure to construct them out of lead.

Then, they can feel free to incinerate each other inside the cage while the rest of humanity watches from the comfort of their living rooms with little umbrella drinks.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Well, that all goes back to the tactical theater nuke gyrations with the West and Russia throughout the 80's and 90's, particularly in Germany and Poland.

That was the whole basis for all that. I completely agree there would be much teeth gnashing and hand wringing over such a Russian attack, but don't think any actual nuclear response would come out of it until a NATO country is attacked outright. Putin knows better than this.

Putin is living in the wrong era. There is nothing Russia needs with Ukraine...other than the nationalist honor of saying it is his property. There are no resources in Ukraine that Russia doesn't already have in spades. Putin is trying to create the Soviet Union all over again.

I doubt NATO would go nuclear over anything short of a major nuclear attack from Russia. It has no need to as it has such an overwhelming conventional advantage.

I completely agree with you last paragraph, all Russia has gained is a relatively small amount of land (the one thing it didn't need) and sacrificed thousands of lives , increased the NATO presence in it border and made itself much poorer for decades to come. There is no rational national interest for this war.

a reply to: network dude

It's not frustration so much as it is a disillusionment, or the realization that humanity, the relative masses of humanity, are not nearly as intelligent, sophisticated or humane as we are led, brainwashed to believe. That a very large portion of humanity are on a level akin to any other wild creature now or has ever existed. Superficial and self-serving.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Just one point, if he was to end up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost Russia to rebuild what he has destroyed?

originally posted by: charlest2
a reply to: network dude

It's not frustration so much as it is a disillusionment, or the realization that humanity, the relative masses of humanity, are not nearly as intelligent, sophisticated or humane as we are led, brainwashed to believe. That a very large portion of humanity are on a level akin to any other wild creature now or has ever existed. Superficial and self-serving.

I was having this talk with my wife and grandson in the pool yesterday. there are only a few things that make the transition from cave dwelling barbarians, to evolved beings in a utopian world. Greed being the first and second one. If we can ever learn to both be happy with what we have, and happy to help others, as they would reciprocate and be productive and happy, we could eliminate the difficult parts. But talk like that is currently something we aren't ready for, let alone finding a way to act on it.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Just one point, if he was to end up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost Russia to rebuild what he has destroyed?

Just one point, if the west ended up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost us to rebuild what we have destroyed?

And I suspect Putin would do a better job of rebuilding than BlackRock or ConAgra would.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Just one point, if he was to end up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost Russia to rebuild what he has destroyed?

more importantly, how much longer will Vlad live? And do the kids (who haven't been killed) really want what they may inherit? Seems not much long term planning has been used here.

originally posted by: charlest2

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Just one point, if he was to end up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost Russia to rebuild what he has destroyed?

Just one point, if the west ended up with Ukraine, or a significant part of it, how much is it going to cost us to rebuild what we have destroyed?

And I suspect Putin would do a better job of rebuilding than BlackRock or ConAgra would.

The cost of rebuilding what the west destroyed?

Zero as it's not the west bombing Ukraine.

a reply to: network dude

I think any "planning" involved simply telling Putin only what he wanted to hear.

a reply to: charlest2

How might the West end up with any part of Ukraine?

It's helping it to defend itself and it's independence.

Which bit have "we" destroyed?